StreetScooby 5 #1 October 15, 2007 http://www.islamicnetwork.com/ Interesting. Any thoughts out there? This is not a culture that wants to live with other cultures.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #2 October 16, 2007 Just as Christianity was not a culture that wanted to live with other cultures in the 12th through 14th centuries. The Crusades were not exactly an exercise in religious tolerance were they? Just playing devils advocate.... As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pop 0 #3 October 16, 2007 This is the 21st centurey. We live in a whole different world now where globalization plays a very important role in our everyday lives. Tolerance is the key nowadays. Hopefully Islam will catch up to "today", because it seems as it is still stuck in prehistoric times. ..I can only speak for what I observe from Islamic extremists. Just playing the devil... 7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funkcanna 0 #4 October 16, 2007 Quotehttp://www.islamicnetwork.com/ Interesting. Any thoughts out there? This is not a culture that wants to live with other cultures. Can you point to where specifically on the site you came to that conclusion? All I can see (on the forum part) is mainly westerners making offensive comments on something they know feck all about.To know requires proof To believe requires evidence To have faith requires neither. If you stick with that, we'll never be confused again Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Weezil 0 #5 October 16, 2007 Quote Post: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.islamicnetwork.com/ Interesting. Any thoughts out there? This is not a culture that wants to live with other cultures. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Can you point to where specifically on the site you came to that conclusion? All I can see (on the forum part) is mainly westerners making offensive comments on something they know feck all about. Quote I have to agree. I can't see anything immediately offensive about this website. I'm sure there may be some choice comments hidden deep within some of the discussion groups, but the same could be said of this website . I am wondering what the point of the OP was, it seems rather serene and less reactionary than other religious websites I've seen. The first paragraph here seems less than confrontational and just wondering where the "jihadi web site" thread label came from. If anything, I was offended by the sheer number of useless ringtones available these days Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #6 October 16, 2007 Quote Just as Christianity was not a culture that wanted to live with other cultures in the 12th through 14th centuries. The Crusades were not exactly an exercise in religious tolerance were they? Agreed. But, Christians had a reformation, a long time ago. Islam needs one, also, IMO. Quote Can you point to where specifically on the site you came to that conclusion? All I can see (on the forum part) is mainly westerners making offensive comments on something they know feck all about. Yes, I read the westerners comments. There were a couple of others that I can't find (just went back to look) that were pretty virulent. On the RHS of the web page are other listings (e.g., "Living Amongst the Kuffar is NOT Permissible ") that don't open for me, I'm assuming because I didn't sign into the site. At present, there's a thread going titled " sawing off the head of a person in the name of our Creator" (http://talk.islamicnetwork.com/showthread.php?p=124677#post124677) that contains yet more virulent talk by Muslims about non-Muslims. I think there is plenty of evidence to show that Islam is NOT a religion of peace to a significant number of its believers. Likewise, it's incredibly intolerant. Prime example being Saudi Arabia. You're not even allowed to be practice a religion besides Islam in that country. I'm pretty shocked that authorities have not shut down these sites. We are at war, and it was started on America with the attack on the Twin Towers. I believe we are in a culture clash, and we as a country need to see it as such. The concept of proportional force by our country at this time is ridiculous. We need to "kill the money", and do so aggressively. On our side, if this war was really about the oil, we'd own the oil in about 1 week.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #7 October 16, 2007 Quote Just as Christianity was not a culture that wanted to live with other cultures in the 12th through 14th centuries. The Crusades were not exactly an exercise in religious tolerance were they? Just playing devils advocate.... ...and to realign everyone's vision of history...by the 8th and 9th Century, Islamic empires marched all over eastern Europe, north Africa, into Spain, reaching the border of France before the first crusade was undertaken. So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funkcanna 0 #8 October 16, 2007 Quote At present, there's a thread going titled " sawing off the head of a person in the name of our Creator" (http://talk.islamicnetwork.com/showthread.php?p=124677#post124677) that contains yet more virulent talk by Muslims about non-Muslims.ek. The thread you are referring to was started by a american / westerner and the comments made by the muslims, to me, are pretty tame and in retaliation in comparison to posts on here and other websites classifying all Muslims as terrorists. Pigeon-holing all of Islam because of literally a handful of extremists is wrong. I live in an Islamic country and trust me, to tar all Muslims with the same brush as Al-Qaeda is shocking and down right ridiculous. yes, countries like Saudi and Iran have much stricter rules than the west regarding religion but so what? that is their way - it doesnt mean they want to kill people of other religions. Unlike the US government who seem hell bent on wiping out the Middle East (however avoiding touching Israel)To know requires proof To believe requires evidence To have faith requires neither. If you stick with that, we'll never be confused again Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Weezil 0 #9 October 16, 2007 Quote I think there is plenty of evidence to show that Islam is NOT a religion of peace to a significant number of its believers. Likewise, it's incredibly intolerant. Prime example being Saudi Arabia. You're not even allowed to be practice a religion besides Islam in that country. I'm pretty shocked that authorities have not shut down these sites. We are at war, and it was started on America with the attack on the Twin Towers. I believe we are in a culture clash, and we as a country need to see it as such. The concept of proportional force by our country at this time is ridiculous. We need to "kill the money", and do so aggressively. On our side, if this war was really about the oil, we'd own the oil in about 1 week. There is about 3 or 4 threads going on in one reply here. A broad critique of islam does not justify your lack of research and poor choice in finding this "jihadi website". I suggest you find a better example of a religious extremist website (there's plenty out there for all religions) and you may get a better response. The last statment proclaiming islamic intolerance in Saudi Arabia, yet sanctioning the use of disproportionate force and "killing the money" appears at best contradictory. Care to try again? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #10 October 16, 2007 Quote A broad critique of islam does not justify your lack of research and poor choice in finding this "jihadi website". This site was featured in an article in the NYTimes. That's where I came across it. With my regards to "lack of research", as I stated earlier, there is plenty of evidence available to show that Islam is not a peaceful religion, nor is it a tolerant one, in practice. Quote I suggest you find a better example of a religious extremist website (there's plenty out there for all religions) and you may get a better response. What other religion is actively exporting violence in the name of their religion? Quote The last statment proclaiming islamic intolerance in Saudi Arabia, yet sanctioning the use of disproportionate force and "killing the money" appears at best contradictory. When our country is being attacked, we need to effectively defend ourselves. Our country IS being attacked by extremists primarily funded by the "Central Bank" of Saudi Arabia. And, this bank is funding extremists as an endeavor of religious charity. This is not a culture that you can negotiate with. To keep the thread on the track that I intended - my point is Islam is not a religion that can live with other cultures. They can't even live with their own "sub-cultures" (i.e., Sunni vs. Shia). Islam needs a reformation.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #11 October 16, 2007 Quote Pigeon-holing all of Islam because of literally a handful of extremists is wrong. I used to think so, also. I no longer do. The observation that swayed my opinion was the seemingly never ending series of "fatwahs" issued by Islamic religious authorities. In general, they actively encourage followers of Islam to kill people that don't follow Islam. Granted, only a fraction of Muslims are acting on these edicts, but the fact they were even issued by these authorities shows Islam is not a religion of peace, nor a tolerant one. Quote I live in an Islamic country and trust me, to tar all Muslims with the same brush as Al-Qaeda is shocking and down right ridiculous. So, have any violent fatwahs been issued by religous authorities in your country? Quote yes, countries like Saudi and Iran have much stricter rules than the west regarding religion but so what? that is their way - it doesnt mean they want to kill people of other religions. Iran continues to call for the complete destruction of Israel. Uhm, isn't that advocating the death of non-Muslims? Get caught on the street during prayer time in Riyadh, and you're going to have a violent experience. Even Shiites (Muslism) are actively discriminated against in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia continues to actively export its virulent brand of Islam. If they wanted to keep it to themselves, I'm all for that. Doesn't appear that's the case. Quote Unlike the US government who seem hell bent on wiping out the Middle East (however avoiding touching Israel) Nor do we touch Egypt, to whom we also give billions of dollars a year. If the US wanted to wipe out the Middle East, it wouldn't take long. The fact that we haven't already disproves this point.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funkcanna 0 #12 October 16, 2007 QuoteIran continues to call for the complete destruction of Israel. Uhm, isn't that advocating the death of non-Muslims? Isnt how Israel actually came to have "their" land by killing a shit load of Palestinians and having the US support them fully advocating the killing of Muslims? QuoteNor do we touch Egypt, to whom we also give billions of dollars a year. If the US wanted to wipe out the Middle East, it wouldn't take long. The fact that we haven't already disproves this point. As strange as this may sound the US arent as stupid as everyone thinks. Wiping the region out bit by bit is a much bigger money earner, plus their game is to turn the world against Islam and the Middle East so that when they do fire in a nuke at Iran they have more backing. Its funny how im not scared of Iran having nuclear weapons but the fact of the US having them makes me scared shitless - those are the crazy bastards who would use them..."in the name of peace"To know requires proof To believe requires evidence To have faith requires neither. If you stick with that, we'll never be confused again Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Weezil 0 #13 October 16, 2007 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A broad critique of islam does not justify your lack of research and poor choice in finding this "jihadi website". -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This site was featured in an article in the NYTimes. That's where I came across it. With my regards to "lack of research", as I stated earlier, there is plenty of evidence available to show that Islam is not a peaceful religion, nor is it a tolerant one, in practice. Well, if it was featured in an article by the New york times, why didn't you say so? You could of claimed it was their poor research and not your own. More to the point, it would of been more interesting if you provided the link so we could of evaluated their critique and not the lack of yours Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I suggest you find a better example of a religious extremist website (there's plenty out there for all religions) and you may get a better response. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What other religion is actively exporting violence in the name of their religion? Plenty, is the obvious answer. Christianity has a bloodthirsty reputation, but it would be ridiculous to try and tar all practicing modern-day christians with that brush. If you are talking about fact, and by this I mean what is actually quoted in religious text and not practiced by fundamantalist nutters, then the Koran is one of the few religious texts to preach tolerance and respect to people from other religions. Quote The last statment proclaiming islamic intolerance in Saudi Arabia, yet sanctioning the use of disproportionate force and "killing the money" appears at best contradictory. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When our country is being attacked, we need to effectively defend ourselves. Our country IS being attacked by extremists primarily funded by the "Central Bank" of Saudi Arabia. And, this bank is funding extremists as an endeavor of religious charity. This is not a culture that you can negotiate with. To keep the thread on the track that I intended - my point is Islam is not a religion that can live with other cultures. They can't even live with their own "sub-cultures" (i.e., Sunni vs. Shia). Islam needs a reformation. You have not kept this thread on track at all. You have directed our attention to a web-site that for all intentions seems very moderate and rather interesting. There is nothing in your criticism of islam that is reflected in the editorial of this website. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #14 October 16, 2007 Quote Isnt how Israel actually came to have "their" land by killing a shit load of Palestinians and having the US support them fully advocating the killing of Muslims? That topic is worthy of another thread. My current understanding is alot of Palestinians left of their "own will", after their religious authorities told them to get out or be killed because they shouldn't live with Jews. Personally, I see this as yet another example of Islam's lack of tolerance with other cultures. But, again, that's a very nasty situation there in general, and it been going on for thousands of years. I personally think the whole situation is ridiculous. Quote As strange as this may sound the US arent as stupid as everyone thinks. Wiping the region out bit by bit is a much bigger money earner, I don't see that as a fair statement. I can understand how some people can think that, but in reality the US can make much more money focusing on free markets and growing them. Engaging in war doesn't bring nearly the returns that pursuit of free markets generates. Quote plus their game is to turn the world against Islam and the Middle East so that when they do fire in a nuke at Iran they have more backing. What would be in this for the US? Quote Its funny how im not scared of Iran having nuclear weapons Then, why are all the Sunni regimes scared to death of this thought? Quote but the fact of the US having them makes me scared shitless - those are the crazy bastards who would use them..."in the name of peace" Using nuclear weapons is not a practical approach, and our leaders know this.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #15 October 16, 2007 Quote Well, if it was featured in an article by the New york times, why didn't you say so? LOL! Quote More to the point, it would of been more interesting if you provided the link so we could of evaluated their critique and not the lack of yours http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/15/us/15net.html?ex=1350100800&en=9d040360579f3a9b&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss You have not kept this thread on track at all. To reiterate, the intended track of this thread is: In current practice, Islam is not a religion of peace and tolerance. It needs a reformation, and badly so. You have directed our attention to a web-site that for all intentions seems very moderate and rather interesting. There is nothing in your criticism of islam that is reflected in the editorial of this website. I can believe this is a moderate jihadi web site, compared to the other web site discussed in the NYTimes article. I have to disagree with your assessment of the content. Maybe that's the best we're going to do in this discussion.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funkcanna 0 #16 October 16, 2007 Quote I don't see that as a fair statement. I can understand how some people can think that, but in reality the US can make much more money focusing on free markets and growing them. Engaging in war doesn't bring nearly the returns that pursuit of free markets generates. US befriend Islamic Nation, US train Islamic Nation, US SELL WEAPONS TO Islamic Nation, US Bomb the living shit out of said Islamic Nation and start "rebuilding" them which involves more selling of weapons...so on and so forth - oh yeah and they also get a grasp on ensuring the Oil dont go anywhere. then they rinse, and repeat. Quote Then, why are all the Sunni regimes scared to death of this thought? Dont get me wrong, I dont feel Nuclear weapons should be possed by anyone, no good can come of it - however i genuinely beleive the next Nuke to be fired will by by the US - just as the first was... Quote Using nuclear weapons is not a practical approach, and our leaders know this. I hope your right mate.To know requires proof To believe requires evidence To have faith requires neither. If you stick with that, we'll never be confused again Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #17 October 16, 2007 Quote Agreed. But, Christians had a reformation, a long time ago. Islam needs one, also, IMO. Ah yes, and now Christians are a homogeneous group of peaceful and tolerant people. We were listening to a Christian radio station the other night, and the speaker was saying that we don't need to convert everyone in the country in order to make this a Christian nation; we only need to convert those who are in power (or make sure that only Christians ever get into power). I suppose I could draw conclusions about Christianity from this broadcast, but I suspect that not all Christians agree with his views. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #18 October 16, 2007 Quote US befriend Islamic Nation, US train Islamic Nation, US SELL WEAPONS TO Islamic Nation, The US isn't the only country that does this. All major powers do. Clearly there is a market there for Islamic countries to protect themselves from each other. Quote US Bomb the living shit out of said Islamic Nation and start "rebuilding" them which involves more selling of weapons...so on and so forth - I'm going to call this a bit off topic thread. Happy to continue discussing it in another thread. Quote oh yeah and they also get a grasp on ensuring the Oil dont go anywhere. then they rinse, and repeat. DItto with this, also. I'm not dismissing the thought, but it would be better to discuss this in another thread.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #19 October 16, 2007 Quote Ah yes, and now Christians are a homogeneous group of peaceful and tolerant people. At least they're not out killing people in the name of their religion. Well, not at this point in history. Quote We were listening to a Christian radio station the other night, and the speaker was saying that we don't need to convert everyone in the country in order to make this a Christian nation; we only need to convert those who are in power (or make sure that only Christians ever get into power). While being founded by Christians, I don't see the US as a Christian country, nor do I wish it to be so. I very much do approve of the use of the word God in our principles. That doesn't mean Christian. Quote I suppose I could draw conclusions about Christianity from this broadcast, but I suspect that not all Christians agree with his views. I'm not a Christian, nor do I approve of the views you highlighted. But, they're not out there advocating the violent destruction of non-Christians.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #20 October 16, 2007 QuoteI'm not a Christian, nor do I approve of the views you highlighted. But, they're not out there advocating the violent destruction of non-Christians. Just because some outspoken Islamic extremists advocate violence against non-Muslims, that does not mean that all Muslims share this view. In fact, I believe that most Muslims are against violence and terrorism. Here are some interesting websites about Muslims in America (where they seem to be doing ok living among other cultures)... http://www.muslimsforamerica.us/ http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6064414 http://www.muslimsinamerica.org/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #21 October 16, 2007 Quote Just because some outspoken Islamic extremists advocate violence against non-Muslims, that does not mean that all Muslims share this view. In fact, I believe that most Muslims are against violence and terrorism. It Islamic religious authorities that are advocating the violence. Thank goodness only a small fraction of Muslims are acting on these never ending streams of violent fatwahs. That's the issue being discussed here.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #22 October 16, 2007 QuoteIsnt how Israel actually came to have "their" land by killing a shit load of Palestinians and having the US support them fully advocating the killing of Muslims? That’s the hypocrisy of it all. We bend what we view to be right and wrong to fit with what is convenient for us at the moment, and the sheep will follow. We think Muslims are backwards because they want to live there way, but we are so sure that are way is the right way and we are willing to show you that as we put a gun to your child’s head. Be free or die 3000 people died on 9-11 it is one the biggest tragedies in US history right? How many inocent lives have we taken in this war, or in any of the other unnecessary, unjust, financially motivated wars we have started? That’s the disconnect that I find with the blind and patriotic. There set of morals changes to fit their needs and bends depending on whom they feel the most camaraderie with at that moment.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #23 October 16, 2007 QuoteIt Islamic religious authorities that are advocating the violence. Thank goodness only a small fraction of Muslims are acting on these never ending streams of violent fatwahs. That's the issue being discussed here. So the problem seems to be those who are advocating violence in the name of Islam, but not the religion itself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #24 October 16, 2007 I'm not sure how to reply here, Darius. You have shown yourself in our prior discussions to be a thoughtful person. I've actually learned some things from our conversations. I understand there is alot of hatred in the Muslim world around Israel. I will not sit here and tell you I understand that situation. My current understanding is it's been going on for thousands of years, and intolerance on both sides continues to this day. Quote we are willing to show you that as we put a gun to your child’s head. Be free or die That's not a fair statement. At least we're not cutting children's heads off with knives, as is being done by Islamic extremists. Quote 3000 people died on 9-11 it is one the biggest tragedies in US history right? That's correct. Because of fatwahs issued by Islamic religious authorities that were actually acted on. Quote How many inocent lives have we taken in this war, or in any of the other unnecessary, unjust, financially motivated wars we have started? The reasons for the Bush administration's decision to invade Iraq have been discounted. If those peaceful Sunnis and Shiites could start living together, I'd be happy to see us get out. Unfortunately, their leaders aren't advocating that. I'm more than happy to discuss this in another thread. To reiterate, my point here is: Islam is not a peaceful tolerant religion as practiced today. It's needs a reformation at its highest levels within the Middle Eastern community.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #25 October 16, 2007 Quote Here are some interesting websites about Muslims in America (where they seem to be doing ok living among other cultures)... http://www.muslimsforamerica.us/ http://www.npr.org/....php?storyId=6064414 http://www.muslimsinamerica.org/ These look very interesting. I will be reading them. Thanks for sharing.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
