wesclimb 0 #1 August 28, 2006 I thought this was an interesting read and wanted to pass this on. BALTIMORE SUN August 27, 2006 IN A WAR GONE BAD, SACRIFICE IS NOT IN VAIN By Frank Schaeffer SALISBURY, Mass. // The Marine Corps has just announced that it is calling back several thousand Marines from inactive reserve units. After Sept. 11, all our president asked of most Americans was to go shopping, travel and maintain the economy. But our service members are asked to make sacrifices most Americans wouldn't dream of. Many Americans are saying that our troops are sacrificing in vain. They are wrong. So are those who claim that if you want to support the troops, you have to support the president. Both misunderstand the meaning of military service in our democracy. My youngest son, John, joined the Marines in 1999. Bill Clinton was president. The nightmare of Sept. 11 was still in the realm of the unthinkable. John was trained to serve as a Marine wherever he might be sent, not for any particular war. He served five years and returned safely from two combat tours in Afghanistan - a "good war," according to most pundits and opinion polls - and after a mission in Iraq, a war gone "bad." I was fortunate. My son survived. A friend lost her only child. Mindy Evnin's son was killed in Iraq. On a sweltering day last month, my wife and I drove from our home in Massachusetts to Burlington, Vt., to visit Mark's grave. Standing in front of that young Marine's headstone, I was overwhelmed by sorrow, fury at the mishandling of so many aspects of the war by our political leaders and by gratitude for Mark's life well-lived. Those emotions aren't as contradictory as they might seem. I e-mailed a civilian friend about visiting Mark's grave. "To me," he answered, "the soldiers who are dying in Iraq should not have been there in the first place. ... If they die, they will have died in vain because the war is all a tissue of lies and/or failed policies." Did Mark and thousands of others die in vain? We need to take a step back from the bitter debate over the Iraq war and look at the deeper meaning of service. Does it change when wars go badly? If Mark had been killed in Afghanistan, would that have been a more noble sacrifice than being killed in Iraq? Maybe it would be helpful to consider the significance of service in a less politicized context. When a fireman runs up the stairs while everyone else runs down, the value of his action is unrelated to who started the fire, or whether those saved are "worthy." And the morality of his action doesn't depend on his motives or whether his leaders are truthful or wise. It is all about what he does once he's called upon to act on behalf of all of us. While we are busy looking out for ourselves, that fireman is busy looking out for us. His willingness to serve is a victory for community, social responsibility, compassion and bravery. What did Mark die for? He did not die for George Bush's ever-changing rationalizations: "finding WMD," "freeing Iraq" or "bringing democracy to the Middle East." And in all probability, if he was like my son, Mark never thought much about why he volunteered. The point is, he did, and in combat he acted on the belief that the Marines standing next to him were more important than he was - and, by extension that his country was more important than his individual right to comfort and safety. Service in our democracy is not about politics. My son's volunteering in the Clinton era, then being sent to two "Bush wars," one "good" and the other "bad," handily illustrates the fact that the act of volunteering has nothing to do with fighting any war in particular and everything to do with service for service's sake. Volunteering is a pre-political statement. And if you believe that American democracy is worthwhile, no matter what its imperfections, then the act of volunteering to be sent wherever your country needs you must be acknowledged as a priceless gift from the individual citizen to his or her country. This gift's morality doesn't depend on the rightness or wrongness of any war but on the soldier's high-stakes commitment to the value of our democratic experiment. Mindy wrote me: "I don't know if Mark was a 'hero.' He did what he was asked to do, and he did it without hesitation. ... Maybe that is heroic." It was. Our troops volunteer with no guarantee of success. They serve with or without support from other Americans. Now, some are being recalled involuntarily to participate in the fragile exercise of self-rule by equipping our government "of the people" to take action. There are several thousand Marines who thought that their time of duty was done. Now they are going to be sent back into combat. They will be unhappy, even angry. Some will believe the president is wrong to send them, and their families will be sick with worry. But our Marines will go. Their lives - and, inevitably for some, their deaths - present us with a stark question: Is citizenship only about enjoying personal preferences, or should we take responsibility for those around us, and by extension for our country? We don't all need to serve in the military, but in the face of the sacrifice of those who do, what is our excuse for just going shopping? How we answer the question posed to us by their service will decide the health, morality and ultimately the survival of our democracy. (Frank Schaeffer is a writer. His forthcoming novel is "Baby Jack." Contact him at frankschaeffer.com) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KenGoff 0 #2 August 29, 2006 Good one. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #3 August 29, 2006 powerfull post. a must read. death of any kind is never good. a life given for priciples believed in and given honorably by a soldier is worthy of great respect and gratitude, but at the same time it is a tragedy. We are in the next millenium. If world leaders are still resorting to "wars and battles" in an effort to create Peace, then surely something, ( or more accurately many things ) are wrong. Any recall of men and women who have already served at least 2 years of service, and have honorable discharges, must include the option for that veteran to decline... I wonder what percentage re enlist and what percentage say, ' no thanks'.... Will this impact Frank Schaeffer's son? and how does the entire family, as well as the Marine, feel about it? skydive softly, skydive often, skydive with friends jmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #4 August 29, 2006 Utter horse shit. Why is it that so many Americans feel the need to turn Soldiers into Team America Heros. The act of joining up is a decision made for many reasons. I can't find a job, I want to get away from home/ this town, I want adventure, Prison or the millitary (in some Armys), Chicks dig the uniform, I want to be like my brother/father/whoever, See the world, want to see what action is like, I want a career, I want better education....and so on. Quotevolunteering has nothing to do with fighting any war in particular and everything to do with service for service's sake. Give me a break Maybe for a few idealists but for the majority this is nonsense. There are heros and cowards in every Army sometimes in the same man. Soldiers do a job, its a pretty thankless one but it doesn't make them heros just because they do it and it sure as f**k doesn't make them all idealistic patriots.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #5 August 29, 2006 Some pretty poor logic in here. Regardless of the individual's motivations, dying in a war that more reflects the personal agenda of a leader gone astray than the will of a nation is just plain wrong. The kind of blind patriotism that makes someone willing to die without questioning the cause is more like brainwashing than some sort of honor. If someone gave me some high and mighty speech justifying their sacrifice regardless of the merits of the situation - I'd say they are a mindless drone. The twists and turns that writer goes thru in an attempt to justify the results are pathetic." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #6 August 29, 2006 QuoteUtter horse shit.< That's very diplomatic of you Skyrad. Can I now send you the cleaning bill for my screen? 1xWetwipe = 2p. Paypal's fine. 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #7 August 29, 2006 QuoteUtter horse shit. Why is it that so many Americans feel the need to turn Soldiers into Team America Heros. Vietnam. The veterans of that war were treated despicably. However, I can say that the vets of that war have risen to the challenge of that historical landscape, and are quickly proving themselves to be the "next greatest generation" in the wake of the WWII vets. I speak from my own direct account. I hope that the vets of OEF/OIF will be able to (and worth of) picking up the torch when it is their turn to aid the next generation of US veterans. QuoteThe act of joining up is a decision made for many reasons. I can't find a job, I want to get away from home/ this town, I want adventure, Prison or the millitary (in some Armys), Chicks dig the uniform, I want to be like my brother/father/whoever, See the world, want to see what action is like, I want a career, I want better education....and so on. That may be, but those that join "for the college money" cannot say they were blind to what the US armed forces were designed to do: engage and destroy the enemy. As for the article, it was a nice read, but an attempt to have "something for everyone".So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #8 August 29, 2006 Mate, I'm not attacking the Soldiers in any way shape or form, just the argument in the article.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #9 August 29, 2006 QuoteMate, I'm not attacking the Soldiers in any wayQuote No worries, I never thought you were. Quote shape or form, just the argument in the article. Understandable, argue away... So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #10 August 29, 2006 I missed my calling in the diplomatic corp, what can I sayWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vortexring 0 #11 August 29, 2006 You can bloody well say 'here's your 2p' thank you very much! 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #12 August 30, 2006 Why is it that so many Americans feel the need to turn Soldiers into Team America Heros. The act of joining up is a decision made for many reasons.Quote regardless of the reasons for which a person joins the military that fact remains that they volunteer to make great sacrifices to protect others, including those that sit there and bad mouth them on a regular basis. Amercian soldiers fight to defend people taht hate them, people that could care less whether or not they ever make it home to their families, people that would rather spit on them than give them the time of day. Sounds like a pretty heroic thing to me.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,653 #13 August 30, 2006 QuoteWhy is it that so many Americans feel the need to turn Soldiers into Team America Heros. The act of joining up is a decision made for many reasons.Quote regardless of the reasons for which a person joins the military that fact remains that they volunteer to make great sacrifices to protect others, including those that sit there and bad mouth them on a regular basis. Amercian soldiers fight to defend people taht hate them, people that could care less whether or not they ever make it home to their families, people that would rather spit on them than give them the time of day. Sounds like a pretty heroic thing to me. Classic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. There's been almost no badmouthing of American or British soldiers except for those charged or found guilty of criminal offenses. The criticism has been uniformly leveled at the incompetent leaders who put the soldiers in there in the first place, in a situation which has deteriorated to the point that whatever we do, we look bad. We have the best military in the history of the world, led by a bunch of nincompoops.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #14 August 31, 2006 Classic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,653 #15 August 31, 2006 QuoteClassic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that? Easy. YOU and others on the right repeatedly try to portray criticism of the Iraq war as lack of support for the troops. YOU even claimed that many here are "badmouthing" the troops (your words). That is simply untrue. The troops are fine, it's their leaders who got them into this mess that are incompetent.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #16 August 31, 2006 Lets clarify a little, it is the "civlian" leadership who upon being voted into office by the people they are to represent who put the people and military into this mess.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,442 #17 August 31, 2006 >it is the "civlian" leadership who upon being voted into office by the >people they are to represent who put the people and military into this mess. Agreed, and that is an important distinction to make. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #18 August 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteClassic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that? Easy. YOU and others on the right repeatedly try to portray criticism of the Iraq war as lack of support for the troops. YOU even claimed that many here are "badmouthing" the troops (your words). That is simply untrue. The troops are fine, it's their leaders who got them into this mess that are incompetent. And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,442 #19 August 31, 2006 >And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. You've become a leftie? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #20 August 31, 2006 Quote>And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. You've become a leftie? No, but you just confirmed what I said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #21 August 31, 2006 Mr. Kallend, I usually try and steer away from arguments about the administration and leadership, in the past, yes I very well may have criticized a few people who took shots at the leadership, but not recently that I can recall. What I am asking you here though is when I said anyone in particular was bad mouthing the troops in my original post in this thread. I was talking about large groups of people in general but not making any accusations toward anyone in particular, especially anyone in this thread. So that's twice now in this particular thread that you have completely twisted the meaning of something I have said and I would greatly appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so. So once again I will restate what I have said, everyone who joins my military is volunteering to make substatial sacrifices to help others, anyone who does so may very well be consider a hero in some respect. That's it, that's all I have said here, I have not accused anyone of being unpatriotic nor am I using any "right wing" tactic to make people look that way.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,653 #22 August 31, 2006 QuoteMr. Kallend, I usually try and steer away from arguments about the administration and leadership, in the past, yes I very well may have criticized a few people who took shots at the leadership, but not recently that I can recall. What I am asking you here though is when I said anyone in particular was bad mouthing the troops in my original post in this thread. I was talking about large groups of people in general but not making any accusations toward anyone in particular, especially anyone in this thread. So that's twice now in this particular thread that you have completely twisted the meaning of something I have said and I would greatly appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so. So once again I will restate what I have said, everyone who joins my military is volunteering to make substatial sacrifices to help others, anyone who does so may very well be consider a hero in some respect. That's it, that's all I have said here, I have not accused anyone of being unpatriotic nor am I using any "right wing" tactic to make people look that way. So who are these people that, in your words, "sit there and bad mouth them on a regular basis". I have yet to meet one person who badmouths our troops, and I meet hundreds of people daily in the course of my work.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #23 September 1, 2006 There are plenty who bad mouth the troops and even troops who bad mouth the troops. I would disagree with Dan and say there have been some who bad mouth troops here, I had the displeasure of conversing with a couple. Consider your self lucky not to have to talk to them in any capacity. For political veiws aside, I am sure your like all Fathers of a member of the Military, willing to defend their moral and physical being as if it was the day they where born. I commend you and all Parents of members of the Military. Sorry to those who care about the side track of the thread.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #24 September 1, 2006 PM sent And I second what soon to be Mr. Cline said in commending the parents of service members, parents probably have it worse off at times than do their children when it comes to the emotional hardship of a deployment. And Mr. Kallend your son definitely has my respect, as I've gathered from your previous posts in other threads that he is an 11C(correct me if I'm wrong). Well I started out as an 11C in Ranger Battalion and 3rd Infantry so there's always a special place in my heart for those goofy little gun bunny's. Gotta love 'em!!History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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Gawain 0 #7 August 29, 2006 QuoteUtter horse shit. Why is it that so many Americans feel the need to turn Soldiers into Team America Heros. Vietnam. The veterans of that war were treated despicably. However, I can say that the vets of that war have risen to the challenge of that historical landscape, and are quickly proving themselves to be the "next greatest generation" in the wake of the WWII vets. I speak from my own direct account. I hope that the vets of OEF/OIF will be able to (and worth of) picking up the torch when it is their turn to aid the next generation of US veterans. QuoteThe act of joining up is a decision made for many reasons. I can't find a job, I want to get away from home/ this town, I want adventure, Prison or the millitary (in some Armys), Chicks dig the uniform, I want to be like my brother/father/whoever, See the world, want to see what action is like, I want a career, I want better education....and so on. That may be, but those that join "for the college money" cannot say they were blind to what the US armed forces were designed to do: engage and destroy the enemy. As for the article, it was a nice read, but an attempt to have "something for everyone".So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #8 August 29, 2006 Mate, I'm not attacking the Soldiers in any way shape or form, just the argument in the article.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #9 August 29, 2006 QuoteMate, I'm not attacking the Soldiers in any wayQuote No worries, I never thought you were. Quote shape or form, just the argument in the article. Understandable, argue away... So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #10 August 29, 2006 I missed my calling in the diplomatic corp, what can I sayWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vortexring 0 #11 August 29, 2006 You can bloody well say 'here's your 2p' thank you very much! 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #12 August 30, 2006 Why is it that so many Americans feel the need to turn Soldiers into Team America Heros. The act of joining up is a decision made for many reasons.Quote regardless of the reasons for which a person joins the military that fact remains that they volunteer to make great sacrifices to protect others, including those that sit there and bad mouth them on a regular basis. Amercian soldiers fight to defend people taht hate them, people that could care less whether or not they ever make it home to their families, people that would rather spit on them than give them the time of day. Sounds like a pretty heroic thing to me.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,653 #13 August 30, 2006 QuoteWhy is it that so many Americans feel the need to turn Soldiers into Team America Heros. The act of joining up is a decision made for many reasons.Quote regardless of the reasons for which a person joins the military that fact remains that they volunteer to make great sacrifices to protect others, including those that sit there and bad mouth them on a regular basis. Amercian soldiers fight to defend people taht hate them, people that could care less whether or not they ever make it home to their families, people that would rather spit on them than give them the time of day. Sounds like a pretty heroic thing to me. Classic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. There's been almost no badmouthing of American or British soldiers except for those charged or found guilty of criminal offenses. The criticism has been uniformly leveled at the incompetent leaders who put the soldiers in there in the first place, in a situation which has deteriorated to the point that whatever we do, we look bad. We have the best military in the history of the world, led by a bunch of nincompoops.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #14 August 31, 2006 Classic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,653 #15 August 31, 2006 QuoteClassic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that? Easy. YOU and others on the right repeatedly try to portray criticism of the Iraq war as lack of support for the troops. YOU even claimed that many here are "badmouthing" the troops (your words). That is simply untrue. The troops are fine, it's their leaders who got them into this mess that are incompetent.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #16 August 31, 2006 Lets clarify a little, it is the "civlian" leadership who upon being voted into office by the people they are to represent who put the people and military into this mess.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,442 #17 August 31, 2006 >it is the "civlian" leadership who upon being voted into office by the >people they are to represent who put the people and military into this mess. Agreed, and that is an important distinction to make. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #18 August 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteClassic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that? Easy. YOU and others on the right repeatedly try to portray criticism of the Iraq war as lack of support for the troops. YOU even claimed that many here are "badmouthing" the troops (your words). That is simply untrue. The troops are fine, it's their leaders who got them into this mess that are incompetent. And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,442 #19 August 31, 2006 >And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. You've become a leftie? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #20 August 31, 2006 Quote>And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. You've become a leftie? No, but you just confirmed what I said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #21 August 31, 2006 Mr. Kallend, I usually try and steer away from arguments about the administration and leadership, in the past, yes I very well may have criticized a few people who took shots at the leadership, but not recently that I can recall. What I am asking you here though is when I said anyone in particular was bad mouthing the troops in my original post in this thread. I was talking about large groups of people in general but not making any accusations toward anyone in particular, especially anyone in this thread. So that's twice now in this particular thread that you have completely twisted the meaning of something I have said and I would greatly appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so. So once again I will restate what I have said, everyone who joins my military is volunteering to make substatial sacrifices to help others, anyone who does so may very well be consider a hero in some respect. That's it, that's all I have said here, I have not accused anyone of being unpatriotic nor am I using any "right wing" tactic to make people look that way.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,653 #22 August 31, 2006 QuoteMr. Kallend, I usually try and steer away from arguments about the administration and leadership, in the past, yes I very well may have criticized a few people who took shots at the leadership, but not recently that I can recall. What I am asking you here though is when I said anyone in particular was bad mouthing the troops in my original post in this thread. I was talking about large groups of people in general but not making any accusations toward anyone in particular, especially anyone in this thread. So that's twice now in this particular thread that you have completely twisted the meaning of something I have said and I would greatly appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so. So once again I will restate what I have said, everyone who joins my military is volunteering to make substatial sacrifices to help others, anyone who does so may very well be consider a hero in some respect. That's it, that's all I have said here, I have not accused anyone of being unpatriotic nor am I using any "right wing" tactic to make people look that way. So who are these people that, in your words, "sit there and bad mouth them on a regular basis". I have yet to meet one person who badmouths our troops, and I meet hundreds of people daily in the course of my work.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #23 September 1, 2006 There are plenty who bad mouth the troops and even troops who bad mouth the troops. I would disagree with Dan and say there have been some who bad mouth troops here, I had the displeasure of conversing with a couple. Consider your self lucky not to have to talk to them in any capacity. For political veiws aside, I am sure your like all Fathers of a member of the Military, willing to defend their moral and physical being as if it was the day they where born. I commend you and all Parents of members of the Military. Sorry to those who care about the side track of the thread.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #24 September 1, 2006 PM sent And I second what soon to be Mr. Cline said in commending the parents of service members, parents probably have it worse off at times than do their children when it comes to the emotional hardship of a deployment. And Mr. Kallend your son definitely has my respect, as I've gathered from your previous posts in other threads that he is an 11C(correct me if I'm wrong). Well I started out as an 11C in Ranger Battalion and 3rd Infantry so there's always a special place in my heart for those goofy little gun bunny's. Gotta love 'em!!History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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Skyrad 0 #10 August 29, 2006 I missed my calling in the diplomatic corp, what can I sayWhen an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vortexring 0 #11 August 29, 2006 You can bloody well say 'here's your 2p' thank you very much! 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #12 August 30, 2006 Why is it that so many Americans feel the need to turn Soldiers into Team America Heros. The act of joining up is a decision made for many reasons.Quote regardless of the reasons for which a person joins the military that fact remains that they volunteer to make great sacrifices to protect others, including those that sit there and bad mouth them on a regular basis. Amercian soldiers fight to defend people taht hate them, people that could care less whether or not they ever make it home to their families, people that would rather spit on them than give them the time of day. Sounds like a pretty heroic thing to me.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,653 #13 August 30, 2006 QuoteWhy is it that so many Americans feel the need to turn Soldiers into Team America Heros. The act of joining up is a decision made for many reasons.Quote regardless of the reasons for which a person joins the military that fact remains that they volunteer to make great sacrifices to protect others, including those that sit there and bad mouth them on a regular basis. Amercian soldiers fight to defend people taht hate them, people that could care less whether or not they ever make it home to their families, people that would rather spit on them than give them the time of day. Sounds like a pretty heroic thing to me. Classic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. There's been almost no badmouthing of American or British soldiers except for those charged or found guilty of criminal offenses. The criticism has been uniformly leveled at the incompetent leaders who put the soldiers in there in the first place, in a situation which has deteriorated to the point that whatever we do, we look bad. We have the best military in the history of the world, led by a bunch of nincompoops.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #14 August 31, 2006 Classic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,653 #15 August 31, 2006 QuoteClassic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that? Easy. YOU and others on the right repeatedly try to portray criticism of the Iraq war as lack of support for the troops. YOU even claimed that many here are "badmouthing" the troops (your words). That is simply untrue. The troops are fine, it's their leaders who got them into this mess that are incompetent.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #16 August 31, 2006 Lets clarify a little, it is the "civlian" leadership who upon being voted into office by the people they are to represent who put the people and military into this mess.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,442 #17 August 31, 2006 >it is the "civlian" leadership who upon being voted into office by the >people they are to represent who put the people and military into this mess. Agreed, and that is an important distinction to make. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #18 August 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteClassic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that? Easy. YOU and others on the right repeatedly try to portray criticism of the Iraq war as lack of support for the troops. YOU even claimed that many here are "badmouthing" the troops (your words). That is simply untrue. The troops are fine, it's their leaders who got them into this mess that are incompetent. And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,442 #19 August 31, 2006 >And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. You've become a leftie? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #20 August 31, 2006 Quote>And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. You've become a leftie? No, but you just confirmed what I said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #21 August 31, 2006 Mr. Kallend, I usually try and steer away from arguments about the administration and leadership, in the past, yes I very well may have criticized a few people who took shots at the leadership, but not recently that I can recall. What I am asking you here though is when I said anyone in particular was bad mouthing the troops in my original post in this thread. I was talking about large groups of people in general but not making any accusations toward anyone in particular, especially anyone in this thread. So that's twice now in this particular thread that you have completely twisted the meaning of something I have said and I would greatly appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so. So once again I will restate what I have said, everyone who joins my military is volunteering to make substatial sacrifices to help others, anyone who does so may very well be consider a hero in some respect. That's it, that's all I have said here, I have not accused anyone of being unpatriotic nor am I using any "right wing" tactic to make people look that way.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,653 #22 August 31, 2006 QuoteMr. Kallend, I usually try and steer away from arguments about the administration and leadership, in the past, yes I very well may have criticized a few people who took shots at the leadership, but not recently that I can recall. What I am asking you here though is when I said anyone in particular was bad mouthing the troops in my original post in this thread. I was talking about large groups of people in general but not making any accusations toward anyone in particular, especially anyone in this thread. So that's twice now in this particular thread that you have completely twisted the meaning of something I have said and I would greatly appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so. So once again I will restate what I have said, everyone who joins my military is volunteering to make substatial sacrifices to help others, anyone who does so may very well be consider a hero in some respect. That's it, that's all I have said here, I have not accused anyone of being unpatriotic nor am I using any "right wing" tactic to make people look that way. So who are these people that, in your words, "sit there and bad mouth them on a regular basis". I have yet to meet one person who badmouths our troops, and I meet hundreds of people daily in the course of my work.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #23 September 1, 2006 There are plenty who bad mouth the troops and even troops who bad mouth the troops. I would disagree with Dan and say there have been some who bad mouth troops here, I had the displeasure of conversing with a couple. Consider your self lucky not to have to talk to them in any capacity. For political veiws aside, I am sure your like all Fathers of a member of the Military, willing to defend their moral and physical being as if it was the day they where born. I commend you and all Parents of members of the Military. Sorry to those who care about the side track of the thread.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #24 September 1, 2006 PM sent And I second what soon to be Mr. Cline said in commending the parents of service members, parents probably have it worse off at times than do their children when it comes to the emotional hardship of a deployment. And Mr. Kallend your son definitely has my respect, as I've gathered from your previous posts in other threads that he is an 11C(correct me if I'm wrong). Well I started out as an 11C in Ranger Battalion and 3rd Infantry so there's always a special place in my heart for those goofy little gun bunny's. Gotta love 'em!!History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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kallend 1,653 #13 August 30, 2006 QuoteWhy is it that so many Americans feel the need to turn Soldiers into Team America Heros. The act of joining up is a decision made for many reasons.Quote regardless of the reasons for which a person joins the military that fact remains that they volunteer to make great sacrifices to protect others, including those that sit there and bad mouth them on a regular basis. Amercian soldiers fight to defend people taht hate them, people that could care less whether or not they ever make it home to their families, people that would rather spit on them than give them the time of day. Sounds like a pretty heroic thing to me. Classic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. There's been almost no badmouthing of American or British soldiers except for those charged or found guilty of criminal offenses. The criticism has been uniformly leveled at the incompetent leaders who put the soldiers in there in the first place, in a situation which has deteriorated to the point that whatever we do, we look bad. We have the best military in the history of the world, led by a bunch of nincompoops.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #14 August 31, 2006 Classic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,653 #15 August 31, 2006 QuoteClassic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that? Easy. YOU and others on the right repeatedly try to portray criticism of the Iraq war as lack of support for the troops. YOU even claimed that many here are "badmouthing" the troops (your words). That is simply untrue. The troops are fine, it's their leaders who got them into this mess that are incompetent.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #16 August 31, 2006 Lets clarify a little, it is the "civlian" leadership who upon being voted into office by the people they are to represent who put the people and military into this mess.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,442 #17 August 31, 2006 >it is the "civlian" leadership who upon being voted into office by the >people they are to represent who put the people and military into this mess. Agreed, and that is an important distinction to make. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #18 August 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteClassic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that? Easy. YOU and others on the right repeatedly try to portray criticism of the Iraq war as lack of support for the troops. YOU even claimed that many here are "badmouthing" the troops (your words). That is simply untrue. The troops are fine, it's their leaders who got them into this mess that are incompetent. And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,442 #19 August 31, 2006 >And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. You've become a leftie? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #20 August 31, 2006 Quote>And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. You've become a leftie? No, but you just confirmed what I said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #21 August 31, 2006 Mr. Kallend, I usually try and steer away from arguments about the administration and leadership, in the past, yes I very well may have criticized a few people who took shots at the leadership, but not recently that I can recall. What I am asking you here though is when I said anyone in particular was bad mouthing the troops in my original post in this thread. I was talking about large groups of people in general but not making any accusations toward anyone in particular, especially anyone in this thread. So that's twice now in this particular thread that you have completely twisted the meaning of something I have said and I would greatly appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so. So once again I will restate what I have said, everyone who joins my military is volunteering to make substatial sacrifices to help others, anyone who does so may very well be consider a hero in some respect. That's it, that's all I have said here, I have not accused anyone of being unpatriotic nor am I using any "right wing" tactic to make people look that way.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,653 #22 August 31, 2006 QuoteMr. Kallend, I usually try and steer away from arguments about the administration and leadership, in the past, yes I very well may have criticized a few people who took shots at the leadership, but not recently that I can recall. What I am asking you here though is when I said anyone in particular was bad mouthing the troops in my original post in this thread. I was talking about large groups of people in general but not making any accusations toward anyone in particular, especially anyone in this thread. So that's twice now in this particular thread that you have completely twisted the meaning of something I have said and I would greatly appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so. So once again I will restate what I have said, everyone who joins my military is volunteering to make substatial sacrifices to help others, anyone who does so may very well be consider a hero in some respect. That's it, that's all I have said here, I have not accused anyone of being unpatriotic nor am I using any "right wing" tactic to make people look that way. So who are these people that, in your words, "sit there and bad mouth them on a regular basis". I have yet to meet one person who badmouths our troops, and I meet hundreds of people daily in the course of my work.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #23 September 1, 2006 There are plenty who bad mouth the troops and even troops who bad mouth the troops. I would disagree with Dan and say there have been some who bad mouth troops here, I had the displeasure of conversing with a couple. Consider your self lucky not to have to talk to them in any capacity. For political veiws aside, I am sure your like all Fathers of a member of the Military, willing to defend their moral and physical being as if it was the day they where born. I commend you and all Parents of members of the Military. Sorry to those who care about the side track of the thread.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #24 September 1, 2006 PM sent And I second what soon to be Mr. Cline said in commending the parents of service members, parents probably have it worse off at times than do their children when it comes to the emotional hardship of a deployment. And Mr. Kallend your son definitely has my respect, as I've gathered from your previous posts in other threads that he is an 11C(correct me if I'm wrong). Well I started out as an 11C in Ranger Battalion and 3rd Infantry so there's always a special place in my heart for those goofy little gun bunny's. Gotta love 'em!!History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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GQ_jumper 4 #14 August 31, 2006 Classic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,653 #15 August 31, 2006 QuoteClassic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that? Easy. YOU and others on the right repeatedly try to portray criticism of the Iraq war as lack of support for the troops. YOU even claimed that many here are "badmouthing" the troops (your words). That is simply untrue. The troops are fine, it's their leaders who got them into this mess that are incompetent.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #16 August 31, 2006 Lets clarify a little, it is the "civlian" leadership who upon being voted into office by the people they are to represent who put the people and military into this mess.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,442 #17 August 31, 2006 >it is the "civlian" leadership who upon being voted into office by the >people they are to represent who put the people and military into this mess. Agreed, and that is an important distinction to make. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #18 August 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteClassic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that? Easy. YOU and others on the right repeatedly try to portray criticism of the Iraq war as lack of support for the troops. YOU even claimed that many here are "badmouthing" the troops (your words). That is simply untrue. The troops are fine, it's their leaders who got them into this mess that are incompetent. And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,442 #19 August 31, 2006 >And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. You've become a leftie? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #20 August 31, 2006 Quote>And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. You've become a leftie? No, but you just confirmed what I said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #21 August 31, 2006 Mr. Kallend, I usually try and steer away from arguments about the administration and leadership, in the past, yes I very well may have criticized a few people who took shots at the leadership, but not recently that I can recall. What I am asking you here though is when I said anyone in particular was bad mouthing the troops in my original post in this thread. I was talking about large groups of people in general but not making any accusations toward anyone in particular, especially anyone in this thread. So that's twice now in this particular thread that you have completely twisted the meaning of something I have said and I would greatly appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so. So once again I will restate what I have said, everyone who joins my military is volunteering to make substatial sacrifices to help others, anyone who does so may very well be consider a hero in some respect. That's it, that's all I have said here, I have not accused anyone of being unpatriotic nor am I using any "right wing" tactic to make people look that way.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,653 #22 August 31, 2006 QuoteMr. Kallend, I usually try and steer away from arguments about the administration and leadership, in the past, yes I very well may have criticized a few people who took shots at the leadership, but not recently that I can recall. What I am asking you here though is when I said anyone in particular was bad mouthing the troops in my original post in this thread. I was talking about large groups of people in general but not making any accusations toward anyone in particular, especially anyone in this thread. So that's twice now in this particular thread that you have completely twisted the meaning of something I have said and I would greatly appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so. So once again I will restate what I have said, everyone who joins my military is volunteering to make substatial sacrifices to help others, anyone who does so may very well be consider a hero in some respect. That's it, that's all I have said here, I have not accused anyone of being unpatriotic nor am I using any "right wing" tactic to make people look that way. So who are these people that, in your words, "sit there and bad mouth them on a regular basis". I have yet to meet one person who badmouths our troops, and I meet hundreds of people daily in the course of my work.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #23 September 1, 2006 There are plenty who bad mouth the troops and even troops who bad mouth the troops. I would disagree with Dan and say there have been some who bad mouth troops here, I had the displeasure of conversing with a couple. Consider your self lucky not to have to talk to them in any capacity. For political veiws aside, I am sure your like all Fathers of a member of the Military, willing to defend their moral and physical being as if it was the day they where born. I commend you and all Parents of members of the Military. Sorry to those who care about the side track of the thread.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #24 September 1, 2006 PM sent And I second what soon to be Mr. Cline said in commending the parents of service members, parents probably have it worse off at times than do their children when it comes to the emotional hardship of a deployment. And Mr. Kallend your son definitely has my respect, as I've gathered from your previous posts in other threads that he is an 11C(correct me if I'm wrong). Well I started out as an 11C in Ranger Battalion and 3rd Infantry so there's always a special place in my heart for those goofy little gun bunny's. Gotta love 'em!!History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
kallend 1,653 #15 August 31, 2006 QuoteClassic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that? Easy. YOU and others on the right repeatedly try to portray criticism of the Iraq war as lack of support for the troops. YOU even claimed that many here are "badmouthing" the troops (your words). That is simply untrue. The troops are fine, it's their leaders who got them into this mess that are incompetent.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #16 August 31, 2006 Lets clarify a little, it is the "civlian" leadership who upon being voted into office by the people they are to represent who put the people and military into this mess.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,442 #17 August 31, 2006 >it is the "civlian" leadership who upon being voted into office by the >people they are to represent who put the people and military into this mess. Agreed, and that is an important distinction to make. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #18 August 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteClassic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that? Easy. YOU and others on the right repeatedly try to portray criticism of the Iraq war as lack of support for the troops. YOU even claimed that many here are "badmouthing" the troops (your words). That is simply untrue. The troops are fine, it's their leaders who got them into this mess that are incompetent. And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,442 #19 August 31, 2006 >And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. You've become a leftie? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #20 August 31, 2006 Quote>And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. You've become a leftie? No, but you just confirmed what I said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #21 August 31, 2006 Mr. Kallend, I usually try and steer away from arguments about the administration and leadership, in the past, yes I very well may have criticized a few people who took shots at the leadership, but not recently that I can recall. What I am asking you here though is when I said anyone in particular was bad mouthing the troops in my original post in this thread. I was talking about large groups of people in general but not making any accusations toward anyone in particular, especially anyone in this thread. So that's twice now in this particular thread that you have completely twisted the meaning of something I have said and I would greatly appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so. So once again I will restate what I have said, everyone who joins my military is volunteering to make substatial sacrifices to help others, anyone who does so may very well be consider a hero in some respect. That's it, that's all I have said here, I have not accused anyone of being unpatriotic nor am I using any "right wing" tactic to make people look that way.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,653 #22 August 31, 2006 QuoteMr. Kallend, I usually try and steer away from arguments about the administration and leadership, in the past, yes I very well may have criticized a few people who took shots at the leadership, but not recently that I can recall. What I am asking you here though is when I said anyone in particular was bad mouthing the troops in my original post in this thread. I was talking about large groups of people in general but not making any accusations toward anyone in particular, especially anyone in this thread. So that's twice now in this particular thread that you have completely twisted the meaning of something I have said and I would greatly appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so. So once again I will restate what I have said, everyone who joins my military is volunteering to make substatial sacrifices to help others, anyone who does so may very well be consider a hero in some respect. That's it, that's all I have said here, I have not accused anyone of being unpatriotic nor am I using any "right wing" tactic to make people look that way. So who are these people that, in your words, "sit there and bad mouth them on a regular basis". I have yet to meet one person who badmouths our troops, and I meet hundreds of people daily in the course of my work.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #23 September 1, 2006 There are plenty who bad mouth the troops and even troops who bad mouth the troops. I would disagree with Dan and say there have been some who bad mouth troops here, I had the displeasure of conversing with a couple. Consider your self lucky not to have to talk to them in any capacity. For political veiws aside, I am sure your like all Fathers of a member of the Military, willing to defend their moral and physical being as if it was the day they where born. I commend you and all Parents of members of the Military. Sorry to those who care about the side track of the thread.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #24 September 1, 2006 PM sent And I second what soon to be Mr. Cline said in commending the parents of service members, parents probably have it worse off at times than do their children when it comes to the emotional hardship of a deployment. And Mr. Kallend your son definitely has my respect, as I've gathered from your previous posts in other threads that he is an 11C(correct me if I'm wrong). Well I started out as an 11C in Ranger Battalion and 3rd Infantry so there's always a special place in my heart for those goofy little gun bunny's. Gotta love 'em!!History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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matthewcline 0 #16 August 31, 2006 Lets clarify a little, it is the "civlian" leadership who upon being voted into office by the people they are to represent who put the people and military into this mess.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,442 #17 August 31, 2006 >it is the "civlian" leadership who upon being voted into office by the >people they are to represent who put the people and military into this mess. Agreed, and that is an important distinction to make. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #18 August 31, 2006 QuoteQuoteClassic right wing tactic: deflect criticism of the leadership by making it out to be unpatriotic. Quote Where did I try and make someone out to be unpatriotic for criticizing leadership? I was merely sticking up for my brothers in arms(one of which is your own son if I am not mistaken). All I was saying was that the act of volunteering to make sacrifices for others regardless of your personal motive makes you in some respect a hero. How did you pull some right wing propaganda out of that? Easy. YOU and others on the right repeatedly try to portray criticism of the Iraq war as lack of support for the troops. YOU even claimed that many here are "badmouthing" the troops (your words). That is simply untrue. The troops are fine, it's their leaders who got them into this mess that are incompetent. And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,442 #19 August 31, 2006 >And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. You've become a leftie? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #20 August 31, 2006 Quote>And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. You've become a leftie? No, but you just confirmed what I said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #21 August 31, 2006 Mr. Kallend, I usually try and steer away from arguments about the administration and leadership, in the past, yes I very well may have criticized a few people who took shots at the leadership, but not recently that I can recall. What I am asking you here though is when I said anyone in particular was bad mouthing the troops in my original post in this thread. I was talking about large groups of people in general but not making any accusations toward anyone in particular, especially anyone in this thread. So that's twice now in this particular thread that you have completely twisted the meaning of something I have said and I would greatly appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so. So once again I will restate what I have said, everyone who joins my military is volunteering to make substatial sacrifices to help others, anyone who does so may very well be consider a hero in some respect. That's it, that's all I have said here, I have not accused anyone of being unpatriotic nor am I using any "right wing" tactic to make people look that way.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,653 #22 August 31, 2006 QuoteMr. Kallend, I usually try and steer away from arguments about the administration and leadership, in the past, yes I very well may have criticized a few people who took shots at the leadership, but not recently that I can recall. What I am asking you here though is when I said anyone in particular was bad mouthing the troops in my original post in this thread. I was talking about large groups of people in general but not making any accusations toward anyone in particular, especially anyone in this thread. So that's twice now in this particular thread that you have completely twisted the meaning of something I have said and I would greatly appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so. So once again I will restate what I have said, everyone who joins my military is volunteering to make substatial sacrifices to help others, anyone who does so may very well be consider a hero in some respect. That's it, that's all I have said here, I have not accused anyone of being unpatriotic nor am I using any "right wing" tactic to make people look that way. So who are these people that, in your words, "sit there and bad mouth them on a regular basis". I have yet to meet one person who badmouths our troops, and I meet hundreds of people daily in the course of my work.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #23 September 1, 2006 There are plenty who bad mouth the troops and even troops who bad mouth the troops. I would disagree with Dan and say there have been some who bad mouth troops here, I had the displeasure of conversing with a couple. Consider your self lucky not to have to talk to them in any capacity. For political veiws aside, I am sure your like all Fathers of a member of the Military, willing to defend their moral and physical being as if it was the day they where born. I commend you and all Parents of members of the Military. Sorry to those who care about the side track of the thread.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #24 September 1, 2006 PM sent And I second what soon to be Mr. Cline said in commending the parents of service members, parents probably have it worse off at times than do their children when it comes to the emotional hardship of a deployment. And Mr. Kallend your son definitely has my respect, as I've gathered from your previous posts in other threads that he is an 11C(correct me if I'm wrong). Well I started out as an 11C in Ranger Battalion and 3rd Infantry so there's always a special place in my heart for those goofy little gun bunny's. Gotta love 'em!!History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
billvon 2,442 #19 August 31, 2006 >And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. You've become a leftie? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #20 August 31, 2006 Quote>And the Left continuously confuses criticism with undermining. You've become a leftie? No, but you just confirmed what I said. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #21 August 31, 2006 Mr. Kallend, I usually try and steer away from arguments about the administration and leadership, in the past, yes I very well may have criticized a few people who took shots at the leadership, but not recently that I can recall. What I am asking you here though is when I said anyone in particular was bad mouthing the troops in my original post in this thread. I was talking about large groups of people in general but not making any accusations toward anyone in particular, especially anyone in this thread. So that's twice now in this particular thread that you have completely twisted the meaning of something I have said and I would greatly appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so. So once again I will restate what I have said, everyone who joins my military is volunteering to make substatial sacrifices to help others, anyone who does so may very well be consider a hero in some respect. That's it, that's all I have said here, I have not accused anyone of being unpatriotic nor am I using any "right wing" tactic to make people look that way.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,653 #22 August 31, 2006 QuoteMr. Kallend, I usually try and steer away from arguments about the administration and leadership, in the past, yes I very well may have criticized a few people who took shots at the leadership, but not recently that I can recall. What I am asking you here though is when I said anyone in particular was bad mouthing the troops in my original post in this thread. I was talking about large groups of people in general but not making any accusations toward anyone in particular, especially anyone in this thread. So that's twice now in this particular thread that you have completely twisted the meaning of something I have said and I would greatly appreciate it if you would refrain from doing so. So once again I will restate what I have said, everyone who joins my military is volunteering to make substatial sacrifices to help others, anyone who does so may very well be consider a hero in some respect. That's it, that's all I have said here, I have not accused anyone of being unpatriotic nor am I using any "right wing" tactic to make people look that way. So who are these people that, in your words, "sit there and bad mouth them on a regular basis". I have yet to meet one person who badmouths our troops, and I meet hundreds of people daily in the course of my work.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #23 September 1, 2006 There are plenty who bad mouth the troops and even troops who bad mouth the troops. I would disagree with Dan and say there have been some who bad mouth troops here, I had the displeasure of conversing with a couple. Consider your self lucky not to have to talk to them in any capacity. For political veiws aside, I am sure your like all Fathers of a member of the Military, willing to defend their moral and physical being as if it was the day they where born. I commend you and all Parents of members of the Military. Sorry to those who care about the side track of the thread.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #24 September 1, 2006 PM sent And I second what soon to be Mr. Cline said in commending the parents of service members, parents probably have it worse off at times than do their children when it comes to the emotional hardship of a deployment. And Mr. Kallend your son definitely has my respect, as I've gathered from your previous posts in other threads that he is an 11C(correct me if I'm wrong). Well I started out as an 11C in Ranger Battalion and 3rd Infantry so there's always a special place in my heart for those goofy little gun bunny's. Gotta love 'em!!History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
