Mockingbird 0 #176 May 25, 2006 QuoteMB, spend 5mins searching the web for the origins of the 4 gospels, you will quickly find that they were written in Greek, some 60 – 65 years after the alleged life of Jesus, by authors unknown… Yes, they were written in Greek, as was the rest of the New Testament. So what? Greek was the "international" language of the time. And yes, they were written in the first century, within a generation or two of Christ's death and resurrection. So? But "by authors unknown"??? Please. Where is your evidence that the gospels were not written by those same men to whom they have been attributed for centuries? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #177 May 25, 2006 Quoteespite the fact that it is common knowledge that there is no supporting physical evidence that can be linked to the story of Jesus, Common knowledge, huh? Then you should have NO problem pointing me to your sources of this so-called "common knowledge." "Common knowledge"--- that is too funny. Really, it is. I've never heard anyone make this claim... which is pretty funny considering that it's "common knowledge." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #178 May 25, 2006 QuoteAlso, where did you get your information about Aramaic? It was not the "popular language of Palestine in that age." Koine Greek was. Incorrect.... This site Claims that its Aramaic This site Claims that its Aramaic This site Claims that its Aramaic This site Claims that its Aramaic This site Claims that its Aramaic This site Claims that its Aramaic And one more from the Encyclopaedia Britannica… This site Claims that its Aramaic----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #179 May 25, 2006 Fix your links; none of them work. At least not for my browser. Check them, OK? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #180 May 25, 2006 QuoteCommon knowledge, huh? Then you should have NO problem pointing me to your sources of this so-called "common knowledge." "Common knowledge"--- that is too funny. Really, it is. I've never heard anyone make this claim... which is pretty funny considering that it' ermmm yeaaaah, ermmm actually I don’t know what to say!!!!!!!! Are you actually claiming to have physical evidence?????? Are you actually claiming that there is physical evidence that is known to everyone!!!!! Did someone dig up the Holy Grail whilst I was out to lunch?????? Please I beg of you, tell me where I can see this evidence, where is it…. Im very excited…----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #181 May 25, 2006 fixed,----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #182 May 25, 2006 Nice try, but the burden of proof is on you because you are the one making the rather unusual claim that what was accepted for centuries is now commonly understood to be incorrect. I will address your desire for "physical" evidence for the life of Christ only by saying that if you want relics or something like that, you're out of luck, at least as far as I know! If you want the word of eyewitnesses, even eyewitnesses who weren't favorably disposed to Him, look in the N.T.... also you might pick up a copy of a Bible Dictionary, such as one by Smith, or Unger or Halley, because not only will you find explanations and definitions (or identities) of people, places, and things referred to in the Bible, but also archaeological, geographical, and historical information, including secular references to the information contained in it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #183 May 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteAlso, where did you get your information about Aramaic? It was not the "popular language of Palestine in that age." Koine Greek was. Incorrect.... This site Claims that its Aramaic This site Claims that its Aramaic This site Claims that its Aramaic This site Claims that its Aramaic This site Claims that its Aramaic This site Claims that its Aramaic And one more from the Encyclopaedia Britannica… This site Claims that its Aramaic Palestine-- yes. Hebrew was the language of the Jews, and Aramaic was a cognate. Sorry, my brain skimmed right over that word, "Palestine." Let me amend my statement above by expressing it as I did originally, which is that Koine Greek was the "international" language of the day. It was understood virtually everywhere in the known world; it was the most commonly understood language. The N.T. authors wrote in a language that would've been understood by the most people-- the wanted the largest readership possible. Does that make sense? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #184 May 25, 2006 QuoteNice try, but the burden of proof is on you because you are the one making the rather unusual claim that what was accepted for centuries is now commonly understood to be incorrect. I will address your desire for "physical" evidence for the life of Christ only by saying that if you want relics or something like that, you're out of luck, at least as far as I know! If you want the word of eyewitnesses, even eyewitnesses who weren't favorably disposed to Him, look in the N.T.... also you might pick up a copy of a Bible Dictionary, such as one by Smith, or Unger or Halley, because not only will you find explanations and definitions (or identities) of people, places, and things referred to in the Bible, but also archaeological, geographical, and historical information, including secular references to the information contained in it. Sadly yet again you dance around the issue, the burden of proof most certainly is not on me, I am not the one making wild claims of a supernatural being who lived 2000 years ago, who was executed and rose from the dead to save us all… The burden of proof is on your shoulders. If I was to claim to that I have a friend who can levitate, it is not your responsibility to prove he cant, its mine to prove he can. You are the one making wild claims, and it is upto you to prove them, which you know as well as I do, that you can’t. So as we see time and time again you try to avoid the issue of proof, because you have none. Yet again you try to use hearsay and anecdotal evidence to back up you claims, yet again you dismiss that fact that there is no physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artefacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. You tell me that all I need do is read the NT, but you still don’t seem to understand that the 4 gospels that tell the story of Jesus, where written 60 – 65 years after the alleged story, and by authors unknown, and in a different language. How does anyone possible begin to try and prove any authenticity to the stories????? You simply can’t, and you know this as well as I do.. MB stop making excuses, and consider for one moment that you might actual be wrong…..----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #185 May 25, 2006 QuoteBut "by authors unknown"??? Please. Where is your evidence that the gospels were not written by those same men to whom they have been attributed for centuries? And who do you think have they been attributed to for centuries??----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #186 May 25, 2006 QuoteThe problem I have with this, is that we know Adam and Eve never existed, and I’m sure that you agree, so therefore the “original sin” never happened, and therefore Jesus came to earth, was tortured and died for, well nothing. to any sane person this is absurd??? You would have to be omniscient yourself to make such a definitive statement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #187 May 25, 2006 your mythical "saviour" said judge not lest you be judged yourself. telling me I,m headed for hell is judging me. so guess were you are going also. the fact of the matter, THE "BIBLE" IS NOT TRUE. sitting on your ass believing a myth as literal truth is why the world is in such a mess today. here is an article for you, since you "believe" without proof. as an ex-preacher, this is my interpretation on the "mark of the beast", based on my research while brainwashing people into slaves for the SUN(lord jesus). believers and non believers should take considerable HEED of this, due to the ramifications of life and LIBERTY(FREEDOM FROM EXTRANOUS CONTROL,black's fourth edition). Why wont you read 'who is this-a critical study of the chrostos-messiah tradition. are you that afraid of the truth?[url]we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,262 #188 May 25, 2006 QuoteYou would have to be omniscient yourself to make such a definitive statement. Ok, how about every single thing we know about how the earth was formed and how life, plants, animals and humans came to be refutes the story of Adam and Eve. Good enough?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #189 May 25, 2006 QuoteMB stop making excuses, and consider for one moment that you might actual be wrong….. Been there, done that. I've tested my beliefs--- I'm 51 years old and have had over 30 years to do so. And what about you, dear Broken? You have unrealistic expectations--- you want a holy grail, a letter from Jesus, etc., etc., etc. You want me to prove Jesus to you, I can't. I can give you evidence-- the New Testament, and a few references from secular histories of the time-- but no "physical" proof. I can't provide "physical" proof for the existence of anyone I haven't known personally. I pointed you to the book of "Acts" for historical events and people that are mentioned in places other than the bible; I also pointed you to the book of "Acts" as an example of a historical narrative which in no way resembles myth. Jesus once told a parable about a rich man who died and who wanted Abraham to send another dead man named Lazarus (a beggar) to his house where he could warn his brothers. Abraham told him, No, your brothers have been warned by Moses and the prophets; they can read the O.T. anytime they want. The dead rich man said, No, Father Abraham! If someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will turn from their sins! But Abraham answered, If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead. Like the rich mans 5 brothers, you have plenty of evidence, written by 40 different writers and compiled in one volume, with no reason to disbelieve their testimony. Christ spoke to people who saw him face to face, saw him work miracles which validated his claims, and so on; many responded in repentance and devotion. Others turned and walked away. They didn't want to follow Him. It wasn't that they were unconvinced; they just didn't want to follow Him. As I've said in the past, the act of believing/accepting involves the intellect AND the volition. If you're missing one , you won't come to Christ no matter what evidence you are given. Christ himself said "you will not come to me that you may have life" (He came in order to restore spiritual life to man and to reconcile man to God) Your heart and mind are closed to the possibility that you need Christ, as well as the demands He may put on you. Many people have been where you are now-- looking for reasons NOT to believe, looking for ammo to blow away the claims of Christ and the testimony of Christians-- and have stopped dead in their tracks to look honestly at why they had such animosity, and have sought out the evidence they thought didn't exist, and when confronted with it, were led to repentance and became followers of Christ. I've read two books by two different authors who set out to disprove the claims of Christ only to eventually embrace Him. I hope that your story ends as well. But as long as you are filled with such animosity, many of your questions seem quite insincere, except for the ones that will help you prove your case against my Savior. And now.... I'm going to zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....... [wrote this at 3:59 am and forgot to post it... sorry] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #190 May 25, 2006 Quoteyour mythical "saviour" said judge not lest you be judged yourself. telling me I,m headed for hell is judging me. "A little learning is a dangerous thing; Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring." Alexander Pope Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #191 May 25, 2006 Quoteyou "believe" without proof Everytime you jump from a plane, you believe without proof... so what's the point? When are you going to get your definitions right? What IS faith? What IS proof? What IS evidence? What is knowledge? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #192 May 25, 2006 Quoteyour mythical "saviour" said judge not lest you be judged yourself. telling me I,m headed for hell is judging me. Hypocritical judgment is wrong. Judgment according to God’s word is commanded. That’s not to say that I am personally judging you. The law convicts and God judges you. I don’t make up or enforce the law. I’m just warning you of what it says. Your complaint above would be akin to saying that I’m judging you by telling you the bridge is out up ahead on the road you’re driving on. Quoteso guess were you are going also. I would be and justifiably so. However, I won’t be going with you. I’m under the weight of the law just like you are. I’m also guilty of breaking the law just like you are. I, however, have repented and trusted my life to the Savior. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #193 May 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteyou "believe" without proof Everytime you jump from a plane, you believe without proof... so what's the point? When are you going to get your definitions right? What IS faith? What IS proof? What IS evidence? What is knowledge? thre 'bible' is a proven myth, jesus is as much a myth as al the other virgin born crucified 'saviours'. god is merely the SUN in the sky. for 'god' to be omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, said 'god' is irrefuteably the 'devil' also. if the 'bible' is the divinely-inpired word of baal, molech, adonay, yahweh, jehovah(all names for the same mythical SUN god), it logically follows that the bible applies to any and all intelligent life in this infite universe. every response you make is irrefutable proof of this statement, RELIGION IS JUST ANOTHER FORM OF MIND-CONTROL. hell is only in your mind, i will not be going somewhere that does NOT exist. once again, send me your e-mail and i'll send who is this- a critical study of the christos-messiah tradition. failure to examine ALL evidence pro and con proves that religion is mind controlwe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #194 May 26, 2006 What a garbled mess of confusion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #195 May 26, 2006 yes, that is exactly what the bible is. you prove my point, PERFECTLY. GO GET 'the christ conspiracy-the greatest story ever sold'. when you have read it you might know something about the pile of bullshit you so foolishly take literally. Pope Leo X 'what profit hath that FABLE of christ brought us '. St Anasthius, 'should we understand the 'sacred writ' to the letter, we would be committing the most enormous of blasphemies'.we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mockingbird 0 #196 May 26, 2006 Quotethre 'bible' is a proven myth, jesus is as much a myth as al the other virgin born crucified 'saviours'. How was this proven by your source of information? And what IS your source; you never told me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #197 May 26, 2006 QuoteQuotethre 'bible' is a proven myth, jesus is as much a myth as al the other virgin born crucified 'saviours'. How was this proven by your source of information? And what IS your source; you never told me. Don't you know... If you'd just read "a critical study of the christos-messiah tradition", you'd be enlightened. Get with it. Failure to do so will PROVE to the world that you're scared and weak in your belief. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #198 May 27, 2006 Quote Everytime you jump from a plane, you believe without proof... so what's the point? When are you going to get your definitions right? What IS faith? What IS proof? What IS evidence? What is knowledge? MB Im not sure what you mean with your first comment, can you please explain? What is faith ? – Faith is Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence What is Proof ? – Proof is The result or effect of evidence; the establishment or denial of a fact by evidence. What is Evidence ? – Evidence is A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment What is Knowledge ? – Knowledge is The state or fact of knowing Right now, what’s your point?????----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #199 May 27, 2006 QuoteBeen there, done that. I've tested my beliefs--- I'm 51 years old and have had over 30 years to do so. And what about you, dear Broken? You have unrealistic expectations--- you want a holy grail, a letter from Jesus, etc., etc., etc. You want me to prove Jesus to you, I can't. I can give you evidence-- the New Testament, and a few references from secular histories of the time-- but no "physical" proof. I can't provide "physical" proof for the existence of anyone I haven't known personally. I pointed you to the book of "Acts" for historical events and people that are mentioned in places other than the bible; I also pointed you to the book of "Acts" as an example of a historical narrative which in no way resembles myth. Let me ask you this, why has no one found any physical evidence? Is it because it doesn’t exist? Is God hiding it??? And if so why?? You continually rant about the bible as a smoking gun for your beliefs, but why haven’t you bothered to actually try and investigate the authenticity of it.. Consider that not a single historian, philosopher, scribe or follower who lived before or during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him! This alone should be ringing alarm bells!!!!! Again the fact that not only do we not know who wrote them, consider that none of the Gospels got written during the alleged life of Jesus, nor do the unknown authors make the claim to have met an earthly Jesus. Add to this that none of the original gospel manuscripts exist; we only have copies of copies… again in any rational persons mind alarm bells would be ringing!!!!! Any way As an experiment, imagine the Gospels without their titles. See if you can find out from the texts who wrote them; try to find their names. Again alarm bells ringing… Your heart and mind are closed to the possibility that you need Christ, as well as the demands He may put on you. Many people have been where you are now-- looking for reasons NOT to believe, looking for ammo to blow away the claims of Christ and the testimony of Christians-- and have stopped dead in their tracks to look honestly at why they had such animosity, and have sought out the evidence they thought didn't exist, and when confronted with it, were led to repentance and became followers of Christ. I've read two books by two different authors who set out to disprove the claims of Christ only to eventually embrace Him. I hope that your story ends as well. But as long as you are filled with such animosity, many of your questions seem quite insincere, except for the ones that will help you prove your case against my Savior. You know MB, I actually think I feel genuinely sorry for you; you seem incapable of viewing the world without your “God Glasses” on. My heart and mind are perfectly normal, and your right I don’t need god or Christ, Allah, Buddha, Zeus, Aphrodite or any other, and do you know what, neither do you. Again you are mistaken when you say that I look for reasons NOT to believe, far from it, I looked for reasons to believe and to date have found none, and that’s because there is NONE. You bewilderingly say “just read the OT or the NT” and expect that to be good enough!!! Imagine in 1000 years from now, a young child is reading some of JK Rowling’s books, why should they not believe that there used be a young wizard call Harry, who few around on a broomstick, because they have no way of disproving the story?? Why when difficult questions are asked do you simply avoid them?????? Why, 1. Is no physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. 2. Is no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus? 3. Is not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus 4. Do Comparative Religion shows that the story of Jesus already existed in numerous religions prior to the alleged time of Jesus. Chrishna, Horus, Orpheus, Bacchus, Osiris, Dionysus, Buddha, Apollo, Hercules, Adonis, Ormuzd, Mithras, Indra, Œdipus, Quetzalcoatle, etc. The motif of a Crucified Savior was already extant prior to the alleged time of Jesus. Why are you unable to answer these questions????? You claimed 30 years of testing your faith, so in that time I can only assume you would have found these answers???? So where are they?????----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #200 May 27, 2006 QuoteDon't you know... If you'd just read "a critical study of the christos-messiah tradition", you'd be enlightened. Get with it. Failure to do so will PROVE to the world that you're scared and weak in your belief. Don't you know... If you'd just read "The Bible", you'd be enlightened. Get with it. Failure to do so will PROVE to the world that you're scared and weak in your belief.----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
