I am an agnostic....and proud of it.

[RhondaLea 3]

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Depends, what's it pay. I hear Hell ain't cheap

Being the Bride of Satan, I can make it well worth your while.

Besides, you really have no choice.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[billvon 2,471]

>I hear Hell ain't cheap . ..

It's getting so bad even the demons can't afford to live there. I hear they are outsourcing some torment to Heck, where it's still pretty cheap. Lower standard of damnation though, and no wireless Internet access.

On the plus side, the world is going to end pretty soon per Bill Cole, so the massive influx will come to an end.

[NelKel 0]

I really not trying to flame anyone. Self serving?

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[GTAVercetti 0]

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I really not trying to flame anyone. Self serving?

1) its a play on another thread

2) agnostics QUESTION the exisitence of God. They are not simply unbelievers.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[NelKel 0]

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/agnostic

>>one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god.<<

Pretty close to what I said ah?

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[GTAVercetti 0]

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http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/agnostic

>>one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god.<<

Pretty close to what I said ah?

Not really. You said agnostics don't believe. Not believing is different than being noncommittal. One has already drawn a conclusion while the other has not.

An agnostic: I am not sure if there is a God or not

An aethiest: There is no God.

So agnostics don't just " not believe." They are uncommitted in either direction.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[likearock 1]

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>YOu'd have to say pretty much anybody is as good as any other, then.

"Oh Grover Cleveland!" just doesn't have the same ring to it, though.

Maybe not for the president. But the pitcher was certainly worth an orgasmic salute.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Everything in the bible is hearsay. The books were written many years after the "facts". Stories passed down and embellished as they went. Interpeted and reinterpeted time and time again untill they are nothing but stories that hold no truth whatsoever.

Why such animosity between us at times, when we feel EXACTLY the same way about the bible?

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Not really. You said agnostics don't believe. Not believing is different than being noncommittal. One has already drawn a conclusion while the other has not.

An agnostic: I am not sure if there is a God or not

An aethiest: There is no God.

So agnostics don't just " not believe." They are uncommitted in either direction.

I thought agnostics doubt there is a god, but admit that they don't have an anwer for how creation came to be.

I really disbelieve in a god. I'm comittal in that regard, but I DON'T claim to KNOW there is not a god.

Anyone who claims he has the ability to know that there IS or IS NOT a god is a fuckin' liar.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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What God? Where? Prove it

You have to have FAITH -- proof is not supposed to be necessary to the whole fraud er... construct.

For some reason, you're supposed to just BELIEVE there is a god -- an invisible guy with OMNIPOTENT powers, who sees all, knows all, does all -- with no proof OR REASON for believing it. You have NEVER heard GOD telling people he's there -- you've only heard PEOPLE telling people he's there. Strange. I wonder why that is...

But you're not supposed to be naive and foolish enough to believe ME, if I say you should loan me $1,000,000 on the promise (with no proof, evidence, or cause to believe it) that I will pay you back ten times that amount a week from today.

Is it easier or harder to believe that an unexplained force could, with a thought, create the universe, than it is to believe I might somehow scam up $10,000,000? And why?

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[freethefly 6]

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Quote

Everything in the bible is hearsay. The books were written many years after the "facts". Stories passed down and embellished as they went. Interpeted and reinterpeted time and time again untill they are nothing but stories that hold no truth whatsoever.

Why such animosity between us at times, when we feel EXACTLY the same way about the bible?

-

I am neither aware or unaware of any animosity. I am agnositic in this regard
Sorry, I just couldn't help it. It was all to easy

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Jeff.Donohue 0]

Some people use the distinction that you're talking about (basically, "agnostics say they aren't sure, atheists say they are sure").

But I think the terms are somewhat confused. If you're an theist, you believe in God or Gods. If you're an atheist, you believe that there are no such thing as God or Gods. Note the common thing between them (belief)?

An "agnostic" would say "there is simply no way to definitely know one way or the other." Note that I don't use the word "believe" in the definition of agnosticism -- it has nothing to do with it.

The source of the word helps make it clear. "Agnostic" comes from Greek "a" - meaning no, or not, and "gnosis" - meaning knowledge. Compare that with "atheism", which comes from "a" - no or not, and "theos" -- God.

I can't speak for all agnostics, but I would say that my personal belief is that there is no evidence of a transcendent (which is a shorthand way of encompassing God/the divine/life after death/karma, insivible tree fairies, etc.). On that point, I'm a skepdic. To understand the way a skepdic thinks about the issue, there's a great story written by the late Carl Sagan at http://spl.haxial.net/religion/misc/carl-sagan.html

But here's the tricky part. If we were only limited our discussion about "God, the divine, etc." (you see why I shorthand it with "the transcendent") to that which was physically proven, we wouldn't be talking much about it. The skepdics would be waiting around for the evidence. However, folks who say that there is a transcendent counter with the argument that, for example, "God exists beyond all physical laws," "God acts in the material world but is not part of it, and therefore you can't detect Him using scientific measurements...", or the even less provable "God is love."

To that, I guess I am at a loss. If you have a thing which can't be detected (like a bowling ball) or inferred (like a subatomic particle), and which exists beyond the physical and all means of detection, then by definition there is no way to know whether it exists. You can believe if you want, or you can disbelieve if you want. But you can't know.

Now, some have commented that all agnostics and atheists do is try to knock down other peoples faiths. That's an unfair generalization: it's the equivalent of "all Christians try to convert your or force their views on you." It's not true. As I've said before, I don't care what you believe, with the possible exception of if you are making social policy decisions that are based on bad science in the name of divine inspiration.

As an aside, Kierkegaard -- a devout Christian -- went so far as to argue that if you could prove the existence of God, you wouldn't want to, because proof denies faith; you don't have "faith" in something like gravity, even though you might rely on it.

Now, back to the question why I bothered to post it in the first place. I guess I have a couple of answers. Obviously, it is in response to (not a criticism of) the original post by Windcatcher. She announced that she had faith and was proud of her faith. I say, "good for her."

First of all, I was wondering what the dropzone community would say to a somewhat less "common" religious perspective.

Second, my point about being proud is precisely that: if Windcatcher can be proud of her conclusions, I can be proud of mine, can't I? If I missed something somewhere, somebody please let me know...

Third, you folks are my community. I haven't posted much on SC or in the Soapbox because I spent a lot of time in Skydiving Questions and Training. I thought it was a better use of my time. However, I generally like other skydivers, and figure I might as well make a comment like Windcatcher did to say what I'm about. Maybe it would stir up discussion.

[RhondaLea 3]

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...and figure I might as well make a comment like Windcatcher did to say what I'm about. Maybe it would stir up discussion.

Because you don't post here regularly, you're not aware that there have been about 20 knock-offs of the "I am a Christian....and proud of it!!!!" thread.

We've had proud emergency worker fans, boobie posters, agnostics, atheists, heroin addicts...I didn't have time to look through 41 search pages for all the proud people here, but everyone has taken their shot.

Fortunately for this thread, we haven't had one in a (relative) while, and every now and again the "Christian" thread needs a break.

But not too much of one. I'm starting to believe that when the thread does end, so does the world.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Jeff.Donohue 0]

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I'm starting to believe that when the thread does end, so does the world.

Nah... Bill Cole has the timing of that all worked out in another thread.

But, in all seriousness, in doing a search, I see you're right. I guess a thread whose topics are supposed to be limited to conversial topics is likely to run over the same old ground again and again. Maybe I should have posted about cloning or stem cell research or something.

I guess I'll stick to S&T.

[RhondaLea 3]

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I guess I'll stick to S&T.

No, no, no. Don't take it like that. Recycling is good.

And this has been a perfectly fine thread. I'd like to start a "proud" thread of my own, but I'm afraid my topic wouldn't be appropriate for a family message board like dropzone.com. I am therefore reduced to taking vicarious pleasure in those begun by others, and sometimes I get a little pissy.

Sometimes.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[rasmack 0]

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... I'd like to start a "proud" thread of my own, but I'm afraid my topic wouldn't be appropriate for a family message board like dropzone.com.

Why don't you present your subject here? We can then help you decide if you should make a thread ).

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[pirana 0]

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The test wasn't even given to me. Instead, it was given to two people who had it all and weren't satisfied. Gullible, living a life of luxury, of opulance, free of pain and displeasure.

And they just had to listen to that fuckn' snake eh? Doesn't it give ya an urge to want to slap Adam and Eve around a bit? All the suffering in the world - and there is a lot of it - just because they wanted what was forbidden for 'em - a temptation put there as much by God as by his fallen angel.

Reading your post (a good one) reminds me of how I feel when I read passages from the Bible. I am at once very appreciative of the quality of the stories as a means for conveying the lessons it does for living an effective life; and at the same time disgusted that such a large portion of our population can even entertain those stories as some sort of factual account of history.

I wonder what portion of people with an IQ over 80 really believe that 2 people named Adam & Eve spawned the entire human population?

It's a story folks, learn from it, but don't be duped into thinking it is documentation of history.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[GTAVercetti 0]

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I guess I'll stick to S&T.

No, no, no. Don't take it like that. Recycling is good.

And this has been a perfectly fine thread. I'd like to start a "proud" thread of my own, but I'm afraid my topic wouldn't be appropriate for a family message board like dropzone.com. I am therefore reduced to taking vicarious pleasure in those begun by others, and sometimes I get a little pissy.

Sometimes.

rl

hmmmm.....now I really want to know what this topic is.

and did you just called dz.com a family board?

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.