Who doesn't support GWB now, but voted for him?

[Newbie 0]

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Sorry to butt in on the standard conservative v. liberal debate, but I'm going to actually answer the question.

My grandfather, who was raised republican, served in three wars and rose to the rank of colonel in the USAF, and had NEVER voted democrat, told the family before he died two weeks ago that he regretted voting for W. The only person I ever heard him speak ill of was Clinton, until now. He gave as reasons 1. the economy, specifically wasteful spending, 2. the war, and the lack of leadership and foresight demonstrated, and 3. evidence of bald-faced lying, one of the same things he hated clinton for.

I just wish I could have talked to him about it before he died, as we never exactly saw eye-to-eye politically. The fact he withdrew his support is very telling, at least to me.

Thanks for answering the question, and thats really interesting about your grandfather (the last people i would expect to change their political ways are the older generations).

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[storm1977 0]

I have to disagree with at least one thing here...

The Air traffic controllers union NEEDED to be broken up.
You know what... It needs to again. NATCA, the new current ATC union is as corrupt as the old one was and soon that will change. If I were in charge, NATCA would be disbanded too.

Here is a quick little bit of info:

Executive Summary
On March 2, 2005, the Federal Aviation Administration convened a team of safety experts,
investigators, current and former air traffic controllers, and human resource and finance
professionals to begin a 60-day on-site operational assessment of its New York Terminal Radar
Approach Control (the New York TRACON) facility. The following is a summary of their
findings and recommendations.
I. BACKGROUND
In the early 1990s, management at the New York TRACON entered into a series of agreements
with local representatives from the National Air Traffic Controller’s Association (NATCA), the
union that represents the FAA’s air traffic control workforce. By any standards these
“partnership” agreements severely compromised management’s authority to set work schedules,
determine staffing, and allocate overtime. As a result, at this facility, the union has enjoyed the
ability to set the schedules for controller shift rotations and days off, resulting in an inefficient
system that necessitates the use of a large amount of overtime.
The New York TRACON incurs by far the highest overtime costs of any large comparable
facility, even though the facility has more controllers onboard and handles fewer operations per
controller than most other large TRACONs. In 2004, New York spent $4.12 million on overtime
pay – more than double any other large TRACON. In comparison, Southern California
TRACON handled almost 60,000 more operations yet spent $1,628,122 in overtime. During the
same time period, overtime costs per operation at Dallas, Atlanta, Southern California, and
Chicago TRACONs ranged from 2 cents per operation to 76 cents. At New York, the overtime
cost per operation was $1.99.
As a result of scheduling practices, 21 controllers at the New York TRACON earned over
$200,000 last year not including benefits. For 2005, approximately one out of every four
controllers will earn over $200,0002. Average earnings for a controller at the New York
TRACON last year were $160,536, while controllers there guided aircraft for only an
average of just three hours and 39 minutes per eight-hour shift, less than any other large
TRACON. (By comparison, the average pay was $155,068 at Southern California
TRACON, where controllers worked an average of 5 hours and 6 minutes controlling
aircraft.)

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[kallend 1,679]

On the whole, I think air traffic controllers are far more deserving of big bucks incomes than attorneys.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[storm1977 0]

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On the whole, I think air traffic controllers are far more deserving of big bucks incomes than attorneys.

Of course you do....

Because ATC do 3.5 hours work in an 8hr day.
Most Lawyers do more than 8.

ATC'ers only need a high school diploma or at most a 6 month course at the Minniapolis ARTCC.

Lawyers need on an average need 8yrs of schooling beyond HS.

Of course you think it is OK that ATCs base salary in NY is 165K + Differencial and OT = on average 220K. While their bosses in management can only make 175K maximum.

Your views are very typical of those on the outside of the industry. Fact is, we don't even need ATCs. The Union is fighting all new technology to advance safety in controlling traffic... Why?
Because they realize that the technology can do their job better than them fo whole hell of a lot less.

You ever worked in a Center or a TRACON?
Have you ever seen what kind of joke it is?

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[storm1977 0]

Speaking of ATC... Here we go:

WASHINGTON -- The Federal Aviation Administration and the union representing air traffic controllers traded barbs ahead of what's expected to be contentious contract negotiations beginning next week.

FAA chief Marion Blakey and National Air Traffic Controllers Association President John Carr both said they hoped and expected that talks would go well, but there was no mistaking the animosity between the two sides during back-to-back news conferences Wednesday.


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Blakey said controllers make far more money than other public servants, control scheduling and hold back modernization projects.

Carr retorted that the FAA is hostile to controllers, who are concerned about the system's safety and efficiency because of the agency's reluctance to deal with modernization problems.

The talks, which begin Monday, come at the end of a five-year contract that expired Sept. 30, 2003, but was extended for two years with minor changes.

A disagreement over a proposal to increase the number of privately run air traffic control towers in 2003 threatened to stall an aviation spending bill in Congress until a compromise was reached that shielded air traffic control jobs from privatization for a year.

Controllers also have said they are overworked because the FAA froze hiring while scores of controllers left. Most retired, a harbinger of the expected wave of retirements by the replacements for the 12,000 striking controllers President Reagan fired in 1981. The FAA has since announced a plan to replenish the ranks of controllers.

Blakey, at a news conference, said the FAA is hampered by costly work rules and side agreements.

"We can't afford an agreement like 1998 that saddled the FAA with excessive costs, archaic work rules and restrictions on our ability to modernize the system," Blakey said. She said controllers, who earn an average annual salary of $165,400, shouldn't be paid significantly more than commercial pilots, police officers or firefighters.

"I'm surprised she stooped so low so soon," Carr shot back on a conference call shortly afterward.

Carr said Blakey abandoned efforts to work with the union on productivity -- efforts that offset half the cost of the contract from 1999-2001.

Carr acknowledged that the controllers' union has armed itself for the upcoming talks with several public relations firms.

"We will spend whatever it takes," he said.

For its part, the FAA recently hired Joseph Miniace, deputy assistant administrator for labor relations. He formerly headed the Pacific Maritime Association, which locked out West Coast dockworkers in 2002. When two armed guards protected Miniace during mediation session, union workers accused him of sabotaging the session with "gun-toting security guards."

Though the specter of the 1981 controllers' strike looms over the upcoming negotiations, both Carr and Blakey said they couldn't imagine a strike.

Still, Blakey said, "No one has said that labor negotiations are going to be easy."

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[kallend 1,679]

Quote

Quote

On the whole, I think air traffic controllers are far more deserving of big bucks incomes than attorneys.

Of course you do....

Because ATC do 3.5 hours work in an 8hr day.
Most Lawyers do more than 8.

ATC'ers only need a high school diploma or at most a 6 month course at the Minniapolis ARTCC.

Lawyers need on an average need 8yrs of schooling beyond HS.

Of course you think it is OK that ATCs base salary in NY is 165K + Differencial and OT = on average 220K. While their bosses in management can only make 175K maximum.

Your views are very typical of those on the outside of the industry. Fact is, we don't even need ATCs. The Union is fighting all new technology to advance safety in controlling traffic... Why?
Because they realize that the technology can do their job better than them fo whole hell of a lot less.

You ever worked in a Center or a TRACON?
Have you ever seen what kind of joke it is?

I am a pilot, and whenever possible I avoid talking to ATC - I have flown coast-to-coast without talking to a single controller. I have not been to a Center but I did visit O'Hare tower.

And I still think ATCs deserve more pay than lawyers.

You have not changed my mind.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[storm1977 0]

Well, one thing I would say is that Tower people probably deserve the most of the 3 groups, (Center, Tracon, Tower) even though they are actually paid the least.
Go figure.

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[kallend 1,679]

Quote

Well, one thing I would say is that Tower people probably deserve the most of the 3 groups, (Center, Tracon, Tower) even though they are actually paid the least.
Go figure.

It's the government, it doesn't have to make sense!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.