Darius11 12 #51 July 27, 2004 indiginous people of Palestine - where is Palestine? What are its borders? Who was its first leader? What is its primary import/export? What are some high points in its history? Low points perhaps? Bah! THERE IS NO PALESTINE!Quote Here is a link to a few Maps. http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/0_pal_facts_MAPS.htm indiscriminate killing - the trademark of homicide bombers. Israel does incur some collateral damage with air-strikes and such, but during the course of targeting terroristsQuote Are we better then the terrorist if we do the same thing? Or our we a terrorist our self just on the other side. If you kill innocent people with a missile or a suicide bomb is there a difference? Death is death bulldozing houes/excessive use of force Yep! Homicide bombers attack and should be aware that one of the the results is bringing harm to those they loved and held dear. If they truly wanted peace, they would end the violence, shut down Al Manar and stop teaching their children that Jews are pigs and thieves.Quote So assuming you have a teenager and he/she rapes, or kills someone your saying you as his father are liable? This article sought to show the reader how homicide bombers are made. Pathetic attempt at doing so. Homicide bombers are made by inculcating children and young people at an early age that killing Jews is good, they have been robbed of their land by Jews, that the reason their lives are in the depths of despair is because the Jews keep them there, there can be no peace with Jews, and that if they would just go and kill Jews they will get a just reward in heaven. Homicide bombers are made with lies. So even the first Suicide bombers were thought in school? They have no real reason to be pissed they have been treated with respect there just brain washed that’s what your saying?I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #52 July 27, 2004 Like I said. There is no Palestine. What a disgusting website - then again look at its aim. The maps you show don't show a Palestine until a British mandate. It shows an Arab/Jew breakdown - if they weren't prejudiced they wouldn't care about such things - in an overlay of the current state of Israel to start off with, then proceeds from there. In the website's historical section it doesn't go into a history of Palestine - it goes over a bit of Ottoman history though. Like I said - there IS NO PALESTINE. Death is death. Yep! And collateral deaths resulting from killing a terrorist piece of shit are really sad. Such deaths have a Machiavellian justification. What's sadder is totally innocent women and children being blown to bits by a homicide bombing terrorist piece of shit. The only one who deserved death was him/herself its instrument. This is really inane so I'll quote it: QuoteSo assuming you have a teenager and he/she rapes, or kills someone your saying you as his father are liable? Nope! The enemy Israel faces has shown no compunction about giving up his/her life for a cause they care about. The only deterrent available to the Israelis is to ensure any potential homicide bomber knows that harm will come to those he loves as a result of his/her homicide bombing. The Japanese were doing a similar thing with the families of folks seeking death-by-bullet train - going after the families financially. The Israeli deterrent has been significantly negated by foreign govt's - Saddam Hussein and the Saudis - sending $$ to families of homicide bombers. One more reason to be pissed off at them. Homicide bombers brainwashed? Absolutely. The first ones were more than likely religious fanatics brainwashed by some cleric or imam. Now Al Manar and Palestinian Authority radio and schools teach the hatred early, so the brainwashing is easier. If the so-called Palestinians wanted peace, they'd stop preaching that hatred and stop the violence. Fat chance of that, eh?Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #53 July 27, 2004 showing what suits your goals, are we? take a look at "Population Movements, 1948-51" the jews came from places like europe, asia and africa, right? well yeah, but a LOT came from iran, iraq, yemmen, moroco, tunis, etc because they were forced to leave. not to mention that they had to go empty handed. how about my family who lived in Hebron for centuries and was driven out in 1939 by riots? should i sue and get my family house back? the simple fact (like it or not) that there was no palestine. and there is no palestine. there will bea palestinian state because its the only feasible solution. but it wont be on all of this land, unless they accept it, more blood will flow. why look at the last 150 years? want to check how many palestinians there were here 2000 years ago ? oh, wait, there were none... i especially liked the definition "zionist colonies"... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #54 July 27, 2004 you know, Darius, editing the article and removing the great comparisons to nazism and concentration camps won't make in more reliable. i know you meant well but the severity of the terms used by the author are important to see how absurd her claims are. again, i know you meant well and wanted to show respect to the forum, but you didn't write this article, and the author meant for these analogies to be read. just a thought O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #55 July 27, 2004 Quoteshowing what suits your goals, are we?Quote Unlike most on here that are so sure that they are 100 % right, and seem to follow an agenda I don’t follow one or have any specific goals. I don’t own Land in Palestine or Israel. I put in Palestinian map on google and that’s the link that came up you can try it if you like. I am too honest for BS. My only goal is to educate people in seeing both sides not just one.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #56 July 27, 2004 Quoteyou know, Darius, editing the article and removing the great comparisons to nazism and concentration camps won't make in more reliable. i know you meant well but the severity of the terms used by the author are important to see how absurd her claims are. again, i know you meant well and wanted to show respect to the forum, but you didn't write this article, and the author meant for these analogies to be read. just a thought O If you like I can put it back in. The reason I removed, as you know was I thought it had insulted you(understandably so) as per our PMs.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #57 July 27, 2004 i'm sure if i run in google "israel map" i'll get plenty of sites which show the ancient "whole" of israel that includes today's jordan and part of iraq and syria. and those sites will have lots of accurate facts on how the jews were driven out of here by the babylonians persians and later on romans. trust me, if we go by the "who was here first" rule, the result is obvious. i got to know you a little bit and i know you try to see things from all angles. just see whos source it is you quote. even the most basic facts can be described in ways that will give it a different meaning... O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #58 July 27, 2004 as i said, i didn't doubts your pure intentions. but i think its important to understand who stands behind this article. never mind, lets drop it "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crozby 0 #59 July 27, 2004 QuoteIsrael is NOT killing civilians just because palestinians do. it happens, but its not a policy nor a goal. To the people who loved the innocents who died because they were in the vacinity of a Hamas leader when his car was destroyed by an Apache helicopter it comes across that way. That keeps on happening. The pilots know they are going to kill innocents when they do that, because they always have, but they still do it anyway. However you want to paint it the decision has been made by someone at some level that in those kinds of situations Palestinian casualties are acceptable. That would make it a policy wouldn't it? Quotebut comparing him to arafat is not exactly fair... I didn't mean they are the same - Arafat is by far the biggest turd of the two, IMO. But at the same time, if Sharon really gave a shit about peace, why did he build the wall where it is - its just a massive slap in the face to the Palestians. What I was trying to say is that neither of them has the right attitude for achieving a meaningful peace so it would be better for everybody if they were both replaced by leaders who were. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites juanesky 0 #60 July 27, 2004 It seems that you forget the mess British mandate created there on the first place. On the other hand I see no rage from ANY palestinian that were kicked out/confronted by fire from Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordania. How many were killed by their own "brothers" were is the outrage? You also forget that when the partition of land was made, the jewish population had to make an exodus from the arab nations leaving all their possesions for grabs by the panarab league of nations, due to actual threats by these govt's to exterminate them if they stay. If you ignore the actual facts, where it was Israel who has had to defend itself numerous times from it arab neighbors, and these same neighbors not only took away the partition belonging to palestine, have in fact killed more palestinians that Israel has. Then you most likely will err in finding a solution. It is always the fault of Israel, and the US. If the PA is so "Factual", why is it that they condone the creation of Hamas? and worse yet, why are they not outraged that non of its arab brother have ever lend them a hand and took everything away from them?"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites falxori 0 #61 July 27, 2004 QuoteHowever you want to paint it the decision has been made by someone at some level that in those kinds of situations Palestinian casualties are acceptable. That would make it a policy wouldn't it? i meant a policy of targeting civilians. there are a lot of cases where operations are aborted because too many civilians are at risk, no matter how important the target is. but yes, sometimes the risk of civilian casulties is an acceptable risk, but its not the aim of the operation. its war. civilians get hurt. they shouldn't and they are not the target, but they do. QuoteWhat I was trying to say is that neither of them has the right attitude for achieving a meaningful peace ... since the peace process began in 1991, there were 6 israeli prime ministers . shamir, rabin, peres, netanyahu, barak, and sharon. on the other side there was always arafat. sharon has changed his position from the right to center, to a point where he pushes for pulling out from the gaza strip, and if you know his history and past position, you'll know that its a huge change. actually it is believed that only sharon who comes from the right side of the political map can actually go all the way with a peace deal, like begin did with egypt. and btw, the security fence was not sharon's idea. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crozby 0 #62 July 28, 2004 QuoteIt is always the fault of Israel, and the US. If the PA is so "Factual", why is it that they condone the creation of Hamas? Err .. no. My point was that the situation has become so bad that attrocities are committed by both sides on a regular basis. The Palestinians murder a whole load of civilians and blame it on a previous Israeli action. The Israelis follow this by murdering a whole load of civilian and claim its done in its own defence. The fact is both sides are murdering civilians and both sides think they are justified in doing so when in fact both sides are behaving like turds. The sooner everyone involved starts being a bit civilized, which means less bombing, less assassinations, less tunnels, less illegal settlements, and less fucking racism, the sooner there will be a chance to solve the problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Botellines 0 #63 July 28, 2004 I mostly agree with what you say. I realize that it is not an easy situation. However, i think that most palestinians are as sick of all the situation as most of Israelis. They probably want to be left alone. You have all that people to win to your cause. You will not make them jews (not that you may want to) but you can make them see that there is other options. At the moment, they are more afraid of hamas leaders than Israel soldiers (mainly because hamas leaders live among them) the solution is not make them fear more your army, but make them revolve against hamas. I know that BOTH sides should do something about it, but one must start, and Israel is the one claiming the moral high ground. Again, it is hard, but in my opinion the current path both sides are going is not going to help much. You may want to check about ETA and spain (and IRA in Ireland). Although our situation was not nearly as bad as yours, some of the measures taken could apply to Israel and Palestina, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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Darius11 12 #56 July 27, 2004 Quoteyou know, Darius, editing the article and removing the great comparisons to nazism and concentration camps won't make in more reliable. i know you meant well but the severity of the terms used by the author are important to see how absurd her claims are. again, i know you meant well and wanted to show respect to the forum, but you didn't write this article, and the author meant for these analogies to be read. just a thought O If you like I can put it back in. The reason I removed, as you know was I thought it had insulted you(understandably so) as per our PMs.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #57 July 27, 2004 i'm sure if i run in google "israel map" i'll get plenty of sites which show the ancient "whole" of israel that includes today's jordan and part of iraq and syria. and those sites will have lots of accurate facts on how the jews were driven out of here by the babylonians persians and later on romans. trust me, if we go by the "who was here first" rule, the result is obvious. i got to know you a little bit and i know you try to see things from all angles. just see whos source it is you quote. even the most basic facts can be described in ways that will give it a different meaning... O "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #58 July 27, 2004 as i said, i didn't doubts your pure intentions. but i think its important to understand who stands behind this article. never mind, lets drop it "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #59 July 27, 2004 QuoteIsrael is NOT killing civilians just because palestinians do. it happens, but its not a policy nor a goal. To the people who loved the innocents who died because they were in the vacinity of a Hamas leader when his car was destroyed by an Apache helicopter it comes across that way. That keeps on happening. The pilots know they are going to kill innocents when they do that, because they always have, but they still do it anyway. However you want to paint it the decision has been made by someone at some level that in those kinds of situations Palestinian casualties are acceptable. That would make it a policy wouldn't it? Quotebut comparing him to arafat is not exactly fair... I didn't mean they are the same - Arafat is by far the biggest turd of the two, IMO. But at the same time, if Sharon really gave a shit about peace, why did he build the wall where it is - its just a massive slap in the face to the Palestians. What I was trying to say is that neither of them has the right attitude for achieving a meaningful peace so it would be better for everybody if they were both replaced by leaders who were. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #60 July 27, 2004 It seems that you forget the mess British mandate created there on the first place. On the other hand I see no rage from ANY palestinian that were kicked out/confronted by fire from Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordania. How many were killed by their own "brothers" were is the outrage? You also forget that when the partition of land was made, the jewish population had to make an exodus from the arab nations leaving all their possesions for grabs by the panarab league of nations, due to actual threats by these govt's to exterminate them if they stay. If you ignore the actual facts, where it was Israel who has had to defend itself numerous times from it arab neighbors, and these same neighbors not only took away the partition belonging to palestine, have in fact killed more palestinians that Israel has. Then you most likely will err in finding a solution. It is always the fault of Israel, and the US. If the PA is so "Factual", why is it that they condone the creation of Hamas? and worse yet, why are they not outraged that non of its arab brother have ever lend them a hand and took everything away from them?"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #61 July 27, 2004 QuoteHowever you want to paint it the decision has been made by someone at some level that in those kinds of situations Palestinian casualties are acceptable. That would make it a policy wouldn't it? i meant a policy of targeting civilians. there are a lot of cases where operations are aborted because too many civilians are at risk, no matter how important the target is. but yes, sometimes the risk of civilian casulties is an acceptable risk, but its not the aim of the operation. its war. civilians get hurt. they shouldn't and they are not the target, but they do. QuoteWhat I was trying to say is that neither of them has the right attitude for achieving a meaningful peace ... since the peace process began in 1991, there were 6 israeli prime ministers . shamir, rabin, peres, netanyahu, barak, and sharon. on the other side there was always arafat. sharon has changed his position from the right to center, to a point where he pushes for pulling out from the gaza strip, and if you know his history and past position, you'll know that its a huge change. actually it is believed that only sharon who comes from the right side of the political map can actually go all the way with a peace deal, like begin did with egypt. and btw, the security fence was not sharon's idea. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #62 July 28, 2004 QuoteIt is always the fault of Israel, and the US. If the PA is so "Factual", why is it that they condone the creation of Hamas? Err .. no. My point was that the situation has become so bad that attrocities are committed by both sides on a regular basis. The Palestinians murder a whole load of civilians and blame it on a previous Israeli action. The Israelis follow this by murdering a whole load of civilian and claim its done in its own defence. The fact is both sides are murdering civilians and both sides think they are justified in doing so when in fact both sides are behaving like turds. The sooner everyone involved starts being a bit civilized, which means less bombing, less assassinations, less tunnels, less illegal settlements, and less fucking racism, the sooner there will be a chance to solve the problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #63 July 28, 2004 I mostly agree with what you say. I realize that it is not an easy situation. However, i think that most palestinians are as sick of all the situation as most of Israelis. They probably want to be left alone. You have all that people to win to your cause. You will not make them jews (not that you may want to) but you can make them see that there is other options. At the moment, they are more afraid of hamas leaders than Israel soldiers (mainly because hamas leaders live among them) the solution is not make them fear more your army, but make them revolve against hamas. I know that BOTH sides should do something about it, but one must start, and Israel is the one claiming the moral high ground. Again, it is hard, but in my opinion the current path both sides are going is not going to help much. You may want to check about ETA and spain (and IRA in Ireland). Although our situation was not nearly as bad as yours, some of the measures taken could apply to Israel and Palestina, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
