Push 0 #76 May 1, 2003 Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that people with depression are weak individuals, or that they could have done it by themselves. I just said that too many people underestimate the amount of fighting that the person himself has to do. I've been on prescribed SSRIs myself, and they seemed like they helped, but if you read that paragraph I posted you will see why I now hold the opinion that, for the majority of depression sufferers, what gets them through is the placebo effect. If, for one second, someone thinks that the placebo effect makes you weak, remember your own jumping. Ever took three deep breaths before climbing out? That's a placebo effect. Could you have triggered the same thing without the deep breaths? What is the difference between restoring serotonin levels artificially and duping the brain into doing it by itself? Neither could have been done by the individual alone. Also remember that neuropsychology today hasn't even touched the tip of the iceberg. All we know is that, somewhere, there is an iceberg, and that it seems to be made of ice. Noone knows the exact mechanism of depression. They're just making educated guesses and checking to see if they work. That depression is a serious illness is indubitable, but it's current treatment seems to be, that's all. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #77 May 1, 2003 Why should it be insulting? As far as I know, there is only one way to evaluate medical treatment, and it doesn't involve value judgements. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that marijuana helps depression sufferers. In fact, I believe we already heard that. If the statistics support it, we must accept it as a viable treatment. What's wrong with it, anyway? -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #78 May 1, 2003 QuotePlease don't put words in my mouth. I never said that people with depression are weak individuals, or that they could have done it by themselves. I just said that too many people underestimate the amount of fighting that the person himself has to do. I've been on prescribed SSRIs myself, and they seemed like they helped, but if you read that paragraph I posted you will see why I now hold the opinion that, for the majority of depression sufferers, what gets them through is the placebo effect. If, for one second, someone thinks that the placebo effect makes you weak, remember your own jumping. Ever took three deep breaths before climbing out? That's a placebo effect. Could you have triggered the same thing without the deep breaths? What is the difference between restoring serotonin levels artificially and duping the brain into doing it by itself? Neither could have been done by the individual alone. Also remember that neuropsychology today hasn't even touched the tip of the iceberg. All we know is that, somewhere, there is an iceberg, and that it seems to be made of ice. Noone knows the exact mechanism of depression. They're just making educated guesses and checking to see if they work. That depression is a serious illness is indubitable, but it's current treatment seems to be, that's all. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, I'm just saying that overcoming serious depression needs to be treated by a professional using proven results. I am willing to listen though, because it sounds like you have suffered from depression yourself and have been in those shoes. I agree that there is a lot that we don't know about how the brain works. With recent advances in technology this is changing at a rapid rate. In my own life, sky diving and other outdoor activities helped me deal with depression that came froming growing up in an abusive, neglectful, alcoholic family. (Maybe some of this was biological). But at any rate, skydiving, rodeo, hunting, etc. helped me cope, but they were far from the solution to my problems. What helped me the most was therapy and medication. These have turned my life around and made it worth living. I just have a hard time listening to people who have never suffered from serious depression talk about what people really need to do. (And this is not referring to you) I agree there are probably a lot we can learn from natural placebo effects in helping depression sufferers......Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Push 0 #79 May 1, 2003 Definitely. What you are describing is the perfect example of why depression needs to be taken seriously. It's good to hear that you were able to overcome something as serious as what happened to you. Keep up the good work. I would shake your hand if I could. -- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
highfly 0 #80 May 1, 2003 Quote I get it something terrible during the winter. Well when your winter comes pm me and we can cheer each other up. www.myspace.com/durtymac Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #81 May 1, 2003 Quote As far as "being high", I don't know what that feels like because I have never been...but I have been on medications before that give me a feeling that I would say is probably similar to being high. Either way, my point was that either way, if you are using the "medication", being Zolof or pot or alcohol, etc., to enable yourself to feel better while you straighten out your life situation, what is the difference between one and the other? -S In my mind there is a big difference between using alcohol, illegal drugs, or even incorrect use of prescription drugs in a self medicating scenario as compared to taking a medication to feel normal under a Doctors supervision. Although I have read some research that has proven that alcohol and drug abuse has kept some suicidal people alive.... But what kind of life would that be. Being stoned out of your mind to cope is a lot different than taking a medication to feel normal. (at least in my mind). Most of my relatives have taken the alcohol alternative though. I called my brother last night to congratulate him on his birthday. He was so drunk he could hardly talk. He isn't expected to live much longer because alcohol has ruined his digestive system. My father is the same way, an abusive drunk with nothing to look forward to. Yes, they are alive, but I'll be damned if I'm going to waste my life like that. I just think medication and therapy from a professional is a better route to take.....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #82 May 1, 2003 I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it. Sorry, it needed to be said.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #83 May 1, 2003 QuoteI don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it. Sorry, it needed to be said. I agree....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBS 0 #84 May 1, 2003 Steve1... You are not only putting words in my mouth, but either not giving me the benefit of at least reading my entire post/question, or ignoring what I said. If you read it, you will see that I specifically referred to people who do not "abuse" a substance, which one can do whether we speak of alcohol, pot, or doctor prescribed medication. If you read your post, you are referring to people being "so drunk they couldn't talk", "stoned out of their minds", and "abusive drunks". These are clearly not the people or use of these substances to which I was referring. Gotta run. -S_____________ I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skykitten 0 #85 May 2, 2003 Without trying to interfere in this dialogue, I would just like to point out that some people will view any sort of self-medication as 'abuse' of a substance, and others will see it as a completely harmless thing. It's generally regarded as bad if a depressed person drinks or uses drugs as a way of feeling better. Drugs and alcohol can derail a person who is using anti-depressant medications. They essentially negate any positive effects the prescription drugs have and can mess with chemical balances in the brain. On the other hand, if we're talking about an unmedicated person, there might be a time when a casual drink with friends (or whatever) could lessen symptoms and allow the person to relax. Let's throw out a hypothetical: Jane is depressed. Jane's pal, Dick, comes over with a bowl and they toke up a bit, watch a funny movie and laugh till they hurt, and Jane wakes up the next day with a grin on her face. I don't think anybody would have too much of a problem with that (minus the government and all anti-drug campaigners.) However, if Jane was smoking from the minute she got up in order to hide from the depression, to mute the symptoms without taking positive action to alleviate the depression permanently, that would be highly frowned upon. And one final point: anti-depressant medications, such as ssri's, do not cause an altered state of consciousness or impair function. (Caveat to follow) To make a pretty lame analogy, antidepressants can be compared to a stereo equalizer. When you're not depressed, the 'song' that is your life sounds fine. The bass and the treble don't overpower each other. As depression takes hold, the bass starts to get louder and louder until all you can hear is a big thud thud thud thud THUD THUD. Finally, the thud is the only thing you are conscious of, and you want to get away from it. Antidepressants can help bring back the balance to your music by slowly turning down the bass. What you are left with (hopefully) is your original song. The goal is to get your song back, not to change the radio channel, which some non-prescription drugs or use of alcohol can do. When walking up to an officer, it is not advisable to say, "Trick or Donut." Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #86 May 2, 2003 QuoteSteve1... You are not only putting words in my mouth, but either not giving me the benefit of at least reading my entire post/question, or ignoring what I said. If you read it, you will see that I specifically referred to people who do not "abuse" a substance, which one can do whether we speak of alcohol, pot, or doctor prescribed medication. If you read your post, you are referring to people being "so drunk they couldn't talk", "stoned out of their minds", and "abusive drunks". These are clearly not the people or use of these substances to which I was referring. Gotta run. -S I've read your entire post, and I'm having trouble understanding some of your statements. At one point, you mentioned that you can not see the difference between using alcohol, or pot, as compared to an antidepressant. Could you please explain this statement, because I totally disagree. It sounds like you are saying that taking a snort once in a while to even things out, or toking up when needed is comparable to taking an antidepressant. I've got lot's of relatives who started out doing that and ended up as full blown alcoholics. All I'm trying to say is that their is a big difference between self medicating with an addictive substance as compared to taking a Dr's prescription for a medication (to feel normal). Anti-depressants are not a medication to make you high or give you a buzz, etc......Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vmsfreaky1 0 #87 May 2, 2003 Hi, yeah this is a very intersting topic, having a fuked up youth personally, i did search the world over for a fix to my problems...and i did find some solace, and temporary clear mindedness in skydiving and later other "extreme" sports... drugs do fill a bit of the void however i find skydiving and other interests keep me clear headed between activities and all my efforts on staying alive keep me away from bad stuff in general. Overall its a positive. these sports have kept me alive and happy. I think there are some studies around that have linked low levels of certain brain chemicals to risk taking... ah whatever floats your proverbial...Good luck with your book. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vmsfreaky1 0 #88 May 2, 2003 QuoteIt's such an enormous confidence-builder... I totally agree! thats what it has done for as well. It helped me in all aspects of my life that i needed more confidence in (pretty much the lot). Nice to see there are ppl who were as lost as i....u dont really talk about this shite with ppl at the DZ...it's refreshing... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #89 May 2, 2003 Quote*** Nice to see there are ppl who were as lost as i....u dont really talk about this shite with ppl at the DZ...it's refreshing... I agree. For so many years if you had this sort of problem you were looked down upon as some type of nut case. Particularly if you were male. If you mentioned you had a problem with depression you might be thought of some type of weakling or even crazy. After all men are raised to be rough and tough and to stuff their feelings, right? I don't know how many years I tried that one. (Having that attitude only made things worse). It's good to know that thoughts on this are changing and I agree, it is refreshing to know that so many others have been in the same boat.....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
