jehovah witness- help needed

[sducoach 0]

You hit the nail on the head!

Only thing is my wife cost me four goats and several Franklins!!!!!

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[goose491 0]

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I'll tell you exactly why I dislike the Jehova's Witness group - excommunication (or disfellowship). When you commit what is deemed a sin and disobey god's law (determined by a judgement of church elders) then you are disfellowshipped and removed from the church. Other JW's will then treat such a person as if they do not exist (this is demanded of them unless they also with to be excommunicated) regardless of how you were related before.

Thought I'd bump this thread as I've done a little research on this topic.

(provided to me in a letter from a Whitness friend of mine):

Rather thean condemn those who may have committed serious sins, elders seek to heal and to lead to repentance if that is possible. They rejoice when they can help someone whow has gone astray. It saddens them, however, when a wrongdoer fails to repent. Then God's righteous standards require them to disfellowshitp the unrepentant one. Even then, like the father of the prodigal son, they hope that some day the erring one will "come to his senses" (Luke 15:17, 18) Thus, elders take the initiative to visit certain disfellowshipped ones to remind them how they can return to Jehovah's organization.

Elders especially need to imitate Jehovah's justice when handling cases of wrongdoing. Sinners "kept drawing near" to Jesus because the felt that he would understand and help them. (Luke 15:1; Matthew 9:12, 13) Of course, Jesus did not condone wrongdoing. One mealtime spent with Jesus moved Zacchaeus, a notorious extortioner, to repent and make amends for all the suffering he had brought upon others. (Luke 19:8-10) Elders today have the same goal at their judicial hearing - to lead the erring one to repentance. If they are apperoachables as Jesus was, many wrondoers will find it easier to seek their help.

Because the elders are, after all, only human, I can imagine it does not run picture perfect everytime but the setup sounds sound.

A sensitive heart will help elders administer divine justice, which is neither harsh nor unfeeling. Interestingly, Ezra prepared his heart, not just his mind, in orgder to teach the Israelites justice. (Ezra 7:10) An understanding heart will enable elders to apply the appropriate Scirptural principles and to take into account the circumstances of each individal. When Jesus healed the woman who had a flow of blood, he showed that Jehovah's justice means understanding the spirit as well as the letter of the law. (Luke 8:43-48) Elders who administer justice with compassion may be likened to "a hiding place from the wind" for those who haqve been buffeted by their own weaknesses or by this wicked system in which we live - Isaiah 32:2.

In the first centry, there were some who abandoned the faith for loose living. Others were turned aside because of apostate doctrines. (1 John 2:19) The same thing continues to occur among Jehovah's Witnesses in this 20th century. Sadly, in recent times it has been necessary to disfellowship tens of thousands of unrepentant wrongdoers each year. Prominent elders have been included among them. The same Scriptural requirements apply to all. (Jas 3:17) Jehovah's Witnesses realize that maintaining a morally clean organization is vital in order to continue to have Jehovah's approval.

Sometimes, in order to keep the congregation clean, elders have to disfellowship an unrepentant wrondoer. (1 Corinthisans 5:1-5) This protects the congregation. It may also help the wrongdoer. Often, such discipline has helped to bring a sinner to his/her senses. What, though, if the one disfellowshipped is a close friend or a relative? Suppose the individual is our father or mother or son or daughter. Do we nevertheless respect the action taken by the elders? True, it may be difficult. But what an abuse of our freedom it would be to question the dicision of the elders and continue to associate spiritually with one who has roved to be a currupting influence in the congregation! (2 John 10, 10) Jehovah's people as a whole are to be commended because of the way they cooperate in such matters. As a result, Jehovahs organization remains undefiled in this unclean world - James 1:27

What about being submissive when it comes to judicial decisions? Granted, this may not be easy, especially if a dicision is made to disfellowship someone we love - a relative or a close friend. Here again, it is best to yield to the judgment of the "gifts in men." They are in a position to be more objective than we can be, and they may know more of the facts. These brothers often agonize over such decisions; it is a sobering responsibility to 'judge for Jehovah' (2 Chronicles 19:6) They make every effort to be merciful, for they are mindful the God is "ready to forgive" disfellowship unrepentant wrongdoers. (1 Corinthians 5:11-13) In many cases the wrongdoer himself accepts the decision. The disciplen may be just what he needs to come to his senses. If we, his loved ones, are submissive when it comes to the decision, we may thereby be helping him to benefit from the discipline. -Hebrews 12:11.

So I found this very interesting as I found that disfellowship is a protection and definately not the be all and end all. The witnesses, as I've said, follow the teachings of Jesus to a T. Thusly, all corruption issues withing the organization aside, (there cannot be a group of humans without a level of corruption) a disfellowshipped member can always be saved. Just as God is always 'ready to forgive' the Witnesses are alway ready to re-welcome a wrongdoer who has repented.

Ian, as painful as it may have been for you childs mother to have been 'removed' and to have her mother be so cold, it's important that she realise that in her own congregations eyes, this is for her own good. Though having a child out of welock is a sin, is does not damn you if you truly seek the forgiveness of your maker. Her mother is administering no more than 'tough love' in this instance.

Karen, I hope this helps you as the very mention of 'disfellowship' is enough to send a chill down ones spine if not properly explained. I've got to say, it can't be hard to live with such hard discipline, it can't be easy to live your life according to the teaching... to the very letter. In the end, bad things do happen to good people... But the concepts of disfellowship are to protect the standards, the morality, the ethics and principals of the group as well as the individual.

Nick

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[sducoach 0]

Goose491,

I hope the letter is from another and not you as it is a perfect example of JW using Scripture justification in partial application to front their efforts. You see the greatest lie contains much truth.

Luke 15: 17-18 Is the parable of the lost son. It's a story about his FATHER's willingness and joy in excepting him back, not his coming to his senses. You don't return to an "Organization" you return to God.

Luke 15:1. Is the parable of the Lost Sheep. It's Jesus Christ's story telling to go seek the lost. NOT Disfellowship them.

Matthew 9:12-13. Again go seek the lost. It's not the healthy who need a doctor.

Luke 19:8-10. Zaccheaus sat in a tree. Jesus Christ called him down. Again Jesus sought him.

Ezra 7:10. Ezra wrote his story showing how God is the power behind earthly events. Even moving pagan kings according to his purpost. 7:10 only tells that he devoted himself to study and observance of the Law of the Lord. Which is now Jesus Christ.

Luke 8:43-48. Again, Jesus SOUGHT OUT the sinner. "Who touched me?". NOT Disfellowship!


Isaiah 32:2, The Kingdom of Righteousness. It says, "Each man WILL be like a shelter from the wind and a refuge from the storm." We WILL be shelters and refuge for the lost. Not disfellowship.

1 John 2:19. Is a warning against the Anti-Christ.
It says, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." The unsaved who did not believe truly in Jesus Christ. NOT the believers!!!

James 3:17. "But the wisdon that comes from Heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere." Sound like disfellowship???

1 Corinthians 5:1-5. Talks about sexual immorality not disbelief!
1 Corinthians 5:3-5 tells the story. "Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." Sound like disfellowship?

2 John 10:10. There is no 2 John 10:10 but, the book of 2 John is a warning about many deceivers and fall to false teaching. It tells you to not let these false teachers into your house. Take the advise.

James 1: 27. "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." We ALL are sinners don't even let a JW tell you that they are remaining "undefiled in this unclean world".

2 Chronicals 19:6 God told them to consider carefully what you do when you judge. Does it sound like they are seeking sinners out and loving the believers?

1 Corinthians 5: 11-13. "But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. Expel the wicked man from among you." NON-BELIEVERS NOT BELIEVERS who has slipped!!!!!

Hebrews 12:11. God's discipline not ours! Try verses 5 through 7. "And you have forgotten that word of encourgement that addresses you as sons: My son, do not make light of the Lord's descipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you. because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son. Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?"

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So I found this very interesting as I found that disfellowship is a protection and definately not the be all and end all. The witnesses, as I've said, follow the teachings of Jesus to a T. Thusly, all corruption issues withing the organization aside, (there cannot be a group of humans without a level of corruption) a disfellowshipped member can always be saved. Just as God is always 'ready to forgive' the Witnesses are alway ready to re-welcome a wrongdoer who has repented.

Disfellowship is not a protection it's a punishment applied by sinful men. The "Witnesses" do not follow the teachings of Jesus to a "T". As sinners they are not capable.
A "disfellowshipped member" cannot be saved. They already are if they truly believe in Jesus Christ regardless of what the "Witness's" do to try and force their doctrine upon them.

READ the WHOLE BOOK!!!!!

Blues,

J.E.

James 4:8

[goose491 0]

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So I was right with the 144,000 number. Guess I'm getting your spot, goose

Touche . And nice post jumpervali.
On the plus side: since I thought it was 140,000, I can now re-fellowship a whole bunch of people! I'll be so happy to reserve 'em seats.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[goose491 0]

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Goose491,

I hope the letter is from another and not you as it is a perfect example of JW using Scripture justification in partial application to front their efforts.

Just as my post states. "done a little research... provided to me in a letter... J.W. friend of mine." That which isn't in italics, I wrote. thing she told me about it.

And in my first post to this thread: "Now I'm not a very religious person at all beleive me... But I love people so religion is a favorite topic for me as it teaches me more and more about the differences in people. "

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The "Witnesses" do not follow the teachings of Jesus to a "T". As sinners they are not capable.

By nature of being Christian at all, you confess that you are a Sinner.

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A "disfellowshipped member" cannot be saved. They already are if they truly believe in Jesus Christ regardless of what the "Witness's" do to try and force their doctrine upon them.

By definition of being "disfellowshipped" by the J.W., you have chosen not to repent your sinns. I thought the sinner that does not repent is not saved. And the letter did include Thus, elders take the initiative to visit certain disfellowshipped ones to remind them how they can return to Jehovah's organization.>

I want to beleive the good-intent of this messase... though it does say 'certain'.

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READ the WHOLE BOOK!!!!!

That wasn't very nice seeing as I clearly indicated that what I was posting was writen by a Jehova Witness friend of mine. It was in no way a reflection of me... just info. I have read the entire book. And I think yours was a wonderful post. In fact, I think I'll print it and save it as a FAQ for the next JW that happens to catch me at home during the afternoon.

I'm not kidding about your post either. Very very good. Personally, I don't beleive in disassociation with sinners either. More than once, I have read that book and I never got that impression from J.C. [scracthing head]

Blues,

Nick

[goose491 0]

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My reaction is to love him and let him go--- his path of his choice.

{{{VIBES}}} your way smiles.
N

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[shedao 0]

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Ian, as painful as it may have been for you childs mother to have been 'removed' and to have her mother be so cold, it's important that she realise that in her own congregations eyes, this is for her own good. Though having a child out of welock is a sin, is does not damn you if you truly seek the forgiveness of your maker. Her mother is administering no more than 'tough love' in this instance.

Fair enough. I just think this practice breeds nothing but conflict within a family, which IMO should have a stronger bond than any bond to a man-made organization. Choosing to love god, follow his path, and putting no one before him doesn't mean put no one before the church. They seem to put themselves and their practices in the place of God, speaking for God and his wishes and I disagree with that.

I still talk to both her and her mother and both are good people, just with different beliefs about what is right. Hopefully one day they can call a "truce".

[bobsled92 0]

Well put.
The Bible Teaches Christian/Judeo faith(old&new testement) fact and point. I the end it states that if you change ANY word or meaning(which is the basis of thus thread) That that/those persons will pay more than with thier life.
I was Catholic & wives were: Nazerene & Menonite (don't know what the next one's faith will be)
United Methodist sounds good but, the Bible's words will stay the same.

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[souleh 0]

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If you let them into your life, they'll bleed you dry, telling you that you have to give everything you own to them or you won't be one of the "Chosen"reply]

Sorry, don't mean to highjack here.. but that sounds a lot like becoming a skydiver

'buttplugs? where?' - geno

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[shedao 0]

Yeah the screwed up thing about the bible was the fact that it's been translated so many times and is comprised of so many works. Might as well be a compilation of ancient Mayan works translated to old english via morse code. Then throw in the fact that some people take every word literally and you got a conflict waiting to happen.

But still the general meaning is there. 'Thou shall not kill' is kinda hard to not understand, regardless of translation.

[Nightingale 0]

I believe the list of translation was:

Oral Tradition
Aramaic
Latin
Greek
English/modern languages


ever played telephone??

[skreamer 1]

Sounds like my grandpa, he was a tough old Scotsman who emigrated to South Africa during the Great Depression. Anyway, he and my dad were walking along in Cape Town when this happy clappy bible basher confronts him and asks 'Sir, Sir, do you know where you are going when you die?'. Grandpa replies 'What do ya mean mon?'. Bible basher replies 'Sir, are you going to heaven or to hell?'. To this my grandpa replied 'Och it dinnae make no difference to me mon, I've got friends in both places!'.

Two days before he died we went to visit him in hospital, my dad asked if everything was OK. He replied 'Aye, but the engineer who designed this bed-pan had a square arse!!'.

My grandpa was a real character.
Will

[bobsled92 0]

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I believe the list of translation was:

Oral Tradition
Aramaic
Latin
Greek
English/modern languages


ever played telephone??

*
YES!! that's how I view the events of the Church rule over man at the Dark Ages.
Putting wierd little rules that self serve.('why I left Catholic College)

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/