Jeff.Donohue 0 #1 November 4, 2005 I'm one of those people who tries to do everything at the same time (damn you, ADHD), and in addition to finishing out getting my A License, I have decided I want to get a private pilot's license (I'll go for the private pilot's license first and then do instrument ratings if the funds don't run out). I know virtually nothing about that process. I've found a few near by flight schools, but I'm curious what all of the pilots here recommend that I should look for in a school (right now, all I can do to compare them is see which one has the prettier looking airplanes -- like a crow, I'm a sucker for shiny metallic objects). Thoughts on what I should read before I get started? Is there an equivalent of dropzone.com for pilots? Is there an equivalent of a SIM? If not, is there a "Flight School for Dummies"-style book that you'd recommend? Thanks! Thoughts? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andre1 0 #2 November 4, 2005 http://www.studentpilot.com/ Read the Message Board. There is a lot of information on the experiences of student pilots and seasoned pilots. http://www.aopa.org/ Another helpful sight. You can get six free issues of their monthly magazine. It has a lot of useful information for student pilots. http://www.beapilot.com/indexfl.html This sight has a ton of information about learning to be a pilot. I am a student pilot in Philadelphia. Good luck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GARYC24 3 #3 November 4, 2005 www.aopa.org There you can sign up and get a monthly mag. It's got some good stuff and other type of links. I myself have taken some lessons, however, decided to stop and double up truck payments to pay off in 5-6 mths. THEN take up lessons after that, should be early next year. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GiaKrembs 0 #4 November 4, 2005 Hey Gary, Are you using a school at Camarillo / or Oxnard??? I'd really like to get into it after the Holidays (my car will be payed off as well), and I'm curious about the schools in the area - recommendations. g Raddest ho this side of Jersey #1 - rest in peace brother Beth lost her cherry and I missed it .... you want access to it, but you don't want to break it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GARYC24 3 #5 November 4, 2005 Oxnard. CP Aviation (cpaviation.com) I may take a intro flight for $50 Channel Islands (camarillo) and add that in log book. Ya know you can take these intro lessons and their not that much and fun..this is a very nice area. I wish I was taking a lesson today, their doing Fear Factor on Ventura pier! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ashtanga 0 #6 November 4, 2005 QuoteLearning to fly But I ain't got wings... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #7 November 5, 2005 The equivalent of the SIM is the AIM (aeronautical information manual) and FARs. All of it is available online, but you'll want to buy the books (they sell combined FAR/AIM books). There are two basic types of flight schools. Most are "regular" flight school (FAR part 91), but some are specially approved "part 141" schools. 141 schools require you to follow a syllabus and buy certain books, etc. They have a very set plan for how every student gets taught. Part 91 schools are usually smaller and more personallized. If you want to do it quickly, you're probably better off at a part 141 school. Legally at a 141 school you can get your license in as little as 35 hours. 40 are needed at other schools, but the national average either way you go is much higher than that. Pick whatever flight school makes you feel comfortable. You'll spend an awfully long time in a cramped space with an instructor that you will swear is trying to kill you (he thinks you're trying to kill him), so choose a place you think you'll like. You can shop by price too... no need to learn to fly in brand new Cessna 172s when you can save tons of money learning in old ass 152s. A good book to buy is anything by Rod Machado... he writes a student pilot handbook that's really good. Ask the different flight schools what books they recommend (or require) for their students. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wartload 0 #8 November 5, 2005 First of all, see if you can find a community college in your area that offers ground school. That's the grunt work involved in getting a license. Get that out of the way first, if someone offers it (community colleges are relatively inexpensive, too). Take that, pass the written, and then start flying...you'll have 2 years from the time you passed the written test. Have your cash, attitude, and commitment all ready to go when you start to fly. Try *very* hard to fly with your instructor 2-3 times a week. People who get in an hour every week or two lose most of what they'd learned between lessons. Don't waste time and money by stretching it out. On the other hand, don't try to fly every day. Have a day between lessons to think about what you did. "Fly" inside your head. Don't be afraid to get off by yourself, sit in a chair, and go through what you've been practicing in your mind. Close your eyes and imagine what everything looks like in the cockpit, etc. Go through the motions of a takeoff, landing, etc. This is FREE and any repetition helps you to remember how to do it when you are on the clock with your instructor. Don't get frustrated. Just about the time that you figure you'll NEVER get it right, and everything seems to be going to shit in your landings, you'll have that epiphone that makes it all come together. Have fun...even when your palms are dripping sweat. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velvetjo 0 #9 November 6, 2005 Ditto on the Rod Machado books, they're great. I've found them useful as references after the ratings too. Either the King or Sporty's video courses are a good substitute for ground school if you're reasonably self-motivated. The King checkride videos are great for knowing what to expect, and the ASA Oral Exam Guides are a must for checkride prep. I read & posted on studentpilot.com for a while when I got started flying. It's a good resource, but the regular posters there seem to have a stick up of their butts at times...it got old after a while. MS Flight simulator can be really handy for learning navigation concepts. You can't log time you spend flying it, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper to learn how to intercept a VOR radial on your PC than in the air. Instrument procedures are where it really shines, but don't expect to learn squat about takeoffs or landings from it. As for instructors, try to hook up with someone whose teaching style works with your learning style. A good variety of experiences in an instructor helps too. If you can find a CFI who flys turbine AC for a living but flies small vintage aircraft for fun, that's probably your guy. Don't worry too much about how an aircraft looks. The engine & avionics are a lot more important than paint & interior when it comes to safety & learning. Besides, if you found the right CFI, the AC is probably mechanically sound too. I just had my first tailwheel lesson today, and it was a humbling experience. Boy, was it fun to feel like a student pilot again! Remember that there's always something new to be learned everytime you fly, and you'll do fine. Have fun! Lance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MGSkyFlyer 0 #10 November 6, 2005 I would agree with the Rod Machado books, he has a great way of adding humor into the learning process. As far as the ground school portion...I have really mixed feelings about this. As a CFI I think over the past years I may have charged for about 5 hrs tops to students. I just felt that charging someone for a conversation you could have over a beer was really messed up. So actually I had my students do just that, buy a beer. The best sources are those people who are already at the airport. How did you get into jumping? You showed up, you threw yourself into the DZ and just hung out. Same thing with aviation. After your lesson hang out around the airport. Some of the best pilots are just hanging out in their hangar with oodles of awesome stories that you can benefit from. Yes study on your own, chair fly, and dream about it. A really great site is www.skygod.com He talks about the inner art of airmenship. I know it may sound like it's way out in left field, but if anyone can be a pilot, very few actually appreciate the beauty of it. You are about ready to embark on a new journey...a path that leads into the blue sky above you. It will change your life forever if you let not only your mind grow, but your heart as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gravitysucks 0 #11 November 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteLearning to fly But I ain't got wings... ...coming down is the hardest thing. Landing an airplane is scary, I'd much rather jump out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,651 #12 November 6, 2005 QuoteI would agree with the Rod Machado books, he has a great way of adding humor into the learning process. As far as the ground school portion...I have really mixed feelings about this. I took no ground school at all. Just read the books. It's not exactly rocket science. The hardest part was learning all the abbreviations in weather reports and forecasts, and I don't see how ground school would help with that. ASEL in 41.8 hours, Instrument in 41.4 hours, Glider in 10 solo flights.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MGSkyFlyer 0 #13 November 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteI would agree with the Rod Machado books, he has a great way of adding humor into the learning process. As far as the ground school portion...I have really mixed feelings about this. I took no ground school at all. Just read the books. It's not exactly rocket science. The hardest part was learning all the abbreviations in weather reports and forecasts, and I don't see how ground school would help with that. ASEL in 41.8 hours, Instrument in 41.4 hours, Glider in 10 solo flights. That's a great accomplishment that you were able to get your certificates with that flight time. However do not confuse effort with results. The result is the same...to attain a pilot certificate. Some people learn better in groups, others can go solo. Neither is more correct. Just for the F.Y.I. if you can not see how ground school could help, then maybe you are looking to closely into the mirror. Take a step back. Just like jumping, hearing anothers perspective, or sitting down for another safety meeting can help. The pilot who teaches himself has a fool for a student. — Robert Livingston, 'Flying The Aeronca' Personally, my greatest achievements in flying had nothing to do with numbers...it was all about moments... and quite honestly, I would like to be remembered for the moments, and not the numbers when this journey is all said and done. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,651 #14 November 6, 2005 QuoteQuote The pilot who teaches himself has a fool for a student. — Robert Livingston, 'Flying The Aeronca' . Well, I suppose Orville and Wilbur Wright, Louis Bleriot, Santos-Dumont and other pioneers were fools then, but on the whole I'd rank them over Robert Livingston.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MGSkyFlyer 0 #15 November 6, 2005 I am sorry you believe those people where the FIRST...aviation has been around for alot longer than that. The Wrights definitely help advance aviation immensley, however, they did not come up with this "idea" to fly on their own. Look at skydiving even.... Out rank? we are all on the same field...it's called life, we all dream, we all live together. Not sure if you talk to all women like this, but simmer down. And for your information you may want to a quick search on Robert Livingston...you may be surprised with your "ranking" comment. It's a good thing God does not rank... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,651 #16 November 7, 2005 QuoteI am sorry you believe those people where the FIRST...aviation has been around for alot longer than that. The Wrights definitely help advance aviation immensley, however, they did not come up with this "idea" to fly on their own. Look at skydiving even.... Out rank? we are all on the same field...it's called life, we all dream, we all live together. Not sure if you talk to all women like this, but simmer down. And for your information you may want to a quick search on Robert Livingston...you may be surprised with your "ranking" comment. It's a good thing God does not rank... What has gender or God to do with it? Who taught Jimmy Doolittle how to fly instruments, or was he a fool too?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #17 November 7, 2005 I also agree about MS flight sim. I was introduced to FS4 (back in 1991) at the flight school I started at. You can't learn the "feel" of flying from it, but you can learn a LOT. The more realistic you make your imaginary flights, the more you can learn and practice from it. Probably best to use it to recreate real flights you did with your instructor and practice what you were taught. You can pick up bad habits easily too... Took up a friend years ago that had a lot of flight sim practice. I was amazed how well he could hold altitude and stay on course. That stuff really works! As far as ground school, I agree with whoever said different things work for different people. I bought books and learned it on my own for the most part. There's a ton of different things to learn, but most of them aren't too hard to understand... especially from the Machado books or many others. If you have any questions, you can always ask your instructor and maybe do some real ground school privately as needed. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wartload 0 #18 November 7, 2005 Quote Well, I suppose Orville and Wilbur Wright, Louis Bleriot, Santos-Dumont and other pioneers were fools then, but on the whole I'd rank them over Robert Livingston. The Wrights, Louis Bleriot, and Glenn Curtiss all developed flight schools, so that people would learn to fly their airplanes safely. Alberto Santos-DuMont was an open advocate of flight instruction and safety. I'm rather certain that all of them would have found your statement to be a bit foolish. Ever seen the figures on how many of those self-taught pioneer aviators died in plane crashes? Also, given the experience and total number of hours that Bob Livingston has in light aircraft, I also feel certain that all of the above gentlemen would find him to be a tremendous resource. If you want to talk about early American aviation and aviators, be prepared. I think that I can hang in there with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flytex 0 #19 November 7, 2005 Couple of comments to add/reinforce what's been said. Picking a school & an instructor. As best your able try to determine if your instructor will be there for the duration of your training. A lot of young instructors are building time for another job and maybe on their way out. Although there are benefits in flying with diff instructors as they may have different techniques for accomplishing the same task, it can make your progress slower. Make sure you have enough funds/time to push through your training once you start. You want to fly at least once or twice a week. Otherwise, it will typically take you longer & more cash. You'll have to spend time re-learning previous skills that initially degrade very rapidly, as they are not yet engrained. Speaking of time...not really knowing your personal situation & the weather where you're at...but starting in the fall can be more difficult as you do not have the benefit of longer days (to fly after work), and just like jumping, weather can delay your progress...again making it more expensive. Good luck...I mostly use my plane these days flying to diff DZ's to jump....very usefull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeff.Donohue 0 #20 November 7, 2005 Thanks to all who responded. This has all been very helpful! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites itllclear 1 #21 November 7, 2005 Just to emphasize one often over looked aspect that often leads to frustration for student pilots. It's not only eye to hand coordination that matters. It really helps if you know the aerodynamic principles involved in making certain control inputs to get certain results. A lot of things are counter intuitive to someone who drives a car. For instance, in a car, when you add power, you go faster. In a plane, adding power without making other control inputs will make the plane climb and likely lose a little speed. If you understand WHAT is happening and WHY, it will be easier to remember WHAT to do in a specific situation. When it comes to navigation, there are no visible road signs. If you get lost, you can't pull over and look at a map; you have to keep flying. Depending on how lost you are, you could be in a canyon too narrow for a 180, or in restricted airspace which will find an F-16 firing tracers in front of you. If you run out of fuel... Knowledge of weather is also important. Unless you're flying a VERY expensive airplane (think airliner), even if you have an instrument rating you can't land if you can't see the ground. Ice on the wings can reduce your lift, and turbulence can do more damage to your plane than any pot hole ever did to your car. I advise students to anticipate spending at least 3 hours of ground study and preparation for each productive flight hour. Think about how much time a 4-way team spends dirt diving a 1 minute skydive! If you don't take the time to study to prepare for each flight, you probably won't get as much from the lesson. As you know from skydiving, so much happens in the air that you have a hard time remembering it all. I encourage my students to patch a tape recorder to the intercom, so they can play the tape back between flights to help them remember what happened during the lesson. This is especially useful when it comes to radio communication. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions. Harry Leicher, D-6366 2004 Flight Instructor of the Year FAA Western Pacific Region Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,651 #22 November 8, 2005 QuoteQuote Well, I suppose Orville and Wilbur Wright, Louis Bleriot, Santos-Dumont and other pioneers were fools then, but on the whole I'd rank them over Robert Livingston. The Wrights, Louis Bleriot, and Glenn Curtiss all developed flight schools, so that people would learn to fly their airplanes safely. Alberto Santos-DuMont was an open advocate of flight instruction and safety. I'm rather certain that all of them would have found your statement to be a bit foolish. Ever seen the figures on how many of those self-taught pioneer aviators died in plane crashes? ... If you want to talk about early American aviation and aviators, be prepared. I think that I can hang in there with you. Oooh, now I'm impressed. The statement in dispute can only be true IF the Wrights, Bleriot, A.V. Roe, Glenn Curtis, Doolittle et al. were fools. It has nothing to do with any schools they established. Do YOU think the Wrights, Bleriot and Doolittle were "fools"? Yes or no? If no, then the statement is false.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wartload 0 #23 November 8, 2005 Quote Oooh, now I'm impressed. The statement in dispute can only be true IF the Wrights, Bleriot, A.V. Roe, Glenn Curtis, Doolittle et al. were fools. It has nothing to do with any schools they established. Do YOU think the Wrights, Bleriot and Doolittle were "fools"? Yes or no? If no, then the statement is false. No. I don't think that they were fools, but I don't entirely agree with your premise, either. A fool does something that has great inherent risk without first availing themselves of all resources available to minimize, if not eliminate, those risks. The Wrights didn't just build a machine that they thought would fly and then launch it off a cliff. They studied all available resources, then refined (and corrected) the information accumulated by others who had achieved some degree of success before them. They tested models in a wind tunnel that they built. Finally, they tested the full-scale machine in clearly incremental stages -- kites, gliders, and powered airplane -- even finding a site where the effects of impact with the ground would be lessened before attempting manned flights. Curtiss (not Curtis) took the same incremental approach as part of Bell's AEA. So did Louis Bleriot and Alberto Santos-Dumont. Curtiss observed, and learned from, the mistakes of Selfridge, J.A.D. McCurdy, and others involved with building and flying the AEA machines. Doolittle's first "fog flying" demonstration, using nothing but instruments, was the product of many thousand human hours of development, experimentation, and simulation. The quotation inherently assumes that flight instructors are available. That was not the case for the Wrights, Bleriot, or Curtiss. It was the case for those others whom the Wrights, Curtiss, and Bleriot taught to fly--and all of us who have followed them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,651 #24 November 8, 2005 QuoteQuoteDo YOU think the Wrights, Bleriot and Doolittle were "fools"? Yes or no? If no, then the statement is false. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Thank you. I still wonder why she quoted the statement in the first place; no-one suggested that anyone teach themselves how to fly.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #25 November 8, 2005 Way to ruin a perfectly good quote. It was clearly in response to "I took no ground school at all. Just read the books." It obviously wasn't a perfect fit. But your argument was just dumb. Seriously. You were arguing with Robert Livingston, which seems pretty pointless to me since he's not here. "The Wright Brothers were dumbasses" - Robert Livingston Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
MGSkyFlyer 0 #15 November 6, 2005 I am sorry you believe those people where the FIRST...aviation has been around for alot longer than that. The Wrights definitely help advance aviation immensley, however, they did not come up with this "idea" to fly on their own. Look at skydiving even.... Out rank? we are all on the same field...it's called life, we all dream, we all live together. Not sure if you talk to all women like this, but simmer down. And for your information you may want to a quick search on Robert Livingston...you may be surprised with your "ranking" comment. It's a good thing God does not rank... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,651 #16 November 7, 2005 QuoteI am sorry you believe those people where the FIRST...aviation has been around for alot longer than that. The Wrights definitely help advance aviation immensley, however, they did not come up with this "idea" to fly on their own. Look at skydiving even.... Out rank? we are all on the same field...it's called life, we all dream, we all live together. Not sure if you talk to all women like this, but simmer down. And for your information you may want to a quick search on Robert Livingston...you may be surprised with your "ranking" comment. It's a good thing God does not rank... What has gender or God to do with it? Who taught Jimmy Doolittle how to fly instruments, or was he a fool too?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #17 November 7, 2005 I also agree about MS flight sim. I was introduced to FS4 (back in 1991) at the flight school I started at. You can't learn the "feel" of flying from it, but you can learn a LOT. The more realistic you make your imaginary flights, the more you can learn and practice from it. Probably best to use it to recreate real flights you did with your instructor and practice what you were taught. You can pick up bad habits easily too... Took up a friend years ago that had a lot of flight sim practice. I was amazed how well he could hold altitude and stay on course. That stuff really works! As far as ground school, I agree with whoever said different things work for different people. I bought books and learned it on my own for the most part. There's a ton of different things to learn, but most of them aren't too hard to understand... especially from the Machado books or many others. If you have any questions, you can always ask your instructor and maybe do some real ground school privately as needed. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wartload 0 #18 November 7, 2005 Quote Well, I suppose Orville and Wilbur Wright, Louis Bleriot, Santos-Dumont and other pioneers were fools then, but on the whole I'd rank them over Robert Livingston. The Wrights, Louis Bleriot, and Glenn Curtiss all developed flight schools, so that people would learn to fly their airplanes safely. Alberto Santos-DuMont was an open advocate of flight instruction and safety. I'm rather certain that all of them would have found your statement to be a bit foolish. Ever seen the figures on how many of those self-taught pioneer aviators died in plane crashes? Also, given the experience and total number of hours that Bob Livingston has in light aircraft, I also feel certain that all of the above gentlemen would find him to be a tremendous resource. If you want to talk about early American aviation and aviators, be prepared. I think that I can hang in there with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flytex 0 #19 November 7, 2005 Couple of comments to add/reinforce what's been said. Picking a school & an instructor. As best your able try to determine if your instructor will be there for the duration of your training. A lot of young instructors are building time for another job and maybe on their way out. Although there are benefits in flying with diff instructors as they may have different techniques for accomplishing the same task, it can make your progress slower. Make sure you have enough funds/time to push through your training once you start. You want to fly at least once or twice a week. Otherwise, it will typically take you longer & more cash. You'll have to spend time re-learning previous skills that initially degrade very rapidly, as they are not yet engrained. Speaking of time...not really knowing your personal situation & the weather where you're at...but starting in the fall can be more difficult as you do not have the benefit of longer days (to fly after work), and just like jumping, weather can delay your progress...again making it more expensive. Good luck...I mostly use my plane these days flying to diff DZ's to jump....very usefull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeff.Donohue 0 #20 November 7, 2005 Thanks to all who responded. This has all been very helpful! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
itllclear 1 #21 November 7, 2005 Just to emphasize one often over looked aspect that often leads to frustration for student pilots. It's not only eye to hand coordination that matters. It really helps if you know the aerodynamic principles involved in making certain control inputs to get certain results. A lot of things are counter intuitive to someone who drives a car. For instance, in a car, when you add power, you go faster. In a plane, adding power without making other control inputs will make the plane climb and likely lose a little speed. If you understand WHAT is happening and WHY, it will be easier to remember WHAT to do in a specific situation. When it comes to navigation, there are no visible road signs. If you get lost, you can't pull over and look at a map; you have to keep flying. Depending on how lost you are, you could be in a canyon too narrow for a 180, or in restricted airspace which will find an F-16 firing tracers in front of you. If you run out of fuel... Knowledge of weather is also important. Unless you're flying a VERY expensive airplane (think airliner), even if you have an instrument rating you can't land if you can't see the ground. Ice on the wings can reduce your lift, and turbulence can do more damage to your plane than any pot hole ever did to your car. I advise students to anticipate spending at least 3 hours of ground study and preparation for each productive flight hour. Think about how much time a 4-way team spends dirt diving a 1 minute skydive! If you don't take the time to study to prepare for each flight, you probably won't get as much from the lesson. As you know from skydiving, so much happens in the air that you have a hard time remembering it all. I encourage my students to patch a tape recorder to the intercom, so they can play the tape back between flights to help them remember what happened during the lesson. This is especially useful when it comes to radio communication. Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions. Harry Leicher, D-6366 2004 Flight Instructor of the Year FAA Western Pacific Region Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,651 #22 November 8, 2005 QuoteQuote Well, I suppose Orville and Wilbur Wright, Louis Bleriot, Santos-Dumont and other pioneers were fools then, but on the whole I'd rank them over Robert Livingston. The Wrights, Louis Bleriot, and Glenn Curtiss all developed flight schools, so that people would learn to fly their airplanes safely. Alberto Santos-DuMont was an open advocate of flight instruction and safety. I'm rather certain that all of them would have found your statement to be a bit foolish. Ever seen the figures on how many of those self-taught pioneer aviators died in plane crashes? ... If you want to talk about early American aviation and aviators, be prepared. I think that I can hang in there with you. Oooh, now I'm impressed. The statement in dispute can only be true IF the Wrights, Bleriot, A.V. Roe, Glenn Curtis, Doolittle et al. were fools. It has nothing to do with any schools they established. Do YOU think the Wrights, Bleriot and Doolittle were "fools"? Yes or no? If no, then the statement is false.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wartload 0 #23 November 8, 2005 Quote Oooh, now I'm impressed. The statement in dispute can only be true IF the Wrights, Bleriot, A.V. Roe, Glenn Curtis, Doolittle et al. were fools. It has nothing to do with any schools they established. Do YOU think the Wrights, Bleriot and Doolittle were "fools"? Yes or no? If no, then the statement is false. No. I don't think that they were fools, but I don't entirely agree with your premise, either. A fool does something that has great inherent risk without first availing themselves of all resources available to minimize, if not eliminate, those risks. The Wrights didn't just build a machine that they thought would fly and then launch it off a cliff. They studied all available resources, then refined (and corrected) the information accumulated by others who had achieved some degree of success before them. They tested models in a wind tunnel that they built. Finally, they tested the full-scale machine in clearly incremental stages -- kites, gliders, and powered airplane -- even finding a site where the effects of impact with the ground would be lessened before attempting manned flights. Curtiss (not Curtis) took the same incremental approach as part of Bell's AEA. So did Louis Bleriot and Alberto Santos-Dumont. Curtiss observed, and learned from, the mistakes of Selfridge, J.A.D. McCurdy, and others involved with building and flying the AEA machines. Doolittle's first "fog flying" demonstration, using nothing but instruments, was the product of many thousand human hours of development, experimentation, and simulation. The quotation inherently assumes that flight instructors are available. That was not the case for the Wrights, Bleriot, or Curtiss. It was the case for those others whom the Wrights, Curtiss, and Bleriot taught to fly--and all of us who have followed them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,651 #24 November 8, 2005 QuoteQuoteDo YOU think the Wrights, Bleriot and Doolittle were "fools"? Yes or no? If no, then the statement is false. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No. Thank you. I still wonder why she quoted the statement in the first place; no-one suggested that anyone teach themselves how to fly.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #25 November 8, 2005 Way to ruin a perfectly good quote. It was clearly in response to "I took no ground school at all. Just read the books." It obviously wasn't a perfect fit. But your argument was just dumb. Seriously. You were arguing with Robert Livingston, which seems pretty pointless to me since he's not here. "The Wright Brothers were dumbasses" - Robert Livingston Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
