gweeks 1 #1 August 10, 2006 http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2006/08/09/jumper-wires.html Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydave44 0 #2 August 10, 2006 That sucks! this guy is lucky to be alive!________________________________________ "We make our own rules, We pave our own paths, We write our own destinies, We 'live' our own lives" ________________________________________ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lonnie 0 #3 August 10, 2006 Already posted here http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2374020;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unreadNEVER GIVE UP! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base736 0 #4 August 10, 2006 Thanks for posting this. I was contacted, this morning, by somebody from CBC Montreal. I suspect this helps make sense of that... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ahalley 0 #5 August 16, 2006 What a sad story!!! Hopefully this will not happen on your side of the world! This power antenna is a very difficult object to jump. No landing area, just the thinny access road to this small artificial island surrounded by water and high currents of the Saint Laurence River, there were no possibilities to land under the tower. Seriously hardcore... 3 guys dicided to jump that night. The more experienced, René Deveault, has only 4 months as a BASE jumper and no more than 20 BASE jumps. He lead the others including the injured one who had 2 jumps at the time... They planned to jumped face wind from the center of a positive object... Obviously the beginner went first and made the news with his bleeding face... René his already a dealer for the Asylum rigs in Montreal... Maybe Asylum should reconsider his dealership !!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XDV 0 #6 August 16, 2006 I would like to clarify lots of thing here concerning the accident that happened last week. First of all I am not an avid person of forums because like the case here it show only opinion of people who was not there and do not know all the factors. For Mrs. Alex Haley, think he should asks questions to people who was there before giving an opinion, this is valid for me and all persons who wish giving an opinion somewhere. I will try to get in contact with him, to explain the whole story from an other point of view, then the news, or other people who was not there. For other people I would like to explain a bit more what really happened. 1- I was not leading anyone, we were a group of 3 jumpers and no one leading more then others. 2- My BASE resume is 4 months with 30 jumps, 5 on that site 3- this is not a hardcore tower as describe by other, this tower are jumped by the arms, that mean you are about 25 feet from the structure went you exit the tower and the parallel meet point is around 75 feet of the ground, the height of were our friend touch it. 4- The landing zone is very easy on no wind condition, like landing a 747 on a long runway. 5- 5 persons with experience been there juste after the accident, knowing what it is needed for a jump this include the first police officer on the scene, 2 other jumpers who arrived 30 minutes later, me and an the other jumper. 6- The jumper injured is a skydiver with 850 skydives in 3 years, and been recommended by and experience BASE jumper of the area, this was is third jump. 7- This is a very simple story; the exit was good with only a small impulsion, opening on heading after hand held jump with less then a second of delay. After opening the jumper NEVER release the break…. And meet the tower at around 75 feet were he get stuck after a vertical descent. 8- Why he never release the break … only him can answer that question, we asked him but he does not remember. He had been brief several time about the whole jump process. He knew he had to grab the toggles but he never did Wind condition was 0 at ground level, at 420 feet I will explain in term of spit test, to be more precise, I remember to spit lots of time to check the wind because of proximity of the water we do not want wind. It was a face wind but very little, on spit test it curved about 1 feet for 100 feet this is easier then giving a number that is not what it was. I have talked with other BASE jumpers who knows this place and tower jump, and what we think at first as going backward is a optical effect of the structure growing up at the base. Lights condition was excellent it was full moon. If anybody wants more detail or fact, feel free to email me with your phone number, that will be a pleasure the explain the entire story to minimize the propagation of false information. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parafredo 0 #7 August 17, 2006 Very well explained,some people should consider to read this thread instead of reading stupid crap of the news stuff.Thanks for this one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 980 0 #8 August 17, 2006 Quote1- I was not leading anyone, we were a group of 3 jumpers and no one leading more then others. 2- My BASE resume is 4 months with 30 jumps, 5 on that site So since we know that one of the other two jumpers had 2 jumps, this begs the question: How many jumps did the 3rd person have? A person with 2 jumps requires some ‘leading’ and people jumping with them should be aware of this. Quote3- this is not a hardcore tower as describe by other, this tower are jumped by the arms, that mean you are about 25 feet from the structure went you exit the tower and the parallel meet point is around 75 feet of the ground, the height of were our friend touch it. How high is the exit from the ground? Quote7- This is a very simple story; the exit was good with only a small impulsion, opening on heading after hand held jump with less then a second of delay. After opening the jumper NEVER release the break…. And meet the tower at around 75 feet were he get stuck after a vertical descent. How is an exit with only a little push good? Again, what height is the tower? How long from opening to object strike? (time) Quote8- Why he never release the break … only him can answer that question, we asked him but he does not remember. He had been brief several time about the whole jump process. He knew he had to grab the toggles but he never did Who briefed him? QuoteWind condition was 0 at ground level, at 420 feet I will explain in term of spit test, to be more precise, I remember to spit lots of time to check the wind because of proximity of the water we do not want wind. It was a face wind but very little, on spit test it curved about 1 feet for 100 feet this is easier then giving a number that is not what it was. I have talked with other BASE jumpers who knows this place and tower jump, and what we think at first as going backward is a optical effect of the structure growing up at the base. Did you use any other way than the spit test to gauge the winds? It really sounds as if you jumped into a headwind. What kind of canopy was the injured jumper using? What is his wingloading? How deep are his brake settings? QuoteIf anybody wants more detail or fact, feel free to email me with your phone number, that will be a pleasure the explain the entire story to minimize the propagation of false information. I would rather have you answer the questions I posted here, because I know other people reading this would like to know too and more people can learn from this incident this way. thanks Sam Share this post Link to post Share on other sites XDV 0 #9 August 17, 2006 QuoteSo since we know that one of the other two jumpers had 2 jumps, this begs the question: How many jumps did the 3rd person have? The other one have 15 jumps QuoteA person with 2 jumps requires some ‘leading’ and people jumping with them should be aware of this. This is a more base on discution and we give him the best of what we knew. QuoteHow high is the exit from the ground? exit point is at 420 feet with a clearing of around 25 from the structure. QuoteHow is an exit with only a little push good? I mean the body was perfect and only the push could be stronger QuoteAgain, what height is the tower? How long from opening to object strike? (time) 420 at exit point and 5 to 6 secondes between opening and strike. Quote Who briefed him? Both other 2 talk about the importance of the exit, the canopy control ( the whole process..) QuoteDid you use any other way than the spit test to gauge the winds? No exept felling on our face QuoteIt really sounds as if you jumped into a headwind. yes and it is stipulate in the post, but it was looking insignifiant QuoteWhat kind of canopy was the injured jumper using? What is his wingloading? How deep are his brake settings? BlackJAck 220 the guy is 125 not geared, and the deepest on the brake setting from manifacturer I appreciate Sam the way you ask questions, unstead of judging and giving comment that is not needed. regards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JaapSuter 0 #10 August 17, 2006 QuoteAfter opening the jumper NEVER release the break. Why he never released the break, only he can answer that question. We asked him but he does not remember. Don't you think this may have something to do with it? QuoteWhat height? 420 at exit point... The jumpers appeared to be quite high. Edited to clarify with a link... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites XDV 0 #11 August 17, 2006 Yes because he descent verticaly until he strike the structure ( where the structure meet the vertical line of the exit point) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 980 0 #12 August 18, 2006 QuoteI appreciate Sam the way you ask questions, unstead of judging and giving comment that is not needed. Thanks. I’m just trying to learn from this, like I try to learn from every other incident I hear about. Keep in mind that observations are subjective (even by experienced eye-witnesses) and trying to determine the root cause of an incident based on anything but really clear video or stills is difficult at best. QuoteThe other one have 15 jumps. I know you did a FJC, what about the other two jumpers? Do all 3 jumpers have mentors? If so, where were they? If not, how does it seem like a good idea for two low experience jumpers to take a total beginner out on a jump? One of my friends who have jumped this object said it is suitable for beginners, so I am not questioning the choice of object, but the lack of experienced jumpers on a load with a beginner. QuoteThis is a more base on discution and we give him the best of what we knew. Do you think a more experienced jumper would have been able to give more information? Possibly some that would even have prevented this incident? My friend who has jumped this said that you could jump the opposite side and fly around the tower to the landing area. Do you think this would have been a good option? QuoteI mean the body was perfect and only the push could be stronger On low objects that are underhung (even if not directly at the exit) a good push on exit is paramount to your safety. Quote420 at exit point and 5 to 6 secondes between opening and strike. Exit: 420 ft Vertical height to impact (with object) from exit: 345 ft (420 – 75) You said a 1 second delay handheld, by a jumper with an exit weight of around 140 lb (125 + 15 for gear) under a Blackjack 220. Brakes were never unstowed. That is too short a canopy ride for that altitude, delay and gear/wingloading. Especially if opening into a headwind (faster opening). What size pilotchute was he using? Was his pitch good? Did he have a pilotchute hesitation? Did his deployment look normal? All this is assuming he is packed slider down/off, of course. QuoteBoth other 2 talk about the importance of the exit, the canopy control ( the whole process..) This is good. How did he react to this talk? Was he taking it in or was he overloaded already? How nervous was he? Did anyone jump before him and if so, what was the order of the jumpers? QuoteNo exept felling on our face I can tell wind strength and direction pretty good by feeling it on my face, facing with the direction of wind and using my ears (balance the sound and turn your head side-to-side to find the direction) works even better. This took many jumps though. I also use the ‘spit drift indicator’ very often. I still frequently throw a wind drift indicator (made from a specially folded and knotted napkin) to make sure. It is a very simple and basic technique that should be used on every jump in the beginning of a jumper’s career. Placement of this WDI into the wind is important too, it is pretty easy to get it in the object’s burble (on A’s too) and that will totally skew your idea of what the winds are doing. Quoteyes and it is stipulate in the post, but it was looking insignifiant I believe this is where having a more experienced jumper to guide would have resulted in a different evaluation of the wind conditions. QuoteBlackJAck 220 the guy is 125 not geared, and the deepest on the brake setting from manifacturer With this configuration he should have some forward speed on opening and in deep brakes. Certainly enough that if he was just holding into the wind, the wind was not insignificant. How much chance do you think any jumper would have had of turning a 180 around in those conditions? What are the things that you have learned from this incident? So many questions, I hope you have the time and patience to answer them. Cya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites XDV 0 #13 August 18, 2006 QuoteThanks. I’m just trying to learn from this, like I try to learn from every other incident I hear about. Keep in mind that observations are subjective (even by experienced eye-witnesses) and trying to determine the root cause of an incident based on anything but really clear video or stills is difficult at best. Some poeple should read this ... you have a very good point. I know you did a FJC, what about the other two jumpers? One yes they other no because he cannot go accross the border for now Do all 3 jumpers have mentors? No If so, where were they? There is not a lot of experience jumpers around Mtl, I had some advice from 2 nice jumpers but they are not all the time available (distance, schedule) If not, how does it seem like a good idea for two low experience jumpers to take a total beginner out on a jump? I think it was not a good idea to bring somebody there and we learn the hard way. This is our friend that is now injured and we regret it deeply. Do you think a more experienced jumper would have been able to give more information? Nobody have finished to learn something, and I thing a more experience jumper had been able to add great things. (sorry for my english) Possibly some that would even have prevented this incident? I don't really understand this one, but I learn even if a wind look insignifiant it could be very dangerous. QuoteMy friend who has jumped this said that you could jump the opposite side and fly around the tower to the landing area. Do you think this would have been a good option? I do not know if it possible, that is long ride but probably able, but this will be short. QuoteI mean the body was perfect and only the push could be stronger On low objects that are underhung (even if not directly at the exit) a good push on exit is paramount to your safety. D'ont understand it clearly but if you mean how low stuff hung under exit. isolators hung for 10 to 20 feet Quote420 at exit point and 5 to 6 secondes between opening and strike. Exit: 420 ft Vertical height to impact (with object) from exit: 345 ft (420 – 75) You said a 1 second delay handheld, by a jumper with an exit weight of around 140 lb (125 + 15 for gear) under a Blackjack 220. Brakes were never unstowed. That is too short a canopy ride for that altitude, delay and gear/wingloading. Especially if opening into a headwind (faster opening). What size pilotchute was he using? 46 Was his pitch good? good Did he have a pilotchute hesitation? looks OK Did his deployment look normal? normal on heading All this is assuming he is packed slider down/off, of course. Off course it was slider down QuoteBoth other 2 talk about the importance of the exit, the canopy control ( the whole process..) This is good. How did he react to this talk? very responsive and asking if what he understand was right. Was he taking it in or was he overloaded already? we talked about the whole process lot of time and not only that day How nervous was he? not at all Did anyone jump before him and if so, what was the order of the jumpers? we let him go first because we olding him and helping, after we had go on the rail and the one who is ready first tell the other, "OK I go" QuoteI believe this is where having a more experienced jumper to guide would have resulted in a different evaluation of the wind conditions. totally agree with you How much chance do you think any jumper would have had of turning a 180 around in those conditions? think they had go.... but for sure they had told less experience this is not good good and probably going down with them. What are the things that you have learned from this incident? Lots......... for starting, will refer to a guy with over 500 jumps or a FJC, even insignifiant, the wind can cause lots of problem specialy for starting and more. QuoteSo many questions, I hope you have the time and patience to answer them. When asked like you did this is a plaisure to give you all the info you want. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 0
980 0 #8 August 17, 2006 Quote1- I was not leading anyone, we were a group of 3 jumpers and no one leading more then others. 2- My BASE resume is 4 months with 30 jumps, 5 on that site So since we know that one of the other two jumpers had 2 jumps, this begs the question: How many jumps did the 3rd person have? A person with 2 jumps requires some ‘leading’ and people jumping with them should be aware of this. Quote3- this is not a hardcore tower as describe by other, this tower are jumped by the arms, that mean you are about 25 feet from the structure went you exit the tower and the parallel meet point is around 75 feet of the ground, the height of were our friend touch it. How high is the exit from the ground? Quote7- This is a very simple story; the exit was good with only a small impulsion, opening on heading after hand held jump with less then a second of delay. After opening the jumper NEVER release the break…. And meet the tower at around 75 feet were he get stuck after a vertical descent. How is an exit with only a little push good? Again, what height is the tower? How long from opening to object strike? (time) Quote8- Why he never release the break … only him can answer that question, we asked him but he does not remember. He had been brief several time about the whole jump process. He knew he had to grab the toggles but he never did Who briefed him? QuoteWind condition was 0 at ground level, at 420 feet I will explain in term of spit test, to be more precise, I remember to spit lots of time to check the wind because of proximity of the water we do not want wind. It was a face wind but very little, on spit test it curved about 1 feet for 100 feet this is easier then giving a number that is not what it was. I have talked with other BASE jumpers who knows this place and tower jump, and what we think at first as going backward is a optical effect of the structure growing up at the base. Did you use any other way than the spit test to gauge the winds? It really sounds as if you jumped into a headwind. What kind of canopy was the injured jumper using? What is his wingloading? How deep are his brake settings? QuoteIf anybody wants more detail or fact, feel free to email me with your phone number, that will be a pleasure the explain the entire story to minimize the propagation of false information. I would rather have you answer the questions I posted here, because I know other people reading this would like to know too and more people can learn from this incident this way. thanks Sam Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XDV 0 #9 August 17, 2006 QuoteSo since we know that one of the other two jumpers had 2 jumps, this begs the question: How many jumps did the 3rd person have? The other one have 15 jumps QuoteA person with 2 jumps requires some ‘leading’ and people jumping with them should be aware of this. This is a more base on discution and we give him the best of what we knew. QuoteHow high is the exit from the ground? exit point is at 420 feet with a clearing of around 25 from the structure. QuoteHow is an exit with only a little push good? I mean the body was perfect and only the push could be stronger QuoteAgain, what height is the tower? How long from opening to object strike? (time) 420 at exit point and 5 to 6 secondes between opening and strike. Quote Who briefed him? Both other 2 talk about the importance of the exit, the canopy control ( the whole process..) QuoteDid you use any other way than the spit test to gauge the winds? No exept felling on our face QuoteIt really sounds as if you jumped into a headwind. yes and it is stipulate in the post, but it was looking insignifiant QuoteWhat kind of canopy was the injured jumper using? What is his wingloading? How deep are his brake settings? BlackJAck 220 the guy is 125 not geared, and the deepest on the brake setting from manifacturer I appreciate Sam the way you ask questions, unstead of judging and giving comment that is not needed. regards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JaapSuter 0 #10 August 17, 2006 QuoteAfter opening the jumper NEVER release the break. Why he never released the break, only he can answer that question. We asked him but he does not remember. Don't you think this may have something to do with it? QuoteWhat height? 420 at exit point... The jumpers appeared to be quite high. Edited to clarify with a link... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XDV 0 #11 August 17, 2006 Yes because he descent verticaly until he strike the structure ( where the structure meet the vertical line of the exit point) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
980 0 #12 August 18, 2006 QuoteI appreciate Sam the way you ask questions, unstead of judging and giving comment that is not needed. Thanks. I’m just trying to learn from this, like I try to learn from every other incident I hear about. Keep in mind that observations are subjective (even by experienced eye-witnesses) and trying to determine the root cause of an incident based on anything but really clear video or stills is difficult at best. QuoteThe other one have 15 jumps. I know you did a FJC, what about the other two jumpers? Do all 3 jumpers have mentors? If so, where were they? If not, how does it seem like a good idea for two low experience jumpers to take a total beginner out on a jump? One of my friends who have jumped this object said it is suitable for beginners, so I am not questioning the choice of object, but the lack of experienced jumpers on a load with a beginner. QuoteThis is a more base on discution and we give him the best of what we knew. Do you think a more experienced jumper would have been able to give more information? Possibly some that would even have prevented this incident? My friend who has jumped this said that you could jump the opposite side and fly around the tower to the landing area. Do you think this would have been a good option? QuoteI mean the body was perfect and only the push could be stronger On low objects that are underhung (even if not directly at the exit) a good push on exit is paramount to your safety. Quote420 at exit point and 5 to 6 secondes between opening and strike. Exit: 420 ft Vertical height to impact (with object) from exit: 345 ft (420 – 75) You said a 1 second delay handheld, by a jumper with an exit weight of around 140 lb (125 + 15 for gear) under a Blackjack 220. Brakes were never unstowed. That is too short a canopy ride for that altitude, delay and gear/wingloading. Especially if opening into a headwind (faster opening). What size pilotchute was he using? Was his pitch good? Did he have a pilotchute hesitation? Did his deployment look normal? All this is assuming he is packed slider down/off, of course. QuoteBoth other 2 talk about the importance of the exit, the canopy control ( the whole process..) This is good. How did he react to this talk? Was he taking it in or was he overloaded already? How nervous was he? Did anyone jump before him and if so, what was the order of the jumpers? QuoteNo exept felling on our face I can tell wind strength and direction pretty good by feeling it on my face, facing with the direction of wind and using my ears (balance the sound and turn your head side-to-side to find the direction) works even better. This took many jumps though. I also use the ‘spit drift indicator’ very often. I still frequently throw a wind drift indicator (made from a specially folded and knotted napkin) to make sure. It is a very simple and basic technique that should be used on every jump in the beginning of a jumper’s career. Placement of this WDI into the wind is important too, it is pretty easy to get it in the object’s burble (on A’s too) and that will totally skew your idea of what the winds are doing. Quoteyes and it is stipulate in the post, but it was looking insignifiant I believe this is where having a more experienced jumper to guide would have resulted in a different evaluation of the wind conditions. QuoteBlackJAck 220 the guy is 125 not geared, and the deepest on the brake setting from manifacturer With this configuration he should have some forward speed on opening and in deep brakes. Certainly enough that if he was just holding into the wind, the wind was not insignificant. How much chance do you think any jumper would have had of turning a 180 around in those conditions? What are the things that you have learned from this incident? So many questions, I hope you have the time and patience to answer them. Cya Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
XDV 0 #13 August 18, 2006 QuoteThanks. I’m just trying to learn from this, like I try to learn from every other incident I hear about. Keep in mind that observations are subjective (even by experienced eye-witnesses) and trying to determine the root cause of an incident based on anything but really clear video or stills is difficult at best. Some poeple should read this ... you have a very good point. I know you did a FJC, what about the other two jumpers? One yes they other no because he cannot go accross the border for now Do all 3 jumpers have mentors? No If so, where were they? There is not a lot of experience jumpers around Mtl, I had some advice from 2 nice jumpers but they are not all the time available (distance, schedule) If not, how does it seem like a good idea for two low experience jumpers to take a total beginner out on a jump? I think it was not a good idea to bring somebody there and we learn the hard way. This is our friend that is now injured and we regret it deeply. Do you think a more experienced jumper would have been able to give more information? Nobody have finished to learn something, and I thing a more experience jumper had been able to add great things. (sorry for my english) Possibly some that would even have prevented this incident? I don't really understand this one, but I learn even if a wind look insignifiant it could be very dangerous. QuoteMy friend who has jumped this said that you could jump the opposite side and fly around the tower to the landing area. Do you think this would have been a good option? I do not know if it possible, that is long ride but probably able, but this will be short. QuoteI mean the body was perfect and only the push could be stronger On low objects that are underhung (even if not directly at the exit) a good push on exit is paramount to your safety. D'ont understand it clearly but if you mean how low stuff hung under exit. isolators hung for 10 to 20 feet Quote420 at exit point and 5 to 6 secondes between opening and strike. Exit: 420 ft Vertical height to impact (with object) from exit: 345 ft (420 – 75) You said a 1 second delay handheld, by a jumper with an exit weight of around 140 lb (125 + 15 for gear) under a Blackjack 220. Brakes were never unstowed. That is too short a canopy ride for that altitude, delay and gear/wingloading. Especially if opening into a headwind (faster opening). What size pilotchute was he using? 46 Was his pitch good? good Did he have a pilotchute hesitation? looks OK Did his deployment look normal? normal on heading All this is assuming he is packed slider down/off, of course. Off course it was slider down QuoteBoth other 2 talk about the importance of the exit, the canopy control ( the whole process..) This is good. How did he react to this talk? very responsive and asking if what he understand was right. Was he taking it in or was he overloaded already? we talked about the whole process lot of time and not only that day How nervous was he? not at all Did anyone jump before him and if so, what was the order of the jumpers? we let him go first because we olding him and helping, after we had go on the rail and the one who is ready first tell the other, "OK I go" QuoteI believe this is where having a more experienced jumper to guide would have resulted in a different evaluation of the wind conditions. totally agree with you How much chance do you think any jumper would have had of turning a 180 around in those conditions? think they had go.... but for sure they had told less experience this is not good good and probably going down with them. What are the things that you have learned from this incident? Lots......... for starting, will refer to a guy with over 500 jumps or a FJC, even insignifiant, the wind can cause lots of problem specialy for starting and more. QuoteSo many questions, I hope you have the time and patience to answer them. When asked like you did this is a plaisure to give you all the info you want. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
