sinker 0 #1 January 4, 2003 is there anywhere in the US where you can make legal antennae jumps? You don't have to name places... -the artist formerly known as sinker Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #2 January 4, 2003 whoops... another question... is it legal to jump on private property w/ the owner's permission? -the artist formerly known as sinker Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #3 January 4, 2003 Quoteis it legal to jump on private property w/ the owner's permission? If the owner owns both the land and the antenna, it would be legal. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #4 January 4, 2003 what liability issues would the owner of the land and antennae need to arrange? Would signing a waiver suffice or would the owner need to procure some sort of insurance? -the artist formerly known as sinker Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #5 January 4, 2003 If the rules are near our rules(DK)then its much like if you want a premission to make a demo skydive. Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #6 January 4, 2003 Quote is it legal to jump on private property w/ the owner's permission? If you get both the object`s owner,the place you will land,and you dont disturp the normal public,then yesor do like in Melaysia,gat the promisions,and let the police,help to keep people on distance... Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #7 January 4, 2003 But they're not; in the US you have to take in to account all kinds of liability issues. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #8 January 4, 2003 That migth just why there aint more places to jump legal in US... Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base704 0 #9 January 4, 2003 You got it. Over here everybody is so sue happy that we can no longer have any fun... It's time for some accountability in this country. It's perfectly legal to throw yourself off of many objects all over the world.The U.S. has few legal sites. Go figure... Wait...Isn't it the U.S. that was nicknamed "The land of the free"?You can get a lot more done with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #10 January 4, 2003 Quote Isn't it the U.S. that was nicknamed "The land of the free"? That what US want the world to belive(personal thourgth),but i dont think so.I belive that US are so free that it tigth itself up.Okay this belong other place. But for sure it could be fun/nice to find out what it takes,to jump legal in US.As Brigde day.. Also,what happend in different places in US if you get court(if you did a elegal jump). In DK i would get a ticket for traspasing,that will cost me less than 100$But have Heard that some places they even take the gear aswell or put you in jail.. Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #11 January 4, 2003 so the question becomes, wouldn't the liability issue be much the same as for a standard drop zone (that is, if the owner of the antenna/land wanted to charge for jumps)? Like, sign this waiver saying you won't sue the shit out of me if you kill yourself, etc. etc. -the artist formerly known as sinker Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #12 January 4, 2003 I guess so. Mind you, all the knowledge I have on the american legal system comes from watching the telly. It seems to me that you can sue for just about anything you feel like in the US. What I've read about waivers in general here on the forums, a badly worded waiver can supposedly even harm the (in this case) land owner in case of a law suit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #13 January 4, 2003 Thanks Erno. Anyone in the US have knowledge of/experience with the legal waiver thing at DZs? Any speculation about how that would apply to a lang/antenna owner who permits base jumps from his property? -the artist formerly known as sinker Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #14 January 4, 2003 It is perfectly legal to jump off of anything that you own or anything that you can get an owner's permission to jump. The only charge a jumper typically gets hit with is trespassing or the random public endangerment. As far as legal A's, I've heard of a few but since there are an abundence of As all over the place not many folks go to the trouble of getting permission. Plus As are nearly always out in the sticks so the bust factor tends to be lower than say a B or high traffic S. Tree Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #15 January 4, 2003 I'd like to talk to you via email if you'd entertain it. Let me know... sinker -the artist formerly known as sinker Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dd0g 0 #16 January 5, 2003 QuoteThanks Erno. Anyone in the US have knowledge of/experience with the legal waiver thing at DZs? Any speculation about how that would apply to a lang/antenna owner who permits base jumps from his property? The problem (in my hands-on experience) with the US legal system today is twofold. One, even if you sign a wavier that says in big letters I WILL NOT SUE YOU IF I DIE, and you die, your heirs can sue anyway. Sure, a judge might throw out the suit on summary judgment (which is, nowadays, extremely rare even in clearcut cases - a smart lawyer will always add a few points of factual dispute and no summary judgment), but far more likely is that it will go to trial. Plan on at least $100,000 to mount a defense at a civil jury trial. This is even if you have a signed, notarized, legal wavier. Our legal system is so out of control that signed contracts are often ignored and it turns into a big pissing match at trial. Two, jury trials are a total crapshoot in the US. You MIGHT get a jury that is stable, intelligent, and fair - but more likely you'll get a group of people raised on Oprah and Jerry Springer. Put eleven of them together, and groupthink runs rampant. Basically, it turns into a popularity contest - juries are SUPPOSED to follow the law, but they can pretty much do what they want. Are you a cute white chick? Poor, but not too poor? Jury will love you, cha-ching! Not so cute? Not so poor? Too poor? Not white? Good luck, mate, as you'll need it. The foundation of the US legal system is sound. However, over the centuries the lawyers have tweaked it to their enormous benefit - lawyers love lawsuits, and in the USA lawyers write the laws that govern lawsuits. Guess what? Lawsuits are so easy to file, and so expensive to defend against, that everyone is hiding in bunkers just hoping some trigger-happy plaintiff lawyer isn't going to target them for an easy payday. This is why property owners in the USA don't allow legal access. Even with a perfect liability wavier, they could get sued, spend a few hundred grand defending the suit. Even if they win, they don't get their legal fees back - doesn't work that way in the USA. If they get a jury who decides they aren't so cute, they could get screwed even if they did nothing wrong. If you owned a building in the USA, would you put your family's entire fiancial future at risk to allow someone to jump off it? Only if you knew that person and trusted them - and their family - quite well, I'd think. Thus, us BASE folks in the USA get really good at getting on objects, getting off them, not harming anyone, and never leaving so much as a footprint behind. Not what we want to do, but what choice do we have in our "land of the free?" Peace from Malaysia, D-d0g [email protected] www.wrinko.com+~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #17 January 5, 2003 Thanks for the post DdOg. More for me to chew on. My thing is though, drop zones do this all the time and more than a few actually are very successful financially. But, I'm with you on the legal shit. The justice system in the US, while being second to none as it was originally intended, has turned into a circus. -the artist formerly known as sinker Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #18 January 5, 2003 [QuoteThis is why property owners in the USA don't allow legal access. Even with a perfect liability wavier, they could get sued, spend a few hundred grand defending the suit. Even if they win, they don't get their legal fees back - doesn't work that way in the USA. If they get a jury who decides they aren't so cute, they could get screwed even if they did nothing wrong. States have their own laws protecting Land owners from liability. It is commonly reffered to as the recreational land use act (sec 895.52 of Wis. State Statues). While most states have some protection, the extent of it can vary greatly from state to state. Wisconsin Law protects above and beyond what some other states offer for immunity from liability. As an example; in some states the courts have held that only owners of unimproved land are protected from liability. Wisconsin is also one of the only states which does not require the land owner to warn of a known hazardous conditions and will also allow land owner to receive some payment for use of the property. These laws do a very good job at preventing frivolous lawsuits in some states. In some states; such as Maine, there is a section which awards direct legal costs to landowners found not liable under the statute. I have seen this statute prevent and drop lawsuits without the use of a defense laywer. QuotePlan on at least $100,000 to mount a defense at a civil jury trial. This is even if you have a signed, notarized, legal wavier. Our legal system is so out of control that signed contracts are often ignored and it turns into a big pissing match at trial. For what? This is a very vague statement. What if I am being sued in Wisconsin for something that I was protected from liability under the State Statues . Actually, there is a great chance that it would never see trial as the defendent could be awarded Summary Judgment How much do you think the plantiff would be willing to spend on attorney fees knowing the defense's arguement (assuming the lawyer is not working on a contingency basis) Or how much time and resources would a contigency lawyer put into a case after presented with the history of this law being applied favorably toward the land owner. This is why I have a file on this law including history. It may be intersting to some to read how recreational activity is defined under this law(Wis. S895.525(2). so I have included it: 'In this section, "recreational activity" means any activity undertaken for the purpose of exercise, relaxation or pleasure, including practice or instruction in any such activity. "Recreational activity" includes, but is not limited to, hunting, fishing, trapping, camping, bowling, billiards, picnicking, exploring caves, nature study, dancing, bicycling, horseback riding, horseshoe-pitching, bird-watching, motorcycling, operating an all-terrain vehicle, ballooning, curling, throwing darts, hang gliding, hiking, tobogganing, sledding, sleigh riding, snowmobiling, skiing, skating, participation in water sports, weight and fitness training, sight-seeing, rock-climbing, cutting or removing wood, climbing observation towers, animal training, harvesting the products of nature, sport shooting and any other sport, game or educational activity.' Just my .02 cents Josh That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #19 January 7, 2003 Sinker, You can e-mail me at [email protected]. I tried your e-mail but it bounced. Cya, Tree Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
