Skydog73

Well seems we are still going round on this at our place, I just got my SIM and IRM back, and I gave it a glance last night, I didn't see where it says after solo status and coaching begins the pull sign is an absolute no-no, I just found what I already knew, and that is we should wave them off, and/or we should be pulling by 3500' to show them that they should be doing the same, and we should not be physically touching them, idk,,,, but I will try and look more tonight, one guy still insists it is in the coach responsibilities list, which he is going to try and find too......, like I said regardless if I ever see someone who might be ready to pass out, throw up and isn't doing what they are suppose to, or I see a bridal flapping behind them, I will do what I feel is best. I flat out tell students at this stage I should not be telling you to pull, i review the signals, and then add in that if I roll my arm extended in a direction that means turn and track and deploy, and if you ever see me pull, you should be pulling as well. Like I said I will abide by the rules either way, just want everyone doing the same thing here on a day to day basis and not causing confusion, what we do in freak situations is a judgement call usually anyway, but this has given me a few new scenarios to think about, so either way it has been helpful!!!!

You don't need to point at your alti. Tap it with all four fingers or the palm of your hand. I also like putting my alti in my face until the student gets the hint. Both work. You don't need to point down with one finger to indicate a bad spot. You can put two fingers to your eyeballs then wave both of those fingers to the place you want them to look. They understand, "look over there". Both of these sign language clues seem to work with many students with zero training because they just make sense. If you want someone to track or go some direction, point with all four fingers stuck out and thumb at the palm of your hand. Wave in the direction you want them to go starting with elbow bent, fingers to the sky eventually arm extended the direction you want them to go. This one makes so much sense most dogs understand it when you want to play fetch, so humans should too. Don Yarling taught me this when I was getting my coach rating. We were in the middle of an eval, and he said something. I gestured "good point", on the ground, and my hand resembled a "pull" signal. He yelled, "arch, reach, throw!" loud enough everyone within a mile could hear. Then said to me, "why would you tell me to pull on the ground?" It was his dramatic show that taught me a lesson such that I remember this to this day. Our coach/AFF E does the same drill, anytime anyone points he makes us all yell the same thing. And during an AFF rating jump a friend was on, he tapped his finger on the AFF E's alti, on the ground the examiner said "hey why did you give me the pull sign at 9000', he said next time tap all 4 fingers on the alti, if your going to pratice a sign, pratice it correctly was his point. Seems most of us agree on this topic, and I thank you for your input.

Thanks all, I hope a Coach IE chimes in too, ( i have a call into mine, he is out of the country for a week) and I agree with all of you. The arm wave I refer to is less of a wave, and more of an open palm arm pointing as if to say "go that way and deploy. I believe the minimum altitude is 3500' but I could be wrong on that (just ordered a 2nd set of IRM & SIM last night to leave one at the office and one at the DZ), I use 4500' for these jumps as this seems to put the student below the tandems and AFF level 1-8 people but above the usual fun jumpers. I personally like to pull at 4000' foot anyway. I do explain to a student that if they see me track away and pull they should be doing the same, that either something is up, or they are not altitude aware and either way if I am pulling they should follow suit, and I agree if they are far away that would be the better sign, I was mostly thinking of times like a horse shoe, or if they looked like they might pass out, something below us, but above the hard deck etc. trust me as I said I like to be deployed at 4000' but will go to 3500' if I have to, but by 3000' I am doing what I need to do, I fully plan on heading home each night. Thanks again and I look forward to more responces on what you would do especially form a coach IE. As for never getting on the same page, well to a point I agree, but we have started having bi monthly instructor meetings and I must say this has stopped alot of confusion, and helped stream line our exits, gear checks, and cleaned up the hand signals differences, gets rid of the he said she said stuff, and I would like to discuss this one at the next meeting. I highly recommend this to any DZ not having them already, it is really amazing what 1 hour on a saturday night clears up.

Hello all, New here, and I have a question, on a load a few weeks back I heard a coach (with no AFF rating yet) reviewing hand signals with a student who had successfully passed their self supervised level last year but had yet earned their A, he showed that student the pull sign to make sure they knew what it meant, however the following week I heard another coach (also with no AFF rating) tell their student to forget the single finger out pull sign, that it no longer exists, and was showing them the arm wave we use to signal they should turn, track away, and deploy, they mentioned that even if they would do this arm roll (hope I am explaining this correctly, the arm wave I am reffering to is kind of like what a show case girl on the price is right would do introducing a prize) with one finger out instead of of an open hand as I was taught this doesn't mean pull, it means turn away and track. I said so you tell them the pull sign no longer means anything? they said yes, as a coach we are not allowed to use that signal and would be in violation of the USPA rules.... I believe the IRM states that we are not to assit in deployment, which I take as I am not to physically touch the students pilot chute, and if they do not pull by 3500' then I am to turn, track and deploy, but I do not remember it saying we can not use the pull sign if we believe it would save a life? Now at this point I believe we shouldn't need to use it, the student should be very altitude aware, but what if they are focused on a manuver and looking to us for approval on their last manuver and below I spot something and I believe the best action to save their life is to pull, such as someone tracking below us, or pre mature deployment below, notice their pilot chute working it's way out, their altimeter falls off, etc. I feel I would be better off telling them to pull instead of worrying about confusing them trying to point out the problem. My questions are this, first does it state somewhere that after self supervised status we can not use the pull sign for emergencies? Also if it does say that somewhere, and that situation happened to arise, would you do it anyway? Ultimately my goal is to get us all on the same page here so as student move around we avoid confusion, I personally know that either way if I saw a plane below me and a student, I wouldn't want to risk precious time trying to get him/her to understand what I am trying to show them, or risk giving them the track away and deploy movement and risk them tracking further into danger if I felt deploying was the safest bet, and although them seeing me deploy should tell them something is up and they need to deploy, I think a clear pull sign followed by my action of deploying would be more precise. Hopefully I never need to do this, but like I said I want to get rid of which ever way is wrong, even if by cahnce I disagree. Thanks for reading, I left my SIM and IRM at a friends house last weekend, and won't be back there for a week, but was also curious on what people thought about these 2 different thought processes regardless of what the IRM actually states.

Yeah a hop n pop prior to solo status would be very problematic, and I think some one already mentioned probably a legal nightmare. I know pilots and packers don't like the regular static line jumps, but you could probably do it that way and focus on canopy drills, which to me are more important then free fall drills. just my 2 cents.

The coach rating is as much about how to teach as it is how to fly with low time jumpers, if not more. Pretending that it's not because you've seen some people doing what you think is a bad job or approaching it in a way that you don't like shows just as much disrespect to the rating and to those who do have a coach ratings and do care about teaching people. I applaud you for wanting to help newer jumpers but go get a coach rating if you want to jump with pre-A license holders, you *will* learn something. Fair enough, you have given me a new train of thought. Thanks. Hey if you wanna help but don't want a rating, then be one of the guys who grab the fresh A license people once in awhile and starts a beginner RW group, it gives a fresh fish a place to start their career from, we lose alot of up jumpers because they feel left out, or people whose skills never progress much because they have no experienced people to pratice with. I know a few guys who do this and probably make more in sandwhiches and beer then a coach makes anyway. If your one of these guys I applaud you!!!!! I have done a few but we have really been busy the last 2 years and my time is limited, but I still have 1 or 2 I try and get with, and seeing them smile makes it all worth it. The USPA states we are self policing, we should also try and be self encouraging after the A stamp is applied.