apoil

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That would suck in a 160 mph head down...

In a wind tunnel that doesn't mean you will immediately plummet towards the net at 160mph. When the wind stops, your speed is ZERO relative to the earth and you will start to accelerate from there. It will be like falling from wherever you are onto the springy net. The only difference is the body position.
Hitting the net head first from 10-15 feet up carries a significant risk of serious injury but it isn't inevitable. A skilled flyer should be able to tuck up and land on their back.

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The only distance that counts is the distance with respect to the air at opening altitude, and you can't see that!

Then why does the speed of the uppers matter?

Sounds to me like separation is based only on the planes airspeed indicator, and separation sould be the same regardless of the direction of jump run.

This has plagued me for a while.. intuition has told me that that distance covered over the ground shouldn't matter because separation needs to be achieved in the airmass. But using the ground as a reference IS what is taught - and ground speed is used to determine separation.

In the case of the balloon
Untethered: airspeed = 0. No separation achieved.
Tethered: airspeed = windspeed. Separation achieved.

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But in all 3 cases, they waste 5-10 seconds, and that's enough (usually) to give them safe separation.

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I knew there had to be a reason so many think it works

So, ironically, waiting for a 45degree angle doesn't work but TELLING someone to wait until there's a 45 degree angle may well guarantee you the proper separation. The rest of the load gets hosed, but at least no one comes through your canopy.

It may even be more effective to tell them that than to tell them to wait 10 seconds. Nearly everyone counts seconds way too fast on jump run.

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Okay, I am there. Bringing my tent and sleeping bag. Bonnie said I can take a quick shower in her RV. So I am wonderin, am I gonna be okay in a tent? Or am I gonna freeeze to death? I could get a room but don't really have the money for that.....but if it's gonna be really cold...so what's it like?

It's really cold. So cold that really the only way to survive is to share your sleeping bag with a friend. Byron folks are typically more than happy to do this - understandable since it's a matter of life and death.

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it was obviously a red light, he needed to stop at the intersection!

nice pic!

It is a nice pic, I hope he had some shoes left after sliding on pavement.

Notice how inflated his 'collapsed' slider is?
This is why I prefer the stowing the slider behind my head with one of those plastic ball and bungee things. Of course RDS is optimal, but it's a bit more complicated for every day jumping.

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Umm, doesn't do much for bridle protection, but you do know that its "legal" to pack a Dolphin with both the top and bottom reserve flaps over the pilot chute/cap, like a Javelin, rather then just the top flap over the pilot chute/cap... makes it more freefly friendly.

No it doesn't. The freefly unfriendliness of the dolphin has nothing to do with the way the reserve flaps are closed. It has to do with the riser/bridle protection and the tightness of the BOC. And I'm not disagreeing with the earlier post saying it's possible to make one ff friendly.

No one is having premature reserve deployments as a result of the flap configuration. I have personally seen and filmed a dolphin premature main deployment from a sit fly.

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Just last weekend, myself and a buddy of mine went down to Skydive Oregon to participate in setting the Oregon State HD record. We had 9 flyers to use, so that is what the unofficial record is now! We started with a 4 way base, added a stinger at each grip on the base and the ninth docked on one of the stingers. Not too big or demanding, but for the rainy Pacific Northwest, we did pretty damn good in just 3 attempts, slot specific. We plan on making bigger attempts maybe later this summer. Thanks to Wyat Drews for organizing this. Now all I want to do is big ways, and go to a camp of some kind. It seems that all the camps down in Perris have cuts to them. The last thing I want to do is do to a camp and get cut. Anyone know of a good camp to attend?

People got cut on the record itself, but I attended a couple of big way camps at Perris and no one got cut.

If a big way "camp" is cutting people then it's not really being organized properly. People can be arranged in such a way that everyone is challenged and improves their skills whether or not the planned formation actually completes. If the goal is building a specific formation, then you may have to cut people in order to achieve the goal - but that's no longer a "camp". The only people who should be cut are people who aren't capable of flying safely in a large group and that's about discipline and break-off.

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Thanks for your scientific method.

ROFL - because the scientific method is how freefly suitability is being measured here?! Give me a break. This is more "I have one and world champ x/y/z has one so it must be the best!!"

I'll go more slowly - when someone says I've seen more javelins do x than any other rig, it makes a difference that in all likelihood he's seen more javelins PERIOD than any other rig.

If I say, I've seen more malfunctions on Javelins than any other rig does it mean Javelins are more prone to malfunctions? Not without more information.

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I have nothing against Javelin, the first rig i used a lot was a javelin, and i find them really comfortable but i would rather they sorted out the main flap first, then it will be right at the top of my list.

My last Jav stayed closed for 1800 jumps. Then I changed mains to a velocity with a bigger pack volume in the same container and it didn't fit exactly right. Due to wear on the stiff tab and an improperly sized main it started opening. I had a rigger put a new tab in and now it is perfectly secure.

I've seen the main flap open on other rigs. I mentioned Wings, Mirage and Vector because they all use a similar design to protect the main pin.

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Last time i jumped with someone who had this happen was a very well known freeflyer with probably more than 10 times as many jumps as me, and he said it just happens. I wasn't going to be the one to tell him he should be on a different size canopy!

"It just happens". That sounds more like "I don't know why it happens and I can't be bothered to do anything about it right now"

It doesn't happen to all Javs, particularly if the main is the proper size for the container. Lots of highly experienced jumpers end up changing main sizes and not wanting to invest in a new rig.
It can be fixed, but maybe not all riggers are up to the task, and not all jumpers are up to the expense for something that is ultimately more of an inconvenience than a safety issue.

I might not buy a brand new Javelin if I were shopping for one today, but it would still be a leading candidate.

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That would be the ned of the friendship.

I never liked Ned that much anyway.

Seriously, if my friends had a problem being told they were full of shit they would have stopped being my friend a long time ago. And yes, I still have a few.

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But i have seen more main flaps open on Javelins than any other rig. Apparently they are fixing that this year and a couple of other things but to me they are still playing catch up at the moment.

There are more javelins in the market than any other rig.

Thanks for your scientific method.

If the canopy is the proper size for the container and the closing loop is the right length and the gear was properly broken in, this doesn't happen.

I've seen it happen on Vector, Wings and Mirage rigs as well. Every rig has its pluses and minuses. But all are safe for freeflying.

Oddly, as annoying as it is, I've never heard of or seen a malfunction or fatality that resulted from the main pin cover being open.

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No, my question is: What are the things VERY experienced freeflyers have gleaned over the years as to what make a rig particularly freefly FRIENDLY or not? Clearly, good riser protection, PIN protection. But what else? Articulation?, flexibility?, rigidity? What else?

ok. At the risk of totally ignoring my own advice about irresponsibility:

smallness.

A small rig is less bulk to lug through a transition, and less aerodynamic drag all around. Better be able to fly the tiny main and the highly loaded reserve under all circumstances though.

In my case my canopy skills evolved at the same pace as my freeflying skills which is to say very slowly. For some that's not the case. Safety under canopy is top priority. But smaller kit is nice when you freefly.

My gear has always been cutom sized for me and articulated. The cut in laterals on new gear is also nice, although it makes less of a difference if the container is narrower than your back.

I also use the bungee between the leg straps. With hip rings that makes a huge difference for head up flying. Some swoopers don't like it though because it affects their ability to harness turn.

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Malcolm, check attached...

The pullout handle tucks into the bridle cover and the pilot chute goes into the pouch. Considerably more lean and probably less likely to get caught on something. But a pain in the ass to pack.

The Hacky, as it sounds like you know, just goes into the pouch.

Very irresponsible to call those "pullouts" They are all BOC with different style handles. I've never heard those referred to as "pullout handles" only as "freefly handles".

The "pullout system" has a similar style handle but the pilot chute is packed into the container closed with a straight pin.

Even with that all clarified there's no need to have a "freefly handle" or a "pullout system" in order to safely freefly. It comes down to individual preference.

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Thanks a bunch!!! That makes sense... I can't wait to try it eventually!! My second solo is day after tomorrow.

Where are you learning, and what is your progression?

Are you considering an AFF jump a "solo"?

Beause, if solo is "jump without instructors" in a progression other than static line or IAD, then you should have already been tought the technique and have demonstrated it.

If you are in the middle of your AFF progression, then don't worry, the technique is introduced before you are released in freefall, and is typically not needed until the final stages when which infolve deliberate instability and recovery. I personally teach it in the First Jump Course, just in case.

That said, I heartily endorse the numerous statements that you ask your instructor

A student trained by the collective wisdom of dropzone.com would be a horrifying sight.

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If I remember right the Talon bridal is about 15 feet long.

I don't know why so many folks are trying to marry components of their rig.

Maybe congress is right. Maybe gay marriage has opened the door to this kind of perversion.

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One more thing:

Do you think it makes it harder that the only time I try is when I've already lost people, so I'm looking down?

I mean, if I look straight out, I'll hit them.

How many "people"?

It doesn't sound like you are ready for freeflying in groups.

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Well, I think someone nailed it earlier - the air will try to blow my legs back up, just like it did when I was learning to sit - DON'T LET IT.

K.I.S.S.

Practice a little bit at a time. You are basically just practicing a stronger sit. Push your legs down until you start to lose stability. As soon as you feel that, tuck up, recenter and push back down into your SIT.

You are training yourself in having SIT be your recovery for stand (and everything else)

Not everyone can punch all the way into a stand right away. I sure couldn't.

So keep practicing that recovery. Each time, you will be able to push down a little bit further, and recover a little bit quicker. Eventually, your "recovery" will be so quick that it looks like a transition. And eventually you will be all the way in a stand and holding it.

The skills that you have developed along the way are essential for any group vertical flying as well as for eventually learning head down.

I've jumped with a lot of outstanding freeflyers.

Guano are quite possibly the best organizers when it comes to putting together safe fun skydives that reward and challenge every individual in the group.

If you are in the area, don't miss this opportunity.

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Jumps plus time in sport gives you experience.

I dont' consider someone that makes 1000 jumps in a year that experienced.

j

Time in sport does indeed count for something.

I consider 1000 jumps to be like a black belt in martial arts.
Any experienced practitioner of martial arts will tell you that that is when you are ready to BEGIN learning.

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I mean, to actually try to work out how to do, and decide to try and do it and then begin to practice it jump after jump. I'm just curious as to know how head down flight developed, and what the original reasoning was behind it. Was it Olav?

Thanks if anyone can help me out.

My understanding is that it was Olav.
Are you sure he didn't put you up to this?

Early hard core RW guys will at this point start talking about "no lift dives" and how they'd been doing it for years before Olav came along.

But that was about diving down to a formation. It wasn't about flying the body position. That is, controlled motion on all axes and the ability to STOP at a fixed point.

So, I'll give credit to Olav for pioneering the idea, but he certainly had help in the early days turning it into a discipline.

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Some potential problems:

1. Long 'closing pins' may cause PC-in-tow mals since they need a lot more slack in the bridle to clear the loop.

2. A damaged closing pin may cause a PC in tow. Since they're made of plastic and not stainless steel that's more likely.

3. A badly kinked closing pin may cause a PC in tow.

4. There are a few interesting ways to catch your bridle on the closing pin and lock it off, causing a PC in tow. Try it sometime with a flexible cable as a closing pin and a bridle. It can happen with a curved pin too but it's a lot harder to do.

5. The long pins WILL wear out your closing loop faster. Be careful that your "solution" doesn't end up causing the same problem you were trying to avoid.

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Go out and do a bunch of solos and get used to seeing the world upside down...it can be quite disorienting at first.

I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree with that.

Very few people will actually be head down on a solo, even when they think they are. While he might get used to an upside down picture, he will likely be tracking across the sky - hopefully not up or down the jump run.

What he will be doing is ingraining bad habits and forcing his eventual coach to chase him all around the sky just to fix it.

If you aren't going to do formal coaching, then get another friend who is a good solid sit flyer and practice doing transitions in front of him, never losing eye contact. If you get separation, immediately recover to your feet and get relative again. If your sit flying skills aren't up to that, then you aren't ready for head down.

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Thanks for posting your thoughts, everyone.

But I'm not sure that I'm willing to get close to any more jumpers. And I don't know that the sport is worth putting my family through the pain that would come if I die jumping.

What you are talking about now has nothing to do with skydiving. It has to do with dealing with loss.

Many people stop getting close to other people after getting their heart broken, or losing a loved one to disease.

There's the deeper question of what it really means to be alive which ties to why we jump in the first place. The route you are contemplating might reduce the chance of pain in the future, but it also cuts off something. And that something is part of what makes life worth living.

As to the pain you might put others through if you die, here's two things:

1) Don't fucking die skydiving. Seriously. Stay sharp and do everything you can to not let it happen. Learn from every incident and don't repeat the mistakes of others.

2) While it will be painful, how do you want to be remembered? As that person that was so passionate about life that she lived it to the extreme and took risks or as that person who was always safe and nothing ever really happened to her. Most families of skydivers have already come to terms with the possibility. If not, they will. They are your family - they share some of your genetic traits - they WILL understand. If you are talking about your extended skydiving family, they know that the risk of pain and loss are part of the full spectrum of experiences in life.

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Hey,
I have only recently started jumping my velo but find I get much better swoops when initiating it from a toggle imput rather than yanking on the fronts can anyone shed any light on this? Been jumping the crossfire2 until about 100 jumps ago and that was sweet using fronts, has taken a while to figure out the new ride but don't understand why. I like to know the mechanics behind the ride so would appreciate those in the know letting the cat out of the bag so to speak.

The recovery arc of the velo really takes some getting used to at first.
Coming from a 9cell elliptical you will think you are too high when you come off the risers but something like two seconds later you are entering the sweet spot for your swoop. Practice.

As people have mentioned it's more about a build up of speed and then a very long recovery than a quick snap like you get from toggles.

With your jump numbers you shouldn't need to be reminded which is safer.

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I see there are more freestyle teams entered than freefly teams? Is this not unusual?

I wonder if freestyle is making a resurgence?

Freestyle has always been more prominent in world competition.

Perhaps all the freefly teams are training for vrw 4way?

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I heard the pros are using the skyballs without tails..
can anyone tell me the pros and contras about it??

Biggest con I can think of is that it will only ever fall at one speed, so you better get it right the first time. By putting a long tail on one, you can gradually increase the speed by trimming the tail. Also, if the weight is packed too losely inside the ball it might jiggle around too much in freefall. A tail compensates for that a little.

A ball that falls too slow is generally easier to catch than one that falls too fast.

You can always go on your belly. You can belly fly like nobody's business can't you? If not you shouldn't be ball mastering.

You can always go on your feet. You can sit fly and grab a ball with one hand can't you? If not, you shouldn't be ball mastering, at least not with an untested skyball.

But if a ball is super fast, you might be in a speed dive just to stay relative to it - then you've got to stick out a hand or two to grab it.

Also a tail doesn't just look cool, it gives you that much more of a visual on the ball in case you lose sight of it while doing a transition. When I ball master I NEVER take my eyes off the ball for the entire jump.