peregrinerose

I've done a dozen heli jumps in a 2 day period, no change in the 'falling' sense.

Have you ever dropped out of a bomb bay door? There is no wind. You are completely sheltered. There is no way to tell that the plane is moving or if it is standing still... it 'feels' still because you're completely inside. Then you drop out, just like a balloon.

You are inventing definitions of 'acceleration.' By your definition, you would feel acceleration going around the corner in your car due to change of direction, which clearly you do not. I am using a physics definition of acceleration, which is independent of direction.

I'm not sure why you're so hell bent on 'proving' that you just get used to a sense of falling from a plane, when it clearly doesn't exist and both the physics and the biology state otherwise, but hey, if it makes you happy, have at it

Jakee, it is neither confused nor contradictory, just overly simplified for the non-physiologists of those on here, which I would guess is almost everyone.

To add to Mike's description...

Imagine driving a car, a nice, fast car. You start at 0 mph and floor it. You get pressed into the seat until you hit max speed, and then you no longer get pressed into the seat. Even if you go around a corner (changing direction), you don't feel a change in velocity, only a change in direction.

Same with skydiving. Feeling a change in direction from a plane (riding the hill) is not the same as the 'falling' sensation (a change in velocity) that you get from a ballon/heli.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_(sensation)

http://www.sinauer.com/wolfe2e/chap15/startF.htm

http://www.foryourintelligence.com/the-vestibular-system/

Here's some really quite basic information to get you started. If you're bored and really want to know more, buy a physiology book on the vestibular system. It will explain everything a lot better and in much more detail.

The falling feeling comes from acceleration, you don't accelerate significantly when going from plane to freefall. It's a lot of inner ear/vestibular/neuro physiology that I just don't have the time to explain in detail. You do accelerate from balloon/heli.

By your 'arguement' you'd have a sense of falling the first time you jump from a tailgate 'because you don't do it very often', or dropping out the bomb bay doors of a B-17 'because you don't do it very often'. You can't argue with physiology.

I never had a sense of 'falling' from a plane. Not my first jump, not my 1000th jump. Every single student I've taken has said exactly the same thing, many are surprised that there is no sense of 'falling'. The neurophysiology is why.

Edited to add (since my 12pm patient decided to no show)... the simple version... you have wind resistance and inner ear is adapted to 90mph in a plane... you still have wind resistance and inner ear adapted to high speeds with minimal change in speed in freefall. Wind resistance gives sense of 'weight' and gravity and direction, inner ear gives the info on direction and accelleration. In a heli/balloon... there is no wind resistance, so no sense of 'weight', there is no accelleration or velocity, so inner ear adapted to being stationary. Then you jump, wind resistance increases, inner ear hairs move due to dramatic accelleration from 0 to 120mph, and the sense of 'falling' arises.

Yes it's correct.... it's exactly why you get that sense of falling when going off of a balloon or helecopter, but not from a plane.

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To me, the best part about skydiving is the free-fall experience. I could personally care less about the dingy little airplane with no seats and the parachute almost choking me alive on opening... or the bad landing and broken ankle for that matter... or the whole sub-"culture" that revolves around the sport. It is the activity itself that I love, not the regulation, the FAA, the USPA, the DZs, the other jumpers or the so called camaraderie.

You are missing the forest for the trees. Freefall is not 'the activity itself'... it is one tree in the forest. Skydiving IS the canopy ride, the culture, the people, the planes, the regulations that we follow, the organizations that represent us, even the pissing matches on DZ.com.

What are you looking to gain out of this sport? From your words it appears that your perception of skydiving and what it actually is may not be compatible.

To me, some tandem students would be less work than average, some more work than average, so the fee should represent the average knowing that it all works out in the end. That is how almost every industry works...some of my patients are more work than others, some of my AFF students are more work than others, for varying reasons, but they all get charged the same.

I can understand the surcharge and the logic behind it. I don't agree with it, but I don't own a DZ, so it doesn't matter what I think, it's not my call to make. I'm not a TI (but I sleep with one) and his thoughts on this are the reason I believe this way.

The Ron/Packerboy pissing match was fun to watch, but really went nowhere... that's what tends to happens when two type As talk at each other instead of having a meaningful discourse.

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Like others have already said - everyone, and what may or may not work best for them, is different.

Personally, I've NEVER done a Tandem. On either side of the equation. My 1st jump was AFF, and I am glad it was. For me, I think - if I did my 1st jump as a tandem, I may have actually run the "risk" of never even bothering to ever do it again. AFF - for me, gave me the appreciation of learning and understanding all those "nuances" of what was going on, and that I would have to (relatively anyway) fly my OWN body, and my OWN parachute, along with just the "experience". I fear that if (again, just for me - YMMV) - rather I had experienced my 1st jump as nothing more than a "relaxed" "carnival ride", I would have then been maybe even a just "one & done". I mean, after all, you can certainly experience the thrills of a carnival ride by well... going to the carnival, and riding some of the rides - for a heck of a lot cheaper too!

Skydiving is NOT a "carnival ride", and to me anyway - I don't think it really SHOULD be (or approached as such) either.

There is nothing wrong with ANY of the approaches already mentioned by others in here. Pick whichever is best for YOU - and good luck with it, whichever you decide!!
Edit to add: I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned you can also look into even OTHER methods even still as well. For yet others - either static-line or IAD first-jump methods and progression are still also perfectly valid ways to make a first jump, and even get further into it as however you please from there as well.

Just because one person or another says "I did mine this way, or that way - and it's the best" - trust me, ONE SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL - and once again - your own aptitude, perception(s) and personal needs may vary. There are values and benefits, and legitimate perspectives to any of the currently available 1st jump program methods. Good on you for researching and seeking deeper insight in advance. One size does NOT fit all! Come back in here after you've made your 1st jump, and let us know how it goes.

Blue Skies!

Quoting this all because it's the best post on this thread. I personally did a tandem first, was completely unimpressed, and if it wasn't for my husband being a skydiver, I never would have done AFF because the Tandem was no different than any other thrill ride for me. I had a student Saturday that completely overloaded on his AFF first jump (no tandems) as it was just too much new sensation for him to handle, and probably would have done much better and enjoyed it more had he done a tandem first.

Every person is different, and realistically, it's really impossible to know which way is 'best' for any individual person until they make a jump.

I have flown both and can't really tell any real difference between them from a flight stance (there are minor differences in construction). Probably 50 jumps on a Nitro, and about 150 on the Nitron. I have a Nitron now, and absolutely love it. I can't say enough great things about it. It's exactly what I need in a canopy... aggressive enough to learn to fly the living crap out of it, but can fly conservatively enough to plant in a very congested back yard if necessary (and I have done this).

I'd recommend Ken Plankenhorn at Maytown Sport Parachute club. Probably the closest DZ to you, and Ken's a hell of a good rigger.

'soft' water landing? Hardly. There's nothing soft about water, and gives a whole list of complicating factors, not the least of which is drowning.

Sounds like you just weren't flexible enough to get the legs up high enough. I'd definitely recommend lots of stretching, as that helps quite a bit with skydiving.

It wasn't 'geeky' that I was going for, it was the extreme analyticalness of your post. Engineering types are always that way. I'm an optometrist, and have a love/hate relationship with my engineer type patients due to their excessive overthinking

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What was hardest for you? how did you prep?

The most difficult thing for me by a freaking long shot was believing in myself. Once the confidence switch flipped on, I had no problem with the rest of it. Practice a LOT. I probably had 35-40 practice jumps before the course. I didn't do an official precourse, but did a lot of jumps with two evaluators at my home DZ, and they were amazing with the pointers and confidence building.

First of all... are you an engineer? Just a hunch

Do you have video of your landing? That would be helpful given that you don't know what your leg position actually was on landing. My best guess is that you may have reached for the ground or didn't have them up enough. Your height difference has little to do with it. There are some good pics on here somewhere of a female TI, a tiny little girl, with a tandem 'student' that is well over 6' tall. There's a female TI at a DZ I frequent that often takes guys a foot taller than she is, doesn't seem to affect her landings at all.

About sit vs. stand landings... imagine coordinating 4 legs on two different people precicely so that you aren't tripping each other on landing. Not always feasable or practical, so sliding landings are often used. Pros and cons to both, that I'm sure the TIs will pipe up with (I'm not a TI but I did sleep with one last night
'Difficulty' of landing tandem vs solo is a meaningless term. They are different, that's all. If you want to learn to skydive, heal up and go back and do that solo, either AFF or IAD.

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This is what he looks like, if you see him on your DZ, say Hi, and ask how he's going. Be nice and show you care and that you are concerned for him and the welfare of those around him

I am nice to everyone that shows up at the DZ.... student, observer, fun jumper, visiting instructor... absolutely everyone. I give good intros to the DZ, landing patterns, introductions to jumpers that are doing the same type of jumps as solos get boring after a while, invite to hang out for dinner and a beer when the jumping is done. I also ask level of experience and canopy, for exit order, etc. I will also very nicely decline to get in the plane with a 300 jump wonder on a Velo. Pretty sure the DZO wouldn't allow said scenario in the plane to begin with. I would also very nicely offer my backup rig for use if it was appropriate for the jumper, or very nicely give an intro to the rental gear that is available or more appropriate.

'Mean' is not my MO. Self preservation on the other hand, is pretty high up on my 'to do' list.

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Thats a DZO issue.

Sure... until he jumps out of your plane, goes in, the family sues everybody, including the pilot or owner of the plane, because it must be someone else's fault that poor little johnny died.

I'm glad that his name is posted. I won't get in a plane with him. If he has that little regard for his own safety, he likely has far less for mine.

Edited to add: Just read the rest of the thread. Chad, glad you are putting the velo away, what are you jumping instead?

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I feel like I'm reading a discussion with PackingJarrett... smiliar attitude. Hopefully not the same end result.

Agree on the attitude.
Just a side note to others: PackingJarrett's big accident wasn't related to downsizing. More of a rigging error in a multi-sport aerial activity.

Very true... The underage, over confident, invincibility is the common theme I was referring to, lots of people saying 'slow down' and falling on deaf ears, and unfortunately too often that sense of invincability turns out to be false.

Reading this thread is amazing deja vu. I feel like I'm reading a discussion with PackingJarrett... smiliar attitude. Hopefully not the same end result.

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I'm sure the usual suspects are going to try refute it but you can say what you like, there is more than enough evidence for a clear thinking person to make a basic conclusion from the reported facts.

I'm a clear thinking person, I believe. And the 'facts' in the case keep shifting. Look how many height/weights have been 'reported', and that should be a pretty simple fact to get right. If they can't even get a solid physical measurement, something very simple, accurate and consistent in news reports, how on earth are any of the other 'facts' in the case to be trusted? Initially, I was all for having Zimmerman arrested, but the more I read, questioned, and analyzed the data, the more I realized... I don't know shit about what actually happened here, so am refraining from making a judgement call either way at this time.

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I can't find the article I read now, I was sure it used the term medical examiner, but it may well have been the funeral home. Though sentiments remain regardless of inaccurate description.

Point being if there was this big violent nose breaking fight, surely there would be evidence on the knuckles and surely a guy Zimmerman's size would be able to claw, scratch or throw a punch in the scuffle. Nobody is that bad of a fighter.

http://nancygrace.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/28/funeral-director-saw-no-signs-of-fight-on-trayvons-hands/?iref=allsearch

Not the medical examiner. And my son once attacked my husband, landed my husband in the ER, son didn't have a scratch on his hands. He was so violent that we had to pepper spray him.

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The medical examiner has stated that there were no signs of a fight on the victim, there were no scuffs on his knuckles or other signs of a struggle.

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Has the medical examiner stated that? I only heard of that statement from the funeral home people that prepared him for burial, after the autopsy was already complete.

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In this case, a short grounding was an excellent tool for communicating the severity of his actions.

And I think it wasn't. I think it was punitive, rather than instructive, at a time when instruction was needed, and not punishment.

So there we have it. Onward and upward.

I didn't see it as punitive... especially new jumpers get so wired up with something like this, that they sometimes need the afternoon off as a breather so that they don't make stupid mistakes. It also gives the time for further instruction on the ground with them focusing on said instruction rather than focusing on the skydive that they are getting ready for and distracting them from the canopy skills they are learning during that time.

I've told students to take an afternoon off for many reasons... obvious fatigue, distraction, needing time for ground instruction without the distraction of thinking about a jump, etc. It's not a punishment, it's just an educational tool like any other that is sometimes appropriate.

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Where is "Neither"?

IPAs, Stouts, now THOSE are real beers. Particularly if from a microbrew. KBS from Founders is the best. Aged in bourbon oak barrels.

I think I need a drink now....

IPAs are a subcategory of "Ales"

India Pale Ale

Budweiser is also technically an ale... *GAG* Which is why as a whole, I had to go with 'neither' and vote for subcategories of actual beer, not the broad categories that also encapsulate horse piss.

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Where is "Neither"?

IPAs, Stouts, now THOSE are real beers. Particularly if from a microbrew. KBS from Founders is the best. Aged in bourbon oak barrels.

Ahh, but those are Ales. I've got a nice oatmeal stout and a porter both homebrewed and in the bottle right now. Drop in for a glass.

They are 'ales' in the same way that dark chocolate is chocolate. I won't touch a straight ale, but IPAs, especially double and triples.. yum. And home brew sounds wonderful!!!! One of the best IPAs I had recently was from a friend's home brew.

Seth, I have 2 bottles each of 2010, 2011, and 2012 KBS in my beer 'cellar' as I type :-) Hoping to do a MI trip this fall, supposedly to visit my relatives that live there, but really to hit Founders and Bells breweries!

It figures it's right in the middle of Safety Day for KSC. Hoping to slip out right after my lecture and go to the memorial.