jumper410

I guess there is no rest over this whatsoever. Since my name has been mentioned here multiple times, clarification and rebuttal must be made. This wasn’t me. I had nothing to do with flyers anywhere. The only thing I have done in this was attend ONE council meeting. No letters, no phone calls, one meeting and I will back everything I said In my four minutes allotted. I have never anywhere personally attacked your brother, only his actions. I did not “tear” anyone’s ass. I spoke of why I thought this was a bad idea and referenced what happened in the area in the past and its dramatic, lasting effects. I also refuted the most unbelievable line shit that came from Ed Scott, our paid USPA representative, I have ever witnessed. I addressed some things he said in my presentation because it was USPA that stood idly by and let the DZ in Independence continue with their horrible actions despite multiple complaints for three years and they did nothing even though they witnessed themselves all the violations of BSR’s and FAR’s at an AFF Cert. course they had once. I might also note that DZO never got his AFF rating either. Then Ed Scott is standing at the meeting telling the council how one way they could improve the new DZ’s situation and control over them operating safely was to require USPA membership. He said that if BSR’s were broken that USPA would do something about it. That’s BS. That’s when I looked over to Ed Scott and called him out on the carpet over them not doing anything about Independence. We ARE supposed to LEARN from history and NOT make the same stupid mistakes. My argument was and still is that I felt the new DZO’s needed more experience and ratings to pull this off safely. Don’t make me out to be “evil” for that. Also despite their family loss, that sucks, I had two over the holidays, that doesn’t change the way the DZ promoted itself. I’m not “his guy.” Don’t tell everyone “I did everything” to “sabotage” your brother dream. I did not. I laid everything I had out on the table here and that was all I did. You are doing the same smearing me in the mud saying I dogged skydivers and skydiving. I am a skydiver and I have given a lot to the sport by giving people the best times of their lives and creating new skydivers and having a great time with a lot of great people all over the country. I don’t appreciate this slanted view and personal attack on me when I never attacked your brother. Just the way they went about what they did. BTW: I didn’t see any other video cameras in the meeting, but I had one and a tape recorder. I also I have most of it on tape. I had no way to know that the meeting was going to be so long or what was coming up next in it so I had to make choices on the fly about when to start and stop recording. I only had one DV tape and one micro-cassette. In some areas, I switched from camera and went to audio cassette and back again to just try and best use the limited resources I had with me. Me and my “cronies” never “smeared” skydiving and skydivers. We presented facts about it. And I am one person, not all of MRVS. We have a great group of people at this DZ and I am not representing their views. We did have a great turnout for our events the past three weekends and everyone had fun. And guess what, the conversations around the campfire weren’t about Harrisonville but about the fun everyone had and the great BBQ and telling old fun jump stories. Anyone saying they don’t want to come here now is making a mistake and missing out on meeting a bunch of good people. Don’t judge everyone else here just because you dis-agree with me and if you do, that’s your narrow mindedness. Your brother didn’t do a very good job looking into this. Harrisonville is not a prime location. With the proximities and Life Flight Eagle there and the already previous history with the City and skydiving (throwing the previous DZ off for not having the unattainable insurance before) why would he pick that airport is beyond me? Maybe Dolphin did you all favor by forcing you to buy that other property so they can’t pull the rug out from under you later like they did Dana (former owner of Horizon Skydiving Center) ten years ago. Consider that. Don’t portray all of MRVS and the Hall’s as evil. They are not! Tom has done a huge, HUGE amount for skydivers and skydiving. He has a legitimate stake in this and legitimate reasons for bringing into the picture valid points to be considered. Your brother really should have, in my opinion, continue his dream by getting that DZ experience and the appropriate ratings and some experience with them before jumping into opening a large DZ operation. Camera jumps just aren’t enough. Great dream, nice story. But get clear facts and understand or hear the other side. I am NOT an enemy of the sport I do love. I knew the people with the exception of the tandem passenger that died on that fateful flight in Independence. My sister was manifested on the next load before the crash too. Look, your brother simply did not come into this big venture really prepared. It takes a lot more than a big airplane and a landing area to make a big DZ. Where was the comprehensive plan at addressing this. I talked to 5 members of the Life Flight operation in person, firsthand. They were there the opening day and they said “it was a circus.” No crowd control, kids riding bicycles on the taxi-ways, no spectator control and the Otter was dominating the airport taking off downwind, dis-obeying that airports common procedures, blocking that only taxi-way for other pilots to taxi out the whole time. This is an example of not having things under control or a plan to deal with this. Kids should not have been riding bikes around the airport. And there really is no insurance to cover general liability for skydiving, that was true. That’s why MRVS owns the whole airport. You are now being evil for making one-sided accusations about things that you don’t have all the info on. Were you at the meeting I was at or….? YOU GOT IT!!

yeah man, good ole thesarus.com. Donald Jeffery, sound familiar? oh, i get it, you had to be like a sherlock holmes and show everybody you could find my middle name somewhere, neat. i have never gone by that name before. what are you going to do next, tell me my DOB?

Hey, that’s BS! I started the thread notating and then asking about the ethics of it which quickly got blown totally out of context in to “bashing” of the DZ instead of what the DZO’s did. And not everyone said who cares. I have seen many times at boogies, dz’s and events where just one little thing wasn’t as promised and you’d thought the freak'n world ended. Been to the convention when everybody bitched about all the “promised” aircraft not showing, several times now, by jumpers that “saw it on the website?” I bet a lot of you talking this crap on my post about this are the same ones that if you drove half a state to a dz that claimed to be so grand and had everything they claimed to have in their ad, got there and had nothing but a plane, you’d be the first to throw a fit and say “what the hell?” That statement is total BS too. Where do you get [flyboy6554 ] Ternes’s cocky statements about me “having the NSA put satellites over Harrisonville so I can watch” = “not falling in step with me.” Totally disjunctive statement. Dave fired the first shot over the bow on this and you know it, not me. I had nothing to say to him until that. He’s been giving our DZO a bunch of shytte you don’t know about. He said that stupid crap, so I fragged him for it. He deserved it. Yeah, I flew there in my personal aircraft and took two pictures, so what. I was just out flying around and I hadn’t been over there to see for myself so I went to see the situation firsthand. That should be reasonable to see what I am talking about first dontcha think? I wasn’t sooo upset in the initial posting. I was merely pointing out the double-standard going on about everybody HATING (that word again) SKYRIDE so much and bashing the hell out of them for doing the same thing Eriksmone’s website does. What gives with that? And p.j., what is your ongoing ranting about “my love for skydiving/skydivers?” And the banter back and forth about other DZ’s also having false claims, well sure anyone can pick about anything apart, but there’s a huge difference between little half truths about small stuff and a dz saying they “are the largest skydiving center in the area” with all these facilities and amenities (originally, now removed they also talked about having nice video de-brief rooms with plasma screen tv’s too) and amount to nothing more than a landing area and a borrowed airplane. It’s build first, advertise it and they will come, not advertise it, see if they come and then build it. Fuck that beer, if you’re sending in my name, Kokanee Gold from British Columbia is best beer on the planet. For all that love I have for skydivers, especially if there your friends, wink, wink.

You’re right, people can tell all about what kind of person I am based on this thread. Who do you think I hate? I don’t recall one place I have said one bad thing about the Eriksmones. I do not know them. I know who they are because I saw them and heard them speak at the city council meeting. The topic is and was drop zone ethics. How is it that some people find it hateful for the two other competing DZ’s to be dis-satisfied with a new DZ coming in to town making claims they don’t come anywhere near meeting? Is this ethical? Is it fair to the DZ’s that do provide what they promise? Is it hateful for the other DZO’s to bring up valid points for the city council members to consider about having a DZ on their property? Shouldn’t the playing field be even for all the DZ’s? Even if the Eriksmones are great people, does it look like this thing was well planned or resemble any forethought at all? These are the questions that need to be answered here.

Well Mr. Dave since you decided to go over the top here for some reason, I will tell you my thoughts on this matter you suggested here: Why don't you contact the NSA there Mr. Daaaave being that they probably still remember you from when you balled up that there '16 a while back in Kansas. http://www.f-16.net/f-16_fighting_falcon_airframe-1597.html http://groups.google.com/group/sci.military/browse_thread/thread/c9143e72cd737178/a6d36a040c799864?lnk=st&q=dave+ternes+%2B+crash&rnum=1&hl=en#a6d36a040c799864 Did you have to pay for just the aircraft or the aircraft and the farmhouse? Does that mean you're still paying off that there airplane? When is putting back up a tent that blew down in a wind storm the day before a change in facilities? Or is it when they suck out the dirty water in the porta-potties and replace it with fresh blue water, is that a change in facilities that you think I should be interested in? Maybe it's when they drag the suedo manifest shed around the property to alleviate the county's zoning requirements of commercial use. Is this a change in faculties you think I should be interested in? No, no, Dave, I just happened to be out flying in my aircraft (not sponsored by the Kansas Air National Guard or the US taxpayers) to a public use airport and happened upon all of these items of discussion. I found myself to be somewhat confused from the description on KC Skydiving Center's website compared to what was there and thought maybe I landed at the wrong location. I didn't know Harrisonville was hosting an antique RV park. Since you seem so excited about the fabulous jumps you made there, why don’t you do the surveillance instead and let us know when they resemble what was previously and currently being advertised?

uh, ok, i guess since this is in reply to jumper410 that you are addressing me, now then, who the hell is Jeffery? and thanks for the big tip, i just now had an epiphany about people thanks to your comments.

Sounds like you should be attacking Skydive Texas instead of the KC dz..... I have had the pleasure of working the Paul and Jo for a year...they are good people. As far as slamming them saying they can't handle a high volume operation, they have worked at a place with volume YOU can't even imagine. I have known DZO's who have every rating you can have. I have known DZO's who have 5 jumps. Both have the ability to run a awesome dz....or run it into the ground. Maybe it's all the negativity that has cause the lack of jumpers in KC..... oh, okay, you tell me who i should be attacking! and more volume than i can imagine? uh huh huh. listen tex, i done wurked at dz's frum coast-ta-coast, seen it all, well alot. from hawaii to maine and down to aruba. now tell me cuntry, how can you say more than i can imagine?

i'm not sure how any given person can be working for a business and not be staff. i know at my dz we have part-time staff, but they are still staff. in any case, i will take your word for it, you are not staff at any dz, and do not live in KC full time. some people might start to wonder why you are taking the position you currently have. i am not one of those people, i know that you are only speaking out because you love skydiving and genuinely wish to promote skydiving. in celebration of your love for the sport, and your unswerving dedication to safety, i am sending a case of beck's beer to KCSC. they will be toasting the honor, joy, love, and comradery that you have brought to skydiving. ok. quickly, on-staff means you are on the regular schedule either full or part-time basis. many instructors do jumps at dz's that don't fit this description. i am not in a position to be able to schedule myself regularly anywhere at this time. does that clarify this now? i stated my reasons for my postion earlier. re-read it i guess. it's about qualified, experienced people operating large aircraft and running DZ's. this is not a good OJT business. stakes are high for skydiving and the sport/aviation as a whole for screw-ups due to in-experience, incompetence. see outrageous operating expense that were nowhere near the levels they are at now. due to huge increases in insurance, etc. due to all the jump plane crashes there have been the last three years and other accidents. it's really simple. we been down this road here already in kc. it cost aviation 27 million dollars in successful lawsuits and 6 deaths, this is fact. due to what i stated above. later.

Just a clarification, I said that, no one else, not MRVS, not Skydive KC. I said that because it is what happened after the Independence debacle. There were a lot of real troublemaker jumpers that were sent away from MRVS and ended up down there. When it went belly-up, they tried to come back to MRVS and cause more trouble again. That is why I said that about “groveling” and that is what happened. These people were also warned about the dangers they faced going to Independence and the threat is posed to skydiving as well. These are facts. Just ask some of the people from around here. And another question that I have been asked, who do I work for? Put quickly and simply, I am not officially “on staff” anywhere right now but I do work at MRVS and in East Texas off and on. I travel back and forth between Dallas and KC a lot right now and have two places of residence. I last worked on staff at Skydive Texas a little over two years ago up until they closed down after their Porter crash.

uh, ok. the only PM you ever got from me was the one you copy and pasted here to the forum. i have no idea why you are just now telling me not to PM you anymore because I haven't. do you think you can use the F word a little more too? for someone that doesn't waste their time with mindless bickering, why are you always doing it then? how about that F word some more?

Hmmm, I guess I should not be too surprised at what became of this thread judging from the others regarding the new DZ. So far, the only response that has carried any merit is that from “stratostar " everything else has just been the very mud-slinging I was complaining about when I started the thread to expose some facts. The only thing I can find I shouldn’t have done was to outright tell people not to go there instead of just letting people decide. That’s it, everything else is just, well, true. Going quickly down the list here, I have been accused of not having the facts but with nothing else to back that up, been told “it’s just advertising,” as a viable explanation for their practices, been accused of sabotaging the new DZ, been accused of publicly and childishly bashing and even threatening (huh) the new DZ by the Vice-Prez of K-state, been told I should fear what this thread is doing to my “reputation,” (reputation for what I don’t know?), been told to fuck off (hmmm who’s childish?) and everything I said is all a lie because the “virtual DZ” had a boogie. First off I don’t have anything to fear here. I am not a DZO. I had nothing to do with inventing “phantom angry citizens” or whatever it was called. I only have a concern that based on what has presented itself so far of this new DZ, this situation as it is now isn’t good for skydiving in KC in the longer run. It is not as if the Eriksmones came in here with a plan for success. They didn’t. That should be clear by now. It would be totally different if they came in, fought the battles over location before opening up, bought property, built facilities, and considered more carefully how to go about opening a DZ and getting the experience to run one first. This little skydiving industry is very fragile, it’s not like opening up another gas station on a corner somewhere. Don’t you people realize the kinds of things that are at stake here for the sport everywhere? The sport cannot afford bad judgment anymore, anywhere by any DZ or entity. Go ask your DZO, where ever you are, about just how much costs have skyrocketed for everything to keep a DZ running, then ask them why. Ask how much insurance on those Otters has gone up in the last couple of years and why there is no longer jump aircraft insurance available for a Porter. It is because there have been so many accidents in the past couple of years and mistakes made in judgment. Don’t you think that before giving all this credit to the new DZ that they should have built something that exists first and have a little bit of road behind them? Knowing how a lot of skydivers are, there is a tendency to make conflict regardless, even if some of you agree with these points, it’s too hard to resist having to find something bad to say about it. I think some of these post’rs would swear on their lives the sky is green just to make a point. In all the other threads, I heard all this rhetoric about people posting anonymously. Afraid to express their thoughts and views, well I am not afraid to call it like it is and these are my views on the matter. If you don’t like it, do something constructive other than complain about it and issue personal attacks.

wow, that really brings out your insecurity and maturity level. i didn't know i resorted to PM because mods were watching. is that what you think? and the question posed in the PM, still stands.

It is amazing to see what is going on these days in the heartland for skydiving. A hot topic is the new DZ that recently opened in Harrisonville, MO. There has been nothing but name calling and dirty mud-slinging over this since the announcement of it back in January. But what is behind all the slinging? Dis-information! Now, how about some FACTS?! The facts are very simple to understand and very clear here. A couple decided they would start a DZ in the KC area. They decided to create a website depicting this DZ as an established business and drop zone in the KC area and claiming it to be the largest DZ in the area. (see for yourself: http://www.kcskydiving.com ). “The Kansas City Skydiving Center is the largest skydiving center in the Kansas City area.” Again, FACTS here: This drop zone did not even exist! It did not have any presence whatsoever when it was announced and is nothing more than an empty field and a tool shed now. (See attached pictures), yet it makes this claim. (Pictures also here: http://www.illusions-cs.com/KCS/index.htm ) They have recently purchased seven acres adjacent to the airport. Seven is a lot less than 166 acres another area DZ has which makes me wonder how it can be the "largest." “The Kansas City Skydiving Center also employs some of the friendliest, most experienced skydiving instructors in the Midwest. Most of our skydiving instructors have made over 5,000 jumps each.” NOT TRUE. FACT: The owners have no instructional ratings whatsoever! The only tandem master came from another local DZ and has just recently got a TM rating. “We are open every day of the week to better serve you.” FACT: They were not open not even one day during their first week or so far this week. (http://www.kcskydiving.com/base/hours.html) (http://www.kcskydiving.com/base/about.html) “The Kansas City Skydiving Center uses the most advanced, state-of-the-art equipment available to skydivers today.” FACT: They have no student equipment, no classrooms, no buildings, not even a restroom. (http://www.kcskydiving.com/base/about.html) “Our brand-new aircraft will take you to 14,000 feet, 50% higher than all of our competitors.” FACT: They are leasing an Otter, I saw it, it is NOT BRAND-NEW either and they only have it one more weekend before it goes back to Texas. They claim to have a Caravan on their website. (http://www.kcskydiving.com/facilities/aircraft.html) (http://www.kcskydiving.com/base/about.html) “Come check out the premier skydiving resort in the Heartland!” FACT: A field and a Home Depot tool shed manifest office is all there is to it! See attached pictures. (http://www.kcskydiving.com/facilities.html) “Additional amenities include on-airport hot showers, picnic tables, and plenty of covered packing area.” FACT: They have no buildings, no showers, no toilets, and no picnic tables. They did have a tent though for covered packing, part of the time. (http://www.kcskydiving.com/facilities.html) “First-Jump Consumer Alert : Beware of certain websites claiming to be actual skydiving centers. These websites are trying to sell you a useless gift certificate that cannot be redeemed. Please click here for more details.” (http://www.kcskydiving.com/index.html) Now how can they put this on their website when they are not even a drop zone themselves or USPA group member? And up until April 1st, they claimed to be “closed” for the winter when they have never even flown a load until April 1st. How’s that?? Look people, face the facts here. These people are liars. And this cannot be a personal attack because it is true. Check it out yourself! People should know this and be told. If you claim to have all these things and don’t, you are lying. Very basic here. Now what I don’t understand is this, everyone is bashing 1-800-SKYRIDE for the same thing; having a website depicting facilities, services and equipment when they in fact do not. WHY is it okay for these guys here at KC Skydiving to do the same thing and get away with it?? It is completely bass ackwards here. You got two very committed DZO’s, Tom Dolphin, Chris Hall who have been here for 25 and 9 years respectively and have spent those years and hundreds of thousands if not in the millions of dollars creating drop zones for people here. They are “stakeholders.” STAKEHOLDER: The people-employees, customers, suppliers, and the community-who are affected by the actions of a business. (Management Skills & Applications, 11th Edition – Leslie W. Rue & Lloyd L. Barnes) These two DZO’s have every single right in the world as stakeholders to oppose a group of individuals making claims in their business they simply do not even come close to having or meeting. What these new DZO’s does affects everybody in this. Tom and Chris did not bring up anything, not one thing, at any of the meetings they were in fact INVITED to attend that was NOT true. Not one thing. Anybody, please bring forward just one thing and I will be happy to clarify it for you. Tom Dolphin has a 166 acre, dedicated facility for skydiving that has been here as long as I can remember. It has buildings, modern classrooms and equipment, video room, beautiful indoor packing, air conditioned student packing, heated in all packing areas, a full-service, real loft, nice men’s and women’s showers and restrooms, a nice, large pavilion/creeper area and miles of un-obstructed landing area and more. This is FACT. Why are you people bashing this DZO that has provided so many years of service and awesome facilities and has sacrificed for the sport in a numerous ways? Remember the flood of ’93? He brought it all back for skydivers. He had multiple turbines in and out of here, multiple times for boogies and had them here full-time as well. The area here chose not to jump enough to support them full-time, again FACT. He has brought in out-of-town turbines too many times to mention yet a select few who either don’t have all the facts or are just plain stupid continue to call him and Chris Hall out to be the bad guys. How is that?? Bottom line, you can’t get something for nothing. Pick a side. Either stop bashing 1-800-SKYRIDE and side with the new DZO’s or support the DZ’s that have been there and are established and in the phone book and have provided so much, for so long here in KC. And another thing, get over being such cheapskates and buck up the cash and you will HAVE MORE here. All the whining about prices for lift tickets and BS when there are constantly people walking around wearing new rigs and jumpsuits all the time and there is no shortage of Chief’s season ticket holders here either. If you can afford that, you can afford to SUPPORT YOUR DZ and HAVE MORE! People cut the crapola, send a message, and don’t support the new DZ. If they can’t tell the truth from the beginning, what makes you think they will later? Support the stakeholders, support yourselves! Send them back to New Jersey. I expect this fight will go on for a while as the Eriksmones are surely going to do all they can to appeal the “cease and desist” order they were given this past weekend by Cass County. It would be best to help make it go a little quicker and not support a couple of out-of-townies who think they can just drop in with a website, no facilities, no DZO experience, no ratings, no experienced staff and no assets and re-create skydiving in KC. When it finally goes bad there, I wouldn’t come crying back to MRVS and/or Skydive Kansas City and if you do be prepared to do some much deserved graveling! Just my two-cents given my 14 years in the sport and 6 years working full-time in skydiving.

So what, who the hell cares anyway? i heard the loads weren't even full and so what if the numbers of jumps were a little higher. most of the draw was from a long distance. are those people going to be there every weekend to support it? i don't jump up here anyway much. just because i have a place up here doesn't mean i care about how many jumpers KC Skydiving Center put in the air. but the only reason i have posted here is to make it known that i back tommy all the way because he is right and has been down this road before and he knows what he is talking about regarding drop zone operations. these people at KC skydiving center have no instructional ratings, no aircraft operations experience, no FAA licenses of any kind and no real knowledge of DZ operations, (just jumping at one does not constitute knowing how to run one). when it goes bad, they will just pull out and leave the others dz's with the fallout to deal with. you have to have a license to be an emt and virtually every other type of career area or business that involves being responsible for other's lives does too. there ought to be a strict license in order to operate a drop zone and aircraft. but we'll never see that because it would make it too hard for dz's to start up and thus hinder the promotion of skydiving by organizations like uspa which is a spineless organization that has no bark or bite and does not even enforce it's own BSR's when broken like ed scott stood up and said in front of the harrisonville city council. remember independence? prime example. i was there and so was uspa to witness the repeated, ongoing violations but they did nothing, people are dead and millions of dollars in lawsuits later, they obviously haven't learned anything yet.

You're right about voting with wallets, the Porter flew from sun up to sun down and never shut down.

yes, we do

For all those that didn't get to spend that extra Sunday jump money, you will have another chance this weekend to get rid of that extra cash and have more fun! The porter will be here this weekend, all weekend. See ya!

EXCUSE ME, I BELIEVE "GEMINI" SUGGESTED I WAS POSSIBLY HIJACKING A THREAD OR WHATEVER YOU FORUM PEOPLE CALL IT AND THEN YOU SAID SOMETHING ABOUT HIDING BEHIND A NEW REGISTERED NAME AND BEING AFRAID TO SPEAK MY MIND. IF YOU LOOK, YOU WILL SEE MY NAME AND THAT I HAVE BEEN REGISTERED SINCE 2003, MOE. SO IN THE WORDS OF YOU BILL O'REILY FANS, "SHUT UP."

Why? What difference does it make to you in Georgia? Are you currently in the area here?

I was just out at Missouri River Valley Skydivers Friday and they had a turbine porter there and flying loads. Looks like they did 3-4 loads at the end of the day after the winds died down. It's an incredible jumpship with dual sliding window doors and a huge "porch" to stand on on both sides. They have a beautiful, clean facility with nice hot showers, mens and womens, tons of space, the best KC BBQ Sat. night courtesy of the championship award winning "Swine Flew BBQ," beer, excellent indoor packing, huge pavillion with food service and a nice lounge area and is a dedicated skydiving airport with a beautiful view out of those all picture window doors on both sides in the Porter of the MO River and Sunshine Lake. Great opportunity to jump an awesome -27 screaming Porter. Enjoy all the turbines, wherever you jump this weekend. Be safe.