CooperNWO305

20 hours ago, Cola said:

What was it EU use to say in his Daily DB

- No one but Cooper gets to decide what the facts are - 

something along those lines, I kind of love hearing that - thinking that.

 

Well, if he got banned then that narrows down who reported him. I’m assuming it takes more than just one person, given how hard it was to get rid of Blevins. 
 

People don’t like Fly calling out their theories with facts, they’d rather go to Facebook where everyone agrees with you, disagrees because of personal vendettas, or to join the anti EU faction. 
 

I’ll continue to rely on Fly for his observations. We all have our quirks. 

For those not on Facebook, I posted this. 
 

February 1971 Ladies Home Journal mentioned in the first Gunther letter. A very similar story to the one he wrote in True in 1962. I suspect it was this 1971 article that triggered something and maybe made someone remember the 1962 article. For those who are looking for someone who ran away and never came back, this is where it came from. The Gunther letters indicate someone not totally satisfied with middle class suburban life. So to rule someone out who never actually disappeared shows a lack of creative thinking, poor knowledge of the book or having not read it at all, or not understanding Gunther’s previous articles. I had actually made a similar mistake when I first started, but once I was set straight by another researcher, I realized these articles existed. That was a few weeks into my research. Yet there are still people parroting this same angle after years of knowing about these articles. I’ll write more over at DZ.

BREAK

Some additional thoughts. The anti Gunther and anti Smith team continue to grasp at straws. I’ve heard the term “victimized” used to describe one of Smith’s family members, yet it was a member that is not me who has been posting screen shots with her name. He is using her for his own personal vendetta and I believe she may be too trusting to understand what is going on. This anti Smith team could easily have made contact five years ago when The Oregonian article came out, but they didn’t. They are not in it to help the Smith family, only help themselves. Remember, the Oregonian thought the Gunther connections were pretty good, as do many others.  But, I digress. 
 

Rather than bury their head in the sand like is happening, I would suggest asking about some of the coincidences in Gunther’s book. Once you take away the hijack and disappearance section, you’re not left with many details.  I’d be asking why the following items made it into a book. And contrary to statements made by biased, uninformed and low level thinkers, not everyone’s life can be made to fit this book. Also, in 1982 there were just not ways to cross check this info like we have now. In 1982 we only just got hold of the 1910 census.  No Facebook no military records etc. like we have now. 
 

So. How do these items make it into the book and family does not wonder what is going on? Dan Clair’s son saw the connections. He’s a bright guy.

A connection to NYC through post marks and knowing the phone booth at the Pan Am Building.

Wife’s birthday of March 2.

Born in Canada goes to Newark joins Army  

Gets a camera as a gift as a kid and his hobby is taking pics at his high school. **This one should give Smith’s family pause.

A family property by a small lake. How many families can say their father and mother’s families had lake property on the same lake?

A family member who goes on a long trip overseas. 
 

A scar on his hand, enough to note it. Again, Smith’s family should think. 

Someone in their life named Paul Cotton. Not too many in the US in the 1920s-40s. Yet one lived in Bloomfield, NJ. Oh, and a Clara named hospital right near Smiths’s house.

Most suspects are ruled out quickly by age, or looks, or a number of other things. When this doesn’t happen, it’s time to maybe sit and think that maybe there is more going on. Maybe it’s denial, maybe it’s more, maybe some people will begin to think on their own and not be manipulated by a couple Cooperites with their own vendettas.  A few of us have offered to do all of this behind the scenes and keep quiet, but I wonder now if that time has passed.  Threats, veiled threats, and attempting to cost someone their job and career are quite over the line.

Someone out there was DB Cooper.

2 hours ago, Cola said:

Trying to close out Height so if I missed something please kick in a reference. I welcome any critiques. 

Previous Height REF- DZ post #62990

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/?do=findComment&comment=5024687

 

 

Previous Height Update REF- DZ post #63008

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/?do=findComment&comment=5024826

 

Sorry for the long post but just trying to be exhaustive on height..

 

Height Update Final

 

 

Verified Standing Observations:

 

Flo - 6'0 in her interview 

 

Flo - 6'1 cockpit notes and in the teletype at 3:54

 

Tina - 5'10 - 6' first Interview Reno

 

Tina - 6' second interview Philly

 

Hal Williams - Gate agent - 6'1+

 

Denis Lysne - ticket agent -  5'10 or 5’11

 

Nancy House - No recorded statement of height

 

 

 

Likely Standing Observation :

 

Alice - 6'1

 

 

 

Verified Seated Observations:

 

Bill Mitchell - 5'9 to 5'10

 

Robert Gregory - 5'9

 

Labissoniere - 5'10

 

Cord Spreckel - 5'10

 

 

 

Ckret- 5'10 to 6'1

 

Overall take on height :

 

Cooper’s Height is clearly segmented.

 

With the exception of Denis Lynse, those that observed Cooper standing put him at 6' - 6’1.

Tina in her initial Reno interview provided a range of 5’10-6' but ultimately provided no range just a flat 6' in her final Philly interview.   Hal, Flo and Alice all at one time put Cooper at 6’1. Flo revised her initial reported 6’1 in her notes lowering him to 6ft from her SEA- TAC interview. Flow and Alice’s estimates of height were in all likelihood provided within 1 hour of being in Coopers presence. Where Tina's initial recall on height was provided more than 3+ hours after last contact.   

Those that observed Cooper seated place him at roughly 5’10.

Robert Gregory the only witness whom put him on the low side of 5’9 noted that he  observed  Cooper in a posture of being sunk-down in his seat, slouched.  Bill Mitchell whom provided a range of 5’9-5’10 predominantly observed Cooper from the vantage of looking across one empty seat, an isle, and past Tina to see Cooper seated in the middle seat. There is nothing that indicates Bill observed Cooper other than form a seated position. Both Robert Gregory and Labissoniere observed Cooper while they went to the lavatory.   

 

Estimated Duration and Quality of Observation

 

Hal Williams – 5 to 35+ minutes  between 2:05- 2:40+ – Observation was people watching.

 

This is almost exclusively an observation. This appears to be an idle moment where Hal was not occupied with servicing customers. Standing by the gate Hal is observing the passengers to pass the time, “people watching”.

His full attention appears to have been on Cooper as he singled Cooper out from the crowd specifically for his dress and for his demeaner. This means Hal established a base line observation of the crowd and  isolated Cooper by his attire and by his behavior relative to the crowd. 

Possibly of all the witnesses, Hal’s observation on Cooper’s height was the longest. We do not know how much time Hal himself was at the gate nor do we know how much time Cooper was at the gate.

The perspective of Hal’s observation was relative to others and without a scale distortion from inside the cabin. There was potentially an observation relative to  Himself as Cooper exited the gate area at boarding, or handed Hal his ticket to rip out a stub.

 

Denis Lynse –  2-5 minutes.  Observation was a service interaction.

 

Sometime after 2pm and likely concluding within 3-5 minutes.

Denis has a perspective relative to oneself at a distance of 2-3 ft form behind a ticket counter.

The position of a ticket agent is about service and thru put. You process passengers and collect fares.

There was a “Long line” noted as having formed prior to this interaction with Cooper. Lynse in qualifying a Long  line in his statement was likely running behind and very expeditious in handling Cooper. As lines build there is a natural urgency to process individuals quicker.

This interaction began with  a greeting, Cooper stating destination, Denis asking is that one way or round trip,  Any bags, your name,  that’ll be $20, Cooper reaching into pocket- billfold and providing exact change, one of them filling out the Ticket name,  adding Dan Cooper to a flight manifest, print/stamp /issue the ticket, concluding with Denis directing the passenger to the gate. 

I think it is safe to presume that under normal conditions this interaction could have been accomplished well under 5 minutes and under rushed conditions likely between 2-3 minutes.

This was not as much of an observation as it was an ordinary customer interaction.

 

 

Flo 1 – 5+ minutes - Observation was a Greeting, conversation & fitting harness.

 

Flo’s perspective was on the tarmac - in the open, upon approach and relative to oneself. 

Greeting of 2 -10+ seconds @ boarding

Asking questions while putting on Harness/parachute maybe within the 2 -5+ minute range

Cooper was putting on the parachute in front of Flo and likely in front of Alice. Flo may have been asking him questions about his final destination and if the girls were going with him or  could get off. This conversation may have occurred while he was putting on the harness for the chute which may be why she indicates his attention dropped from her questioning. 

Also there are several moments where Cooper may have been standing in her presence.  When she observed him acting child like, when he told Flo to pick up the ransom, when he  reached into his pocket and tried to hand flow a tip. After he had put on the harness and back parachute he likely did not take a seat immediately.

 

Tina  1- 3+ minutes, she observed Coops standing 3 times minimum.

1) In her initial statement Tina said she only saw him stand when he went to the lavatory. It’s possible she was sitting next to him, isle seat, and had to get up to let him out for his trip to the lavatory.   

2) In her second interview she stated that they both went to the airstairs control panel at takeoff. Standing next to him Tina gave him instructions and they both took their seats.

3) Last observation was seeing him “standing in the isle” as she drew the curtain and pleaded with him to take the bomb or disarm it. Although this is at a distance and presumed under dim lighting conditions.

There are also moments  of Tinas interaction which have enough movement to be interpreted as not likely being conducted form a seated position. Wrapping the bank bag, cutting up the parachute, inspecting the 4 chutes, there is quite a bit of movement in these actions.

It is hard to imagine removing a parachute and paracord from a container without standing up.  further it is hard to imagine wrapping 14 feet of paracord around a bag top to bottom side to side, form a seated position. I personally have an image of him kneeling in the isle to cannibalize these shroud lines with his pocket knife. But that’s my imagination.   Tina may have seen him stand during these actions.

Also his isle became quite crowded as Tina brought him more stuff, his Case, a harness, 4 parachutes ,the ransom, an unpacked parachute. It’s natural to think that he may have stood up spread these items out a bit and organize himself infront of Flo or Tina.

The unpacked parachute came to rest draped over  Row 17 across the isle and one row up form 18E which Cooper occupied.  A Back type parachute came to rest across the isle in seat 18B.  there is no question Cooper stood to move these items but when during Tina’s presence or after she went to the Cabin.

I also imagine, that after the harness and back parachute were on Cooper may have stood for a while or that he would have changed his posture and sat more upright on the edge of the seat rather than relaxing with the back chute on against the seat back. This changes the way in which Tina would observe his posture from being slouched to upright.

 

Alice’s Observation may have been close to what Flo observed 1-5+ min

 

If Flo’s interview is sequential then Alice may have been present for Florence’s questioning of Cooper on destination and if the stewardesses were going /could exit. Like Flo, Alice may have observed Cooper standing while putting on the parachute.

 

 

Seated Observations –

 

Bill Mitchell – Observation intermittent over nearly the entire duration of the flight

 

Observation was looking across an isle and past Tina.  He was not suspicious of Cooper but took an interest in him. Bill himself may have only observed Cooper  while he himself was seated. Mitchell is 6’2” – 220lbs and noted that Cooper seemed smaller than him that he felt he could have yanked him out of his seat if he wanted. Cooper had a medium build. 

Robert Gregory 1-2 minutes

 

Observed of Cooper in passing as he went to the lavatory. Had one hard look  at him when deplaning at distance of 4+ rows. Noted Cooper appeared to be a short individual but that his posture was slouched down in seat.

Labissoniere 2-5 minutes

 

Observed Cooper in passing several as he went to the lavatory. He was blocked once coming out to the lavatory and observed an interaction between Tina, the Cowboy and Cooper. Took notice of Cooper. He is reported as having some suspicion of Cooper.

Cord Spreckle – 2-4 minutes.

 

Observed Cooper from where he was seated which was the left of the plane two rows from the rear. May have further observed Cooper when he moved seats forward while circling SEA-TAC. 10 minutes after takeoff he thought there was a problem.  He indicated some suspicion in seeing Tina on the phone constantly.

My take on height is still that Cooper's range is 5'11-6'1, my sweet spot is that he was 6ft. I have significantly greater confidence in those witnesses that observed him standing vs seated estimates of his height. Hal seems to have had the best observation with Flo placing second followed by Alice or Tina, IMO.  

 

Your height estimate. What is it in shoes and barefeet?

10 hours ago, georger said:

So where are the stamp dna test reports ?  Available to the public or only to officials in North Korea ? I want to see the data! One rumor claims two male donors ?

Georger. You made it clear that Gunther made the whole thing up. No need to worry yourself and be part of this piece of the conversation. 

51 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

And that's just it, the male DNA is evidence of some level of hoax. The question is how much of a hoax, what kind of hoax, and what motivated the hoaxer[s]

Male DNA. That indicates a team, at least a female to call Gunther and a male who licked the stamp. Or a male who did it all. 

59 minutes ago, Andrade1812 said:

You can take the top and bottom of the can off with a can opener, then you have a 6 to 8 inch piece of trim coil you can roll into something shaped like dynamite. If you dress it up with wires and tape and make an effort you might get something that passes for an ied. 

I don't happen to believe this but it's plausible-ish. I like the idea of the fake bomb being a ploy by Cooper to Clara to avoid the telling her the fact the dynamite was real.

It’s only a matter of time before the DNA from the letter and stamp tell a story. If it is Gunther’s, then I’ll eat crow. If it isn’t, then I’ll relish in the fact that the haters were wrong. 

One thing I think we’ve shied away from in this case is the confinements of marriage and kids and work. Maybe that is why Gunther’s stories and books resonated with men of the 70s. Back then divorce was just not the option that it is now. A middle aged man tied down with the complexities of life and at the end of his rope very well could be who Cooper was. It’s a taboo subject in this present time, but being tied down is tough for many. I wonder too if that is why men are so attracted to this case and not women. How many men don’t dream of getting away, if just for a moment?

Was Cooper a loner with no family and friends? Possibly. No kid wants to think of their father or grandfather wanting to get away, but many men do it. 

I remember debating Shutter on this one. I would not have thought much of the notes in a matchbook until I saw it in North by Northwest. It would be interesting if he did write notes like in the movie. Some pics about 2/3 down in the post. 
 

https://dbcooperhijack.com/2019/01/04/d-b-cooper-cary-grant-and-the-1959-film-north-by-northwest/

Has anyone actually tried to put glue on their fingers? Airplane glue? And seen how it works? I have not tried it, although I do remember as a kid making models that the stuff was pretty hard to get off my fingers  

https://ericulis.com/pages/media-release-01-17-24?fbclid=IwAR0gz1__b2d4JYCAEnwG-unU5OK1MkEpVpUC9cLUTsddkQue6HNhaeOJveo

8 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I find that most don't actually understand Gunther's book premise..  what he is actually claiming as fact. He did not claim as fact that he was contacted by Cooper or that "Clara's" story was true.

 

Basically, these are what Gunther claims are true.

Gunther and others were contacted by somebody claiming to be Cooper.

Gunther contacted the FBI and Himmelsbach.

Gunther was contacted by a "Clara" and given a narrative.

 

 

As noted by some, there has been a recent uptick in trying to discount Gunther. These people were silent on it a year ago. This group flip flops from saying it’s real but it can’t be tied to anyone, and then they claim it’s all made up, then they throw out names of who it could be. It’s coming from the JV squad and no one listens to them anyhow. When they don’t have a foothold in the case, they just pick something to complain about or someone to target like Smith, Hahneman, or Vince Peterson. None of them are deep or creative thinkers. 
 

We have DNA and it’s only a matter of time before that leads us to an individual or individuals through one to one testing or genetic genealogy. The good news is that I still have DNA left to test. I expect something solid within a year. 

The attempts to discredit Max Gunther continue, to include Nicky attempting to contact people who knew Max and his family, trying to contact his family in hopes of finding info to discredit him, as well as others claiming Max’s book was completely made up. It’s one thing when a journalist writes a book review, but when members of the public insinuate that Gunther lied, then that impacts his credibility and affects sales of his books, which affect his estate and heirs. There are three main people taking part in this hatchet job on Max’s credibility. None of whom can hold a candle to his writing success. Legal fees add up when you go after an author like that. 

22 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Why is Nicky deleting posts??

He was flip flopping on whether the money could have been spent. He was adamant for years that it couldn’t be, but as soon as he found out Smith did not live in luxury, he changed his mind. I called him out on it and he deleted the post. He’s been telling Smith’s daughter what she wants to hear. She said he never wore glasses and never walked with a limp (she was 6). Nicky responded to this with “his name should be cleared from the record”. 
 

What we are dealing with is someone who changes his theories to fit his agenda, and then acts as if this major change is due to new evidence and that it is part of good research. This method essentially allows people to pick and choose whatever theory they want that day or suspect. It’s one thing to tweak your ideas and stay within your basic principles, but to make major shifts after studying the case for years is just odd. 

I’d post this on Facebook, but Nicky is an admin and will delete it and none of the other admins will question him. 

Well, I didn’t see this one from Nicky coming. Apparently William J. Smith was afraid of heights. This one is baffling and is just one more thing to indicate how deep Nicky’s vendetta goes. 

Smith joined the Navy to fly. He volunteered for combat air crew training. He then completed Aviation Fundamentals school, then aerial gunner training and then aerial photography training. He was assigned to a Naval attack squadron and was on the aircraft carrier USS Leyte. But somehow he was too afraid to even clean the gutters on his house. 

Cooper or not, this is a great cover story for someone wanting people to not suspect you of being Cooper. Also, him having part time jobs, particularly one he got in 1980 are a good cover. Note: the Tena Bar money was found in February 1980. 

Nothing in Smith’s records indicate any issues with heights. When you’ve done what Smith did in the Navy, you don’t all of a sudden fear heights, unless maybe you’re hiding something or had some trauma related to heights. I still get a rush out of heights and I didn’t fly anywhere as much as Smith. That’s not a fear that’s a rush. 

Nicky has his enablers that don’t question a word he says, no matter how ridiculous. Jay is the main one, he claims to be a critical thinker, but he is never critical of Nicky. Nicky also has a few others who like all his posts and give him support, but will bash Eric and I. This same group will report me on Facebook and at the same time be nice to my face. 

I offered to one of Smith’s daughters to speak to her confidentially about William. What is unfortunate is that Nicky’s source chose him. Remember, Nicky is the one who pretended to be a female nurse to trick Robert Rackstraw. He’s also the one who has had three suspects and even suggested that Sheridan was tied in with Rackstraw. He also suggested strapping one of the Ingrams to a lie detector. I hope his source likes the part about him pretending to be a female nurse. 

I offered to provide his source with names of honest individuals. There are unbiased people in and out of the Vortex who would talk to the family. 

I’ll be getting a blog post out in the future that sums up what we’ve learned about Smith the past few months. All Nicky has done is successfully incited his source and helped dig a big hole when it comes to exonerating Smith. Nicky was a very poor choice for a contact. This all goes back to Vordhal for him, because he and I were fine before that. 

4 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Yes, I have been checking star notes and some others with unique numbers like repeating digits or sequences with the same premise that people would save them as collectibles...

Might consider mentioning the unique numbers as well.. 

I commented on Facebook about the notes and mentioned Nicky. He doesn’t like being called out for flip flopping on theories, so he deleted the comment. He has been adamant that the money could not be spent, and loves to quote the podcast with the money expert. At CC he referenced that podcast when asking Larry a question, but Larry basically said the money could be spent. It was embarrassing for Nicky. But now he’s singing a different tune trying to say the money was spent in order to discredit the William Smith theory. He’s completely all over the board on everything trying to push his agenda.

4 hours ago, Cola said:

-Coopers Height-

Over next 2 weeks I invite anyone who would like to contribute to help compile an exhaustive reference list on all official records and verifiable statements concerning height.

Over the next 2 weeks, I'll not respond to debate, conjecture, theory -  what have you. The recorded facts of the case are what I will specifically collect and respond to and hopefully in the end we'll all have one concise reference list.

I'll follow up late this evening with the first ref list and look to update it roughly every 3-4 days or sooner if necessary.

If this proves to be a productive exercise possibly we could organize ourselves to together attack other areas of the case in this manner.

 

One suggestion is to determine where the witnesses were at the time, their age, their height, etc. For instance, some saw him from a distance others up close. Some knew it was a hijack others not. Also look for qualifiers like tall or short or skinny or fat. Where was Cooper too? Standing sitting walking? How long did they see him and how many times? Note. Age is more relevant for determining his age not height. 

13 hours ago, Nicholas Broughton said:

She was born in Poland and it’s irrelevant… If WJS was cooper he would of died upon landing. 

The census records say differently, so even if she was born in Poland, someone thought she was born in Michigan. 
 

As for the liver deformity and its impact. Are you a doctor now? She was 6 in 1971. She remembers this? None of this was in his records. He would not have qualified for Naval aviation with this and would have had many situations in life that would have resulted in being jostled around. He worked on the railroad, he smoked, he drank. So maybe he got sick years later. Maybe he had a death wish in 1971. Use your brain. 
 

How many people die a year from parachute accidents involving this liver issue? Not skydivers, but actual hard landings in military chutes?

You’re just not a logical or critical thinker. You should focus on your personality rather than blindly regurgitating second hand information. You’re hearing what you want to hear, and frankly you are inciting your source. Your other cronies are hearing what they want to hear too. You’re severely biased as are your counterparts. Say what you want to say, but your theories carry no weight. 
 

Did he not have the brains to carry this out? Did he not have the courage? 

 

On 1/1/2024 at 7:14 PM, CooperNWO305 said:

Nicky. Can I assume you acknowledge that you got this one wrong? Did you confirm a connection to Michigan for Valeria? What about Thanksgiving 1971, was she there? It’s only 52 years ago, so should not be hard for someone to remember it in detail. 

I guess there won’t be an answer from Nicky because he realizes he’s wrong. Valeria Ostrowski is listed as being born in Michigan. This puts her as a good candidate for the entry in Gunther’s book. I was expecting Nicky to have a rebuttal from his source, but I’ve been told he was blocked. It’s still very convenient that there are no pics of Smith in 1971. 

4 hours ago, Cola said:

I think we should allow a change of mind and some evolution in our theories- conjectures. It's ok to pick a favorite candidate and work on them, use them to sharpen your critical thinking skills, and improve your understanding of the case.

Some candidates are attractive and some are repulsive. I think it takes time for a sleuth's taste to mature to a point where they can see the good from the bad. 

Years ago I would have considered candidates that were 5'6 - 5'8 . There was a time when I did not know, Coops height. I had not committed to a candidate qualifier of 5'11- 6'1.

But show me a 5'9-10 candidate that is so convincingly Cooper and I'll back off -my mind is malleable on a 6 ft height qualifier.

But try to show me a candidate that's 5'6 and this I will not accept. I think we most all agree that 5'6 is nonsense, outside of reason!!!

What do you all think, is there a difference in-classification between a Sleuth, a Researcher, an expert?

I’m not sure if you’re new to the case or just new to posting here. You may not be aware of all the background of my post. 
 

Being an “expert” and having three suspects that you’ve continuously pushed is not an evolution. Changing your views depending on the day is not critical thinking or honing your skills. A seismic shift in thinking has really not been warranted in this case since maybe the Colbert files came out. 

There have been comments about the need for a site like DZ to discuss Cooper. Since the DB Cooper Forum has basically stopped, this is the only forum available for critical discussion on the case. The FB group run by Eric has Nicky as one of its admins, and he or someone in support of him deleted a comment of mine questioning him on his stance on whether the money was spent. Nicky or someone did not like that I noted how his stance on the money being spent seems to change depending on which angle he is playing for the day. Remember, he’s the one who liked Rackstraw for Cooper, then Klansnic, then Vordahl. His excuse is that it is ok to completely change theories and suspects, even after as a so called “expert” you would think when he stood for something for years that he would have done legit research. 
 

I’ve stated to others that if you’re not vetting your theories over here on DZ, then you’re not getting the feedback that is really needed. 
 

There are very few of the original Cooper researchers posting like they used to on the Forum.

13 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I gave a lot of thought to this and ultimately they're different scenarios because the people I prosecuted or defended were actual individuals that I could speak to and who were commenting on an actual fact pattern for which I had evidence. So I'm able to impeach them or cross examine them. Can't do that with Clara. Their whole testimony isn't useless if they get a few things wrong, certainly not. And I wouldn't totally discount Clara for that, but what exactly does she get right in the book that makes it more probable than improbable that her story is true?

I've yet to see anything in the book that was something totally unknown at the time that would make us Cooper nerds go "holy shit! It must be real." I know that many people point to Elsinore, but I believe that is merely coincidental. Let's say you are writing a Cooper book and you've sent your fictional Cooper to LA. Now you have to figure out a way for him to learn about skydiving and jumping from a jet so you can get him to the mental place he needs to be to know how to do the hijack. How is he going to learn about skydiving? Well, from skydivers, of course. The location is just coincidental. The narrative is completely different from the Elsinore Ghost story as well. Ghost is already a skydiver who had possibly already made a few jumps (according to Cameron). Cotton goes to an airshow, is introduced to it by his girlfriend's brother, makes a few jumps, and instead of asking a parachute master about jumping from a jet like the Ghost, he gets his info from an airline pilot. The location is the only connection to Elsinore. That's not enough IMO. I'm not wildly impressed by the industrial chemicals bit either. That's not nothing, but it's not dispositive for me. Sidebar: Jason Langseth sold industrial chemicals for a living at the time of the hijacking. His mom's name was Clara too. 

Jude's book also has a somewhat similar scene. He had to envision a way for his paratrooper to learn to skydive and he ends up at some Canadian airfield learning about it. If Gunther or Jude didn't write a scene where their Cooper learns to skydive/freefall, that would have created a plot hole. 

So no, you don't throw out the baby with the bathwater because Clara gets stuff about the hijacking wrong, but she needs to get some things right as well. These would need to be things that weren't in the public domain at the time. For example, if she had mentioned that he left his tie on board, well, that would be something. 

Again, I'm not an expert on the Gunther stuff, so I defer to you guys in case I'm missing something. Don't mistake me having an opinion for it being a strong opinion, haha. My heels aren't dug in one way or the other with Gunther. I'm flexible. 

Cotton went to an airfield to see skydivers, an air show is different. Air shows are typically mainly airplanes, and maybe a Golden Knights type team. 
 

I’ve considered that Gunther went to LA on one of his trips and talked to some folks or even had access to some files. It’s very coincidental, but not 100% for sure Cooper was there. There are discrepancies, but the entry in the book is a lot like Elsinore. 
 

I was more interested in what you do with people/clients etc who lie. When does their testimony become useless? From all I’ve seen the past few weeks on Gunther, it seems like a small group of folks think he lied. On Discord there is a very identical post about Gunther’s get rich ideas, so I assume you and the poster agree or are even sharing notes. Nothing wrong with that. What confuses me is that I thought you said you believed it was Barb, then you mention someone well respected who may have their own candidate. I’ve heard Vordhal was Clara, Barb, Weber, someone from flight ops. Maybe more. It seems like people are waffling and are non-committal. 
 

I still think people like to discredit Gunther. It still seems like a huge effort on his part. 
 

Do you have a stance? He lied? Made up some? The hoaxer is Barb?

One major issue I have is that if there was a hoaxer, you have to explain the NYC connection. 

On 12/29/2023 at 3:30 AM, Nicholas Broughton said:

On 12/26/2023 at 2:21 PM, CooperNWO305 said:

One way Max Gunther’s book has been criticized is that Gunther got a couple of things wrong. One of the main ones is that Clara claimed the Captain came back to talk to Cooper. We know this did not happen, but we do know that Cooper did talk to the cockpit. Clara was clearly a female and talked to Gunther for the first time in 1982, and was relaying the story secondhand. It is not a big leap to think she got a few things wrong, some maybe on purpose, and certainly made up enough to throw people off about her true identity, but keeping enough to keep the story real. 
 

I have four possible hypotheses on who Clara and Dan were. 1. Max made it up. 2. It was Dan Clair and his wife. 3. It was William Smith and his wife. 4. It was Dan and William together. 
 

This little blurb about Detroit, Michigan could possibly be connected to a woman named Valeria who was buried with William and his wife. A non relative buried in the family plot would indicate a close connection. 

 

No connection to the Gunther book whatsoever. Valeria came over on the boat from Poland with WJS’s mother in law, who was 6 at the time. And Valeria was not from Detroit.  She went to NJ and settled in the Polish section of Bloomfield, along with all the other Polish immigrants that came over around the same time.    We are "family"... That is how they were raised.  

Nicky. Can I assume you acknowledge that you got this one wrong? Did you confirm a connection to Michigan for Valeria? What about Thanksgiving 1971, was she there? It’s only 52 years ago, so should not be hard for someone to remember it in detail. 

Olemiss you have a unique perspective as an attorney who has done defense and prosecution. How have you handled your clients when they lie or mislead or hold back info? How do you find the bits of truth? In court I’m assuming once someone lies, then their testimony is all useless? What if they make a mistake?  I’ve met some good liars in my life, and the best are ones who use elements of truth or use half truths. 
 

So for example. Saying the chute was red and yellow may be a lie, a mistake, maybe she was not there. How do we approach it? Same for the Captain Scott deal? As for the seat, I don’t see it in the notes. 
 

I’ll say it again so readers can be reminded. We have three essential scenarios. 1. Gunther made it up. 2. There was a Dan and Clara, but they are not Cooper. 3. There was a Dan and Clara and Dan was Cooper. If 1 is true then it is all a waste of time. If 2 is true, it is still fun to identify them. I’d even be happy and might quit if Smith’s family said “yea that sounds like something Bill would do”. 3. If 3 is true, then great. 
 

I just don’t know how we throw it all out over a few lies or mistakes. Especially seeing Clara was the one doing all the talking. We can’t even agree now on what the crew said or Cooper, etc. I’d guess the chute was not red and yellow, but who knows for sure. One chute was red. 

7 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Has anyone independently verified the Village Voice listing from 72? I've looked for a copy extensively in online archives and can't find it. 

The following is my not-so-well informed opinion about a topic of The Vortex that I've not spent much time investigating on my own. So no need for anyone to get rustled over it and I'm glad to be proven wrong about it since I admittedly haven't really researched it nearly as much as others have, specifically Dave, Marty, and Flyjack. 

1. Truth

If this book involved the real Cooper and his real girlfriend, then I think it's mostly useless in trying to determine the real Cooper. To protect his source, Gunther would have absolutely had to change certain biographical information. If she was real, Clara should have easily been identified by a number of Clark or Cowlitz County residents given the information that is in the book. Born in Longview. Had an older brother and sister. Father died in 1950. Round face and wore glasses. Attended college in her hometown. It's hard to fathom that being accurate biographical information. As for Cooper. A Canadian born American paratrooper who ran for Rutgers track after the war? That shouldn't be too hard to find. Yet none of these individuals have been found, so clearly those biographical details aren't authentic. 

This is all assuming that Clara gave Gunther accurate biographical information to begin with. If she was worried about criminal liability, then why would she give Gunther accurate biographical information about herself? So either way, be it Clara changing details to protect herself or Gunther changing details to protect his source, we have to assume that the biographical information contained in the book is a complete non-starter and mostly useless for identification purposes. 

And with complete respect to my friends who have spent years pursuing this as a lead, isn't the name Dan LeClair a total invention by Gunther? I don't proclaim to be an expert on the book, but Clara never gave Gunther Cooper's name, right? So chasing leads based on that name should also be a complete non-starter. 

So if we assume that Gunther was contacted by the real person, then the only informative aspects of the book for those of us in The Vortex are with the narrative of what occurred before and after the hijacking. 

2. Hoax

Don't have too much to say about this except that there is a well respected researcher in The Vortex who believes they may have identified the hoaxer and it's a fascinating theory. It's not my place to go into those details though. I'm sure they'll announce their findings if and when something comes of it. 

3. Fiction

I'm sure I'll catch heat for my opinion on this, but this is where I'm leaning lately. I believe it's very possible this is performance art. It's nothing new for an artist, be it an author or filmmaker, to portray something as truthful that is fictional. What immediately comes to mind is The Blair Witch Project claiming that it was "found footage". Or even the beginning of Fargo: "The following is based on true events." For those claiming Gunther was taking a professional risk, why would this be a risk if it was actually just made up? This was an individual

Additionally, I spent some time recently looking at reviews from 1986 (I found about 15) and despite what many people have claimed over the years on the forums, I found that most of the critics reviews were positive. It appeared to me that the majority of the reviews understood it to be fiction, wrapped in a rouse of truth for artistic effect. None of those who believed it was fiction attacked Gunther's reputation or anything like that, so I don't buy that narrative that he was taking a risk. The only person who claimed this was a risk was Gunther himself during the promotion of the book. To me that just seems like part of the whole "is it real or isn't it?" schtick. To use a wrestling term, Gunther was just engaging in Kayfabe. It's Gunther essentially saying "for real, this TOTALLY isn't made up by me...I mean I'm taking a risk here by believing it, so trust me."  In fact, many of the literary critics applauded Gunther for how cleverly he devised it and how expertly written it was. So I don't see any risk if it was just 100% fictional because it appears that most of his peers believe it to be fiction from the get-go. 

Concerning Gunther/Clara et al, contacting Himmelsbach...It's worth noting that we've so far not found anything in the Vault (unless Flyjack has) that indicates that the actual FBI was contacted by anyone about this. Contacting Himmelsbach, a retired FBI agent, with a falsity would not open anyone up to liability. However, contacting the FBI with a known falsehood could possibly have had criminal consequences.

I believe, if this was indeed a work of fiction, that contacting Himmelsbach was done to try and add credibility to the story by hopefully having him comment on it. There may even be evidence of this that we found in Himmy's papers that we went through last year. There was a letter from Gunther's publishing company to Himmy informing him that they were about to begin a publicity campaign for the book and that they were hoping that he would provide a comment to assist in their advertising efforts. I believe this may be the cause of Himmelsbach's particularly negative comments about Gunther and the book that he gave to reporters: I think he felt he was being used as a pawn or a tool by Gunther/the publishing company.  

Ultimately, I find the whole story to be too "cute" to be realistic. This criminal hijacker is found by a single lady and she nurses him back to health and they fall in love. Really? C'mon. That positively reeks of someone's fictional account: either Gunther's or a hoaxer's. 

I'm attaching an interesting Seattle Times review. This critic actually spent time looking for lakes and for the doctor and for anyone who might know Clara. 

SeattleTimes-Nov 21, 1985.pdf 35.41 kB · 2 downloads

Valid opinions. A lot to comment on, but I’ll keep it to just a few. 
 

The Village Voice ad is in the book? Isn’t that enough? If we were able to independently verify the ad was in the VV, how would that impact your thoughts?

Book reviews. I have not collected all of the ones I’ve seen, but to me they seem generally negative, and the more positive ones say it’s good fiction or some sort of comment like that. Not great reviews if you’re a writer. Now I can’t verify for sure that Gunther was unhappy with this, but according to Dave Lipson, a former radio host who I have been chatting with for years, he thinks Gunther was unhappy. He spoke to him a number of times. Martin actually did a podcast with him. This is one comment Dave wrote me back in February of 2020. 
 

I had several subsequent conversations with Max; one was at a book seller convention in Los Angeles. He told me that he was convinced that his phone was being tapped and that even his personal mail was being read.

Dave was under the impression that the FBI wanted more info from Max and that Max did not want to give it. Read into it how you will. 
 

In terms of the FBI being contacted by Gunther. If we found info in the files or other places that he did contact the FBI, how would this affect your thinking?

The cabin is a fantastic story. Too fantastic. Hiding out somewhere maybe, but a single woman finds a guy right after the hijacking and takes him in and marries him? I think we have to look for more concrete clues in the book. 
 

As for a new theory on the hoaxer. I’m looking forward to it. More discussion on the book is fun. 
 

One more point. On the name  In the notes Gunther says Dan Collins. I need to check and see if Paul Cotton is in the notes. In the book it is Dan LeClair and Paul Cotton  My theory is that Gunther may have gotten a potentially real name and changed it some or was keeping  it from the FBI. My main theory is that Smith wanted to use Dan Clair and may have even given that name or said LeClair. I realize some people don’t like that approach. In 1982 it would have been very hard to match up anything like we can today. We also don’t have all the notes. We may never get those. 

One thing I find interesting is that in 1982 and even today, Cooper was seen as maybe a James Bond by most. Or at least a cool dude. Sunglasses. Bomb. Daring. Master criminal. It is really not until recently and only in the Vortex that we’ve been hearing terms like homely. 
 

So, in Gunther’s book, he is self described as mousy. He just comes across as a real average guy. Seems odd to do a hoax and just claim he’s an ordinary guy. What was the motive? If you’re hoaxing and the press and public think you’re a hero, why risk Gunther turning you down for not being cool enough?

I’d love to see if we can find the ad placed by Mark Penzer. I have one I suspect, but it’s speculation.