JeffCa

pchapman

Every company says they have high drag pilot chutes. Most companies don't say anything else about their, or other companies' pilot chutes. One company owner, John Sherman, who made the comments on the video about another company's pilot chute, is more vocal about things and stirs things up. There are many including myself who disagree with some of the things he says, but he is willing to talk about things that other parachute system designers don't in public, so his opinions are worth hearing.

This is exactly what I found when I was researching which container to buy. I went to every major manufacturer's website. Only a few mentioned their reserve pilot chute. Some had no comment at all about it. Of the ones that did mention it, all but one had just a single fluff comment like, "One of the industry's strongest pilot chutes". Only one manufacturer, Jump Shack for their Racer, gave any more information. JS has some documents about their testing published for anybody to see. As for all of the other manufacturers, they made sure that colour and pinstripe options were very prominent. The worst offender was one company that, based on my observations, I'd wager sells more sport rigs than any other company. Did you know that you can now get rig X with an extra pinstripe?! Wow, we should all run out and buy it!

The research made me think that we as skydivers are not a very bright group. I'm sure the manufacturers are just giving us what we want, and we are apparently dazzled by shiny things (pinstripes and tie-dye). If we were smart enough to rebel and demand that safety information be published, we might see some progress on this.

normiss

My apologies John,
I clearly and foolishly remembered this one way off.


I still say the extra 300 ft on AAD is worth it.

Apologies to all for my horrendous memory.

I agree that an extra 300 feet is worth it. Some deployments might be delayed, but it also buys a little extra time to set up for a safe landing. I pull above 3,000 feet anyway, so a firing height of 1,000 feet should never result in a 2-out for me.

The big-man apology is appreciated. Racer didn't deserve to get that pinned on them.

normiss

It was reported that his AAD fired at it's correct altitude yet there was a delay in the reserve clearing. How is that not a fair comparison?

With Larry? You're completely incorrect, if the thread is at all accurate. I checked the thread this morning after you posted, and the report was that the cutaway was extremely low, and the AAD activated just above the ground. I assume you know that AADs have a RANGE of altitude they fire in, not just one altitude. It went through 700 feet at too low a speed to activate, then the cut happened, causing the speed to increase to activation speeds. There's no indication that his was a case of an AAD firing in the 700' range. This is what the witnesses reported. The AAD report eventually showed impact 1.5 seconds after the cut, which is WAY below 700'. Their exact determination, according to the thread and the report from Vigil that John Sherman posted, was about 220 feet for activation altitude. This is also what pchapman posted to you before I posted. The Racer reserve is not supposed to deploy in just 200 feet.

So my argument is that the following 2 things are not the same:

1. My reserve only reached line stretch because my pilot chute does not produce enough drag force to pull my reserve out of the container as fast as it should, or at all.

2. My reserve only reached line stretch because I activated it so low that despite deploying as designed, there was not enough altitude remaining.

I see your comments in Larry's thread, calling him a friend and writing that you're going to increase your AAD activation altitude, so I don't think you ever properly understood what apparently happened to him. Increasing your activation altitude will neither help you to avoid his fate, nor will it honour his memory. What will help you is what so many others here have taught me:

1. to stay altitude aware
2. to not invest your remaining time/altitude in a malfunctioning main
3. to set an audible alarm at your cutaway hard deck and to obey it (I have one at 2,000 feet and another at 1,000 feet meaning "last chance to survive, moron!")

normiss

Larry had the same belief and it failed him.

Don't put all your eggs in one manufacturer's basket.
Or container for that matter.

What does this even mean? We ALL put "all of our eggs into one manufacturer's basket". Do you know of any "combo rigs" that have systems designed by multiple container manufacturers? We ALL wear ONE manufacturer's rig when we go up there. We choose ONE container and then do the best we can with it.

normiss

It still appears to be an AAD vs. extraction force issue.
He made it to reserve line stretch.

Larry? Isn't he the guy who was witnessed cutting away extremely low? I'm sorry normiss, but do you know of a gear manufacturer that gets their reserve out no matter how low you cutaway? I know I'm new, but I don't know of any. This is a really poor argument to use, and doesn't appear to have anything at all to do with reserve extraction force. Do you know of any cases of a Racer with an AAD firing at optimum altitude and the reserve not opening? If so, please present those.

irishrigger

it was after i read John Shermans post that i started doing this test.

For all of the people who call John Sherman crazy, he has a lot of wisdom to share, and publishes it on his site. Other manufacturers either don't test these things or keep them hidden from the public because they think we're not interested (and they're right about most of us). I checked all of the major manufacturers' websites and made this thread:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4478265;search_string=reserve%20extraction%20newbie;#4478265

That's why I got myself a Racer. The reserve coming out of the container is one of the 3 things that I consider non-negotiable about a rig. My container is custom-made for my reserve size, even though I got an over-sized reserve, 30 sq. ft bigger than my main.

We have a jumper at our DZ who hasn't been around since the early-90's, and is just now back in. When he saw my rig, the only Racer on our DZ, he thumped the back and told me, "That reserve is coming out when it has to!"

Why shouldn't the test be mandatory? Assuming the reserve is being re-packed without being deployed, it would take only a few minutes, right? Might add $5 to the cost of re-pack? It could at least be done once for every container/reserve combo that you have.

Can somebody please tell me why this person has posts like this about him on this forum? I did a search and turned up this and one other warning, but no explanations. He is on my FB friends from my (brief) time at Elsinore, and is well-connected to many of my other friends.

Ron

You should look FWD to it. They can be a lot of fun.

Plus the fear of cutting away has led to people riding shit low, either into the ground, or cutting away too low to get a reserve.

Look FWD to it. The first one is almost automatic, the second fun as hell. The third, you start worrying about your crap.

After 10.... They just suck.

Ha! I predict I'll have no more than 3 in my entire skydiving career.

I still drill my procedures every day when I gear up for the first time. I really don't think I'll hesitate to cut a bad canopy. I'm usually fully open by 2,800 feet, and I have my audible set for 2,000 feet, which is my final notice to chop if I still have a problem. I plan to obey it.

DSE

***
I learned that it's easy to not pull the cutaway all the way out. I didn't, but still went far enough to release both risers. Dumb! Lesson learned, pull that sucker all the way!

Hope this helps.

Seems that I'm hearing this somewhat frequently.
Are AFFI's not teaching people to sweep their cutaway release cables?

Don't worry, DSE, mine taught me to sweep. So you don't have to go slap BW in the head or anything.... only if you want to.

JoeyH

******Where is the never cut away and boobies option!!!??!?!

That would have ruined my data. For the people who have chopped, I'm just trying to distract them.

No, It wouidn'd have ruined it. there are a lot of people who are like me and really don't care. Like I said. You gotta do what you gotta do.

I was trying to get the ones who "really don't care" to lean one way or the other. Even myself, I'm not as far into the "No" camp as you might think. There is a small part of me that wants to use what I was trained for. But overall, my feeling is no.

JoeyH

Where is the never cut away and boobies option!!!??!?!

That would have ruined my data. For the people who have chopped, I'm just trying to distract them.

I saw an internet comment by somebody who I presume is a whuffo suggesting that skydivers all look forward to the rush of our first cutaway. I thought it was a bit odd because I certainly don't (don't want to see if my rigger made a rare mistake, don't want to possibly lose my main, etc.), and recently I've heard a whole lot of bragging about how many jumps people have done without ever having to chop.

So for those of us who have never chopped, how do you feel about the prospect of it? Is anybody who looks forward to it actually doing sloppy pack jobs in the hopes that it will happen sooner?

And for those who have cutaway, I put special options in the survey just so you don't ruin my results.

Kalrigan

I'll definitely try and find used, but my time is running out. A lot of Canadians hit up Z-hills in Feb, and if I get a rig I would be able to go. Hence I'm trying to find one ASAP.

Rigging Innovations (Genera) and Jump Shack (Shadow Racer) each make a basic-options container for about $1,500. You get a container that is custom-built for your size and for your canopies, for a good price. My Shadow Racer was ready in 4 weeks. There is also the just-add-harness Javelin option on stock containers, ready in just a couple of weeks, but that will be more expensive.

thomas.n.thomas

Anyone know about running video? If I go in Summer '15, I should have enough jumps, experience, training (if all goes according to plan), but I guess I should email them to ask about the local rules.

I don't know if we have an actual policy, but we have jumpers well under 200 total jumps who have cameras. I think we even have some who are sub-100 jump.

Chelseaflies

How can I find some people to join me on my skydiving adventures!?

I take the long-term view:

1. Have children
2. Wait 18 years
3. Train them to jump
4. Jump with them

If you can't find 'em, make 'em yourself!

dvdcoon

Skydiving fees there are generally double what you would pay at Elsinore. That goes for packing and gear rental too.

Double? No way, not if you buy the 30-jump minimum! I was just at Elsinore this spring, paying $25 per jump. In Tokyo, it's $30 with the package. And gear rental is not bad either, $20 per jump. $10 for the pack, if you want it. I was paying about $7 + tip to the packers at Elsinore.

When the exchange rate was drastically different a year ago, it made the USA look much cheaper, but it still wasn't double in Tokyo. I planned my trip to Elsinore when the dollar was at 76 yen. Then it rose to about 96 yen on me before I left. I paid 25% more than I had planned to, but it also makes Japan look more attractive to jump in.

Rover

F**k it was 6500 yen a jump when I was there!

You're right, it was 6,500 yen. I just edited my post. I wasn't thinking when I wrote that. 5,000 yen is the current single-jump price. Big discount down to 3,000 yen for the 30-ticket package!

Rover

F**k it was 6500 yen a jump when I was there!

I'm told that the reason is that they bought the plane outright and don't have to pay rental for it anymore.

Rover

Did about 150 jumps there in the 90s. Bloody cold at that time of the year and if they are operating I wouldn't bother! It's expensive and a major hassle if you don't know the language.
Great people though![/cool]

The language shouldn't be a barrier. Plenty of people there are native English speakers. And of the Japanese, one tandem master worked in Australia for many years, 2 other staff are fluent in English and another is reasonably good. Some other jumpers have excellent English skills. Most of the Japanese jumpers are willing to jump with the foreigners. And also, almost every skydiving word in Japanese is just a slightly mangled version of the English.

The cost has come down since you were there. When I first visited, it used to be about 6,500 yen (~ US$65) per jump, but now it's 5,000 yen (~ US$50) and if you buy 30 or more tickets, it's only 3,000 (~ US$30) yen each. Don't forget the 30,000 yen to sign up, though. Gear rental is 2,000 yen per jump plus 1,000 yen if you want them to pack for you.

The reason you have to apply 1 week before you want to jump is because of government regulations and insurance registration.

thomas.n.thomas

I read the 6 reviews here on DZ.com - sounds like a nice spot, and I will have an opportunity to go there over the winter. My question is, who here has jumped over there, and do you think it's worth bringing your rig for only a day of jumping (maybe 2 jumps based on how busy it sounds)?

Additionally, I'm wondering what the weather will be like in late December / early January - I will be there for two weeks, not sure if it's jumpable there at that time.

Last question - what's the LZ like? I'm used to having a relatively open area to land in (nothing so enormous as Elsinore), so I'm a bit tentative about going somewhere unfamiliar where I have to land on a postage stamp.

Tokyo Skydiving Club, not Skydive Japan. I jump there. If you can pack quickly and can stay for the whole day, 4 jumps is entirely reasonable. I'm a slow packer on my new gear and go home early (bus), so I get 2-3 in a day.

We are closed because of the fatality, but the hope is to open again this weekend. I'd imagine it could be a while before you get a response, they must be backed up with stuff at the moment.

The LZ is Elsinore-shaped, but not as big. It's not as long and not as wide, but still plenty of room to land. Because it's shaped like a runway, there are only 2 directions you can land. A cross-directional landing would not be recommended or looked kindly upon by the staff.

There's a 30,000 yen (about US$300 at current rates) annual membership fee. I'm not sure if single-day jumpers need to pay it or if there's a reduced rate, but you need to apply 1 week before you want to jump.

This is my first year in the club, so I don't know about the hours or conditions in the winter holiday period.

You can ask more questions here or PM me.

I'm wondering what you mean by praising them for taking the advice, "without question" and "without justification". Can you please elaborate?

I can take advice, but I like to know WHY I'm being given that advice. If you tell me, "Exit this way", and I don't ask why, you're giving me a fish. I will know how to do that kind of exit the way that you taught me. If I ask why and you give an explanation of body position to the relative wind, and stability due to the angle of exit with other people attached to you or whatever, you're then teaching me how to fish. I can take that advice and adapt it to other kinds of exits and situations. Knowing WHY you're being told to do something is pretty important, in my opinion. I understand the "there's a time and place" argument, but from your wording I'm getting the impression that you're praising blind obedience and discouraging inquiry into the fundamentals behind it.

Or maybe I'm reading WAY too much into this.

Wow. Did ANYBODY'S head fit the G3 helmet that the chart said it would? Anybody at all?

randyb

I'm looking to buy the G3 but am a little surprised that their sizing chart puts me in an XL (measure right about 22.5" around my head just above eyebrows and ears) when every other helmet I've ever had or used has been a medium. For those that have bought these helmets, did you find the sizing chart to be fairly true to your fit?

Cookie's chart had me as XXL, but when I tried them on at my gear shop, my size was clearly L. XXL would have fallen off my head in freefall.

PixieUK

***In Tokyo, we keep our belts on until 9,000 feet.

Why? Surely even students would be fine to jump out and pull a reserve from even 2,000' in the event of an aircraft emergency?

We keep ours on until 1000', after that it's considered that most jumpers would be leaving the aircraft in the event of an emergency, not going down with it.

Don't know why, the rule was like that when I got there. I'm thinking it's less to do with emergency procedures and more to do with keeping us in place for the ride up so weight isn't shifting around and people don't fall into each other when it gets bumpy. I trained in the USA and it was 1,000 feet there, so I understand the emergency exit thinking.

obatzda

how does it work? when are u "allowed" to remove the belt? just after takeoff?

In Tokyo, we keep our belts on until 9,000 feet.