Ron 7 #26 April 9, 2004 QuoteUh, no. Some of the Category F, G, and H air skills cannot be learned in a tunnel: diving and floater exits, swoop to dock, track. OK, so 5 jumps...You need 5 two ways according to the license. QuoteThe canopy skills cannot be learned on T-10s or MC-1s. Category F, G, and H canopy work includes braked turns and approaches, reverse turns, front riser dives and spirals, and the accuracy required for an A license: 5 jumps within 20 meters of a target, without assistance. OK 5 jumps just like I had said above. QuotePacking without assistance is a Category G requirement; replacing a closing loop and doing owner maintenance on a 3-ring are Category H requirements. I know 10 year olds with no jumps that can do all that. QuoteSo if a student can do all that, why would it matter that he was wearing camouflage part of the time he was earning his license? I would not care...However he will learn NONE of those things doing SL military jumps. And thats why they should not count...They teach none of ths skills needed in SPORT parachuting QuoteA military jumper learns about equipment and equipment inspections Yeah on the wrong type of gear, And they know VERY little about gear. Thats why they have JM do J and PI. Quotethe earth as seen from above Yeah 800 feet at night. not the same thing. Quoteand about canopy motion in the air vs motion through the air. Under a round vs a square...Totally different. QuoteAnd the average airborne trooper does a very good PLF Yep, thats the ONE thing that is the same. Quote A comparison to passengers on a bus is unfair and inapt. It is completely fair. And very accurate. Military jumpers know nothing about square parachutes. A T10 you can't even turn it to change the view. You can't flair, and they know nothing about spotting. The only thing you can give them credit for is PLF's and the ability to have the balls to leave aplane in flight.... I just spent a few years jumping for Uncle Sam. And a few years teaching freefall to Military jumers...They know nothing about squares or freefall. Like I said all they know is PLF's."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #27 April 9, 2004 QuoteBut a guy with 30 military static line jumps and just passed AFF level 7 should not be quailified for an A. Doesn't matter, if he/she doesn't have the card filled out and can't do the skill, then it doesn't matter if they've got 1000 jumps. Then again, if the DZ slacks and doesn't really use the card or the ISP, just signs off on it all at the end, then who knows what we're getting. At that point, I view it as a DZ thats not doing their job!--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #28 April 9, 2004 QuoteYou need 5 two ways according to the license. Uh, no. The A license proficiency card RW requirements can be completed in 2 jumps. The number of jumps is not important, though. What is important is demonstrated skill -- this is a performance-oriented sport. After that, jump numbers and freefall time are more about FAI compatibility and bragging rights. Have equipment and procedures changed so much since I was an airborne trooper? The act of leaving an airplane in flight is unnatural for soldier and civilian, but my first sport jump was easier since I'd jumped from an airplane before. I learned in airborne school to protect my handles. I learned the importance of a gear check before leaving the airplane -- a gear check by my buddy, not the jumpmaster. I learned to check my canopy immediately after it opened, and I drilled emergency procedures. Are you saying because I didn't use sport equipment, I didn't learn anything applicable to sport parachuting? That jumps I made with a chest-mounted reserve shouldn't count because that's not sport equipment? That jumps made on round parachutes are not really skydives? That the attitudes I learned -- the value of safety, training, drill and repetition, attention to detail -- are not applicable to skydiving? Proverbs 4:7. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #29 April 9, 2004 QuoteUh, no. The A license proficiency card RW requirements can be completed in 2 jumps. They would need at least 5 jumps. QuoteA License 1. Persons holding a USPA A license may jump without supervision, pack their own main parachute, engage in basic group jumps, perform water jumps, and must have- a. completed 25 jumps b. completed all requirements listed on the USPA A License Proficiency Card c. completed five group freefall skydives involving at least two participants d. received the signature and official stamp on the USPA A License Proficiency Card or USPA A License Progression Card (ISP) Note: For USPA A-license registration purposes only, USPA Headquarters will accept either completed card signed by a USPA Instructor (signature on file at USPA Headquarters) without the official stamp. The registration fee must be included. QuoteThe number of jumps is not important, though. USPA thinks it is: QuoteA License 1. Persons holding a USPA A license may jump without supervision, pack their own main parachute, engage in basic group jumps, perform water jumps, and must have- a. completed 25 jumps b. completed all requirements listed on the USPA A License Proficiency Card c. completed five group freefall skydives involving at least two participants d. received the signature and official stamp on the USPA A License Proficiency Card or USPA A License Progression Card (ISP) Note: For USPA A-license registration purposes only, USPA Headquarters will accept either completed card signed by a USPA Instructor (signature on file at USPA Headquarters) without the official stamp. The registration fee must be included. QuoteWhat is important is demonstrated skill Yep, but the skills learned doing a mass exit at 800 feet on SL with round are TOTALLY different than freefall under a modern square, or even a SL under a modern square. Since most deaths are under canopy I don't see how you can compare a round that you can't even steer, to a square. QuoteHave equipment and procedures changed so much since I was an airborne trooper? Don't know...I only know what it was like 2 years ago. But I do know what sport parachuting has been like for the past 11 years...And in my 11 years I have found nothing new or useful in my 3 years of military jumping other than PLF's. Quoteact of leaving an airplane in flight is unnatural for soldier and civilian, but my first sport jump was easier since I'd jumped from an airplane before. And my first military jump was a joke. QuoteI learned the importance of a gear check before leaving the airplane -- a gear check by my buddy, not the jumpmaster And sport gear and military gear is totally different. QuoteI learned to check my canopy immediately after it opened, and I drilled emergency procedures. The canopies and emergency procedures are totally different...Such as not cutting away from a mal, a reserve mounted on your belly, not your back. QuoteAre you saying because I didn't use sport equipment, I didn't learn anything applicable to sport parachuting? Other than the guts to step out of a plane, getting really good at PLF's and maybe a little of the correct mindset (And I say a little since I know plenty of troopers that would NEVER sport jump...Its a job). You learned no SKILLS that are applicable to sport parachuting...And as you said its about performance, not jump number. So if the gear is so different, the performance measures so different, why should SL military jumps count? Its all about performance right? QuoteThat jumps I made with a chest-mounted reserve shouldn't count because that's not sport equipment? If it was applicable why don't we make new students do it at some time? QuoteThat jumps made on round parachutes are not really skydives? They are skydives, but the teach nothing about canopy control, and they don't fill out you beloved A card at all.. Can you make all 25 jumps under a round today and still get your license? Nope, can't do the canopy control stuff now can you? Can you learn how to use three rings with capewells? Nope. Do you learn to spot? Nope. QuoteThat the attitudes I learned -- the value of safety, training, drill and repetition, attention to detail -- are not applicable to skydiving? Attitudes yes, SKILLS no. And you said it was all about SKILLS right? And that jump #'s should not matter right? Well SL military jumps don't teach any SKILLS applicable to sport parachuting, so they should not count then right? If you want to contine this..PM me. The question asked has been answered"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #30 April 9, 2004 I stand corrected on the number of RW jumps required for an A license. I'm sorry to learn that my jumps on B4s and belly-warts didn't teach me anything about skydiving. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #31 April 9, 2004 QuoteI'm sorry to learn that my jumps on B4s and belly-warts didn't teach me anything about skydiving. I said they didn't teach you anything about modern sport skydiving....If they were still applicable we would have students jump them. As it is the only people that still jump that setup are the military type operations. My 34 Military jumps taught me nothing about skydiving...Other than PLF's and rounds suck. And you skipped this whole part: QuoteAttitudes yes, SKILLS no. And you said it was all about SKILLS right? And that jump #'s should not matter right? Well SL military jumps don't teach any SKILLS applicable to sport parachuting, so they should not count then right? So you think that only skills count and not jump #'s, but military SL have nothing in common with Modern sport jumping and gear. So why would you count them? Just to add jump #'s which you say don't matter? Military SL's don't teach ANY skills on the A card. (OK, maybe PLF's)"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #32 April 9, 2004 QuoteI said they din't teach you anything about modern sport skydiving....If they were still applicable we would ahve students jump them. I really don't agree with that line of thought. Look at other things in skydiving that really should have gone by the way-side that are still being used by students at DZs. Springloaded PCs with ripcords, round reserves, requiring a PLF on the first jump (no matter if they did it right and could have stood up)...well, the list could go on, but you see what I'm saying and I'm sure you could add to the list. QuoteAs it is the only people that still jump that setup are the military type operations. Not true, there is a thriving "vintage" crowd that still jumps them for fun.Infact, I'm probably one of the few "young'ns" that actually has packed a Para-Commander bofore because of those guys.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #33 April 9, 2004 QuoteLook at other things in skydiving that really should have gone by the way-side that are still being used by students at DZs QuoteSpringloaded PCs with ripcords They still work and are close to the same as sport gear. They are noway near the military set up. Quoteround reserves Which work very well still...a reserve saves your life, and it is better to have a round than a square ina dual out situation. Quoterequiring a PLF on the first jump Making people do a PLF can make them more likley to do it when the nee to...How many broken ankles could have been prevented? QuoteInfact, I'm probably one of the few "young'ns" that actually has packed a Para-Commander bofore because of those guys. You were also in ROTC in school....Thats kinda military like huh?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
