cliffwhite 0 #1 September 1, 2009 Dick Cheyney has recently been on the tube pissed off that the Obama administration may investigate allegations of CIA personelle torturing detainees. Do you believe that it is ok for us to torture? Do you believe that the torture provided "good" intelligence? Why or why not? Blue , Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,171 #2 September 1, 2009 I do not believe it is OK for us to torture. As a country, it generally constitutes cruel and unusual punishment, which is against the Constitution. Saying that we only torture foreign terrorists is bullshit. The preponderance of evidence indicates that torture does not get as much good quality data as more humane questioning techniques. Yes, it gets occasional evidence, but by being known to torture, we lose a whole lot more of it, so we end up losers in the long run. But mainly it's just wrong. Anyone who feels strongly enough that torture is the ONLY way to get that crucial information should be willing to take the personal consequences of using an illegal questioning technique. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cliffwhite 0 #3 September 2, 2009 QuoteI do not believe it is OK for us to torture. As a country, it generally constitutes cruel and unusual punishment, which is against the Constitution. So Wendy, Do you support the decision to investigate certain allegations against individual CIA personelle in regards to torture? If found guilty of torturing another human, what in your opinion would be a just sentence? Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bullin82 0 #4 September 2, 2009 I guess it would depend on the method being used in 2003 we often "smoked" (army term for exercize) detainees for info, basically we would make them do jumping jakes, push ups stuff like that. To people like us thats n big deal but they called it "torture" since they werent used to exercize. Stuff like waterboarding is a step up but not bad, its when you get into things that cause pain and damage to the person is when you get loads of useless info and shouldnt be used since nothing can be reliable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cliffwhite 0 #5 September 2, 2009 QuoteI guess it would depend on the method being used in 2003 we often "smoked" (army term for exercize) detainees for info, basically we would make them do jumping jakes, push ups stuff like that. When you use the term "we" are you implying that you were one of those "smok"ing the detainees? Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,171 #6 September 2, 2009 I would rather see the system investigated than the individuals (particularly low-level ones in a system where torture clearly is tolerated). Once the system is fixed, then you can point at individuals. As far as what constitutes torture, I'm not an expert. I wouldn't classify discomfort (cold, thirst, exercise -- that doesn't threaten health) as torture. I'm told waterboarding is used to show US troops what torture is like. That sounds a lot more doubtful. As soon as you start trying to define just exactly what is and what isn't torture, you're probably going against the spirit of the law. Many prisoners are, in fact, bad people. Treating them like shit because of that neither reinforces their badness, nor highlights our goodness. The idea is to prevent future bad behavior, and find out what's going on now to stop it. Revenge is not for questioners. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cliffwhite 0 #7 September 2, 2009 Quote As soon as you start trying to define just exactly what is and what isn't torture, you're probably going against the spirit of the law.Quote Wait a second Wendy, do you believe that torture isn't defrined under law? Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cliffwhite 0 #8 September 2, 2009 QuoteI guess it would depend on the method being used Stuff like waterboarding is a step up but not bad, Hey bullin 82, do you know that many US Vietnam Vets were prosecuted by our gov't for waterboarding then? If it was criminal then why do you believe it isn't criminal now? Michael Vick was convicted of the heinous crime of cruelty to animals. Are you going to stand by while humans are tortured and say nothing? Yeah.., home of the brave. Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #9 September 2, 2009 Quote Yeah.., home of the brave. Blues, Cliff Posted anonymously, Irony.MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #10 September 2, 2009 Quote Quote Yeah.., home of the brave. Blues, Cliff Posted anonymously, Irony.Matt the poster is cliffwhite stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bullin82 0 #11 September 2, 2009 Im not saying its OK to use it im just saying that there is ALOT worse things out there that people have and will more than likley continue to use. The thought and feeling of you drowning will convince you to "spill the beans" just because you think once you talk theyll stop. Again im not saying we should ever use it. Oh and yes i was there for "smoking" detainees its nothing bad it happens to ALL US soldiers you just do exersizes nothing more, you are allowed to drink water during the session so theres nothing being deprived. Honostly some of them definetly needed to do some PT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #12 September 2, 2009 If we want to say we are a great country and not just a large one we need to act like it. Not only should we investigate who was responsible for violating our constitution they should be punished with zero tolerance. Everyone involved needs to be brought to justice.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #13 September 2, 2009 I was refering to the blank profile, other wise that standard would mean, your not Kevin, your dreamdancer.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FallingOsh 0 #14 September 3, 2009 If you're going to keep up the rediculous trolling then at least learn how to use the quote button correctly. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #15 September 3, 2009 QuoteI was refering to the blank profile, other wise that standard would mean, your not Kevin, your dreamdancer. it's not up to you to decide what one puts in ones 'profile' (or complain/troll about others) (i just picked kevin at random)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
bullin82 0 #4 September 2, 2009 I guess it would depend on the method being used in 2003 we often "smoked" (army term for exercize) detainees for info, basically we would make them do jumping jakes, push ups stuff like that. To people like us thats n big deal but they called it "torture" since they werent used to exercize. Stuff like waterboarding is a step up but not bad, its when you get into things that cause pain and damage to the person is when you get loads of useless info and shouldnt be used since nothing can be reliable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cliffwhite 0 #5 September 2, 2009 QuoteI guess it would depend on the method being used in 2003 we often "smoked" (army term for exercize) detainees for info, basically we would make them do jumping jakes, push ups stuff like that. When you use the term "we" are you implying that you were one of those "smok"ing the detainees? Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,171 #6 September 2, 2009 I would rather see the system investigated than the individuals (particularly low-level ones in a system where torture clearly is tolerated). Once the system is fixed, then you can point at individuals. As far as what constitutes torture, I'm not an expert. I wouldn't classify discomfort (cold, thirst, exercise -- that doesn't threaten health) as torture. I'm told waterboarding is used to show US troops what torture is like. That sounds a lot more doubtful. As soon as you start trying to define just exactly what is and what isn't torture, you're probably going against the spirit of the law. Many prisoners are, in fact, bad people. Treating them like shit because of that neither reinforces their badness, nor highlights our goodness. The idea is to prevent future bad behavior, and find out what's going on now to stop it. Revenge is not for questioners. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cliffwhite 0 #7 September 2, 2009 Quote As soon as you start trying to define just exactly what is and what isn't torture, you're probably going against the spirit of the law.Quote Wait a second Wendy, do you believe that torture isn't defrined under law? Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cliffwhite 0 #8 September 2, 2009 QuoteI guess it would depend on the method being used Stuff like waterboarding is a step up but not bad, Hey bullin 82, do you know that many US Vietnam Vets were prosecuted by our gov't for waterboarding then? If it was criminal then why do you believe it isn't criminal now? Michael Vick was convicted of the heinous crime of cruelty to animals. Are you going to stand by while humans are tortured and say nothing? Yeah.., home of the brave. Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #9 September 2, 2009 Quote Yeah.., home of the brave. Blues, Cliff Posted anonymously, Irony.MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #10 September 2, 2009 Quote Quote Yeah.., home of the brave. Blues, Cliff Posted anonymously, Irony.Matt the poster is cliffwhite stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bullin82 0 #11 September 2, 2009 Im not saying its OK to use it im just saying that there is ALOT worse things out there that people have and will more than likley continue to use. The thought and feeling of you drowning will convince you to "spill the beans" just because you think once you talk theyll stop. Again im not saying we should ever use it. Oh and yes i was there for "smoking" detainees its nothing bad it happens to ALL US soldiers you just do exersizes nothing more, you are allowed to drink water during the session so theres nothing being deprived. Honostly some of them definetly needed to do some PT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #12 September 2, 2009 If we want to say we are a great country and not just a large one we need to act like it. Not only should we investigate who was responsible for violating our constitution they should be punished with zero tolerance. Everyone involved needs to be brought to justice.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #13 September 2, 2009 I was refering to the blank profile, other wise that standard would mean, your not Kevin, your dreamdancer.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FallingOsh 0 #14 September 3, 2009 If you're going to keep up the rediculous trolling then at least learn how to use the quote button correctly. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #15 September 3, 2009 QuoteI was refering to the blank profile, other wise that standard would mean, your not Kevin, your dreamdancer. it's not up to you to decide what one puts in ones 'profile' (or complain/troll about others) (i just picked kevin at random)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
wmw999 2,171 #6 September 2, 2009 I would rather see the system investigated than the individuals (particularly low-level ones in a system where torture clearly is tolerated). Once the system is fixed, then you can point at individuals. As far as what constitutes torture, I'm not an expert. I wouldn't classify discomfort (cold, thirst, exercise -- that doesn't threaten health) as torture. I'm told waterboarding is used to show US troops what torture is like. That sounds a lot more doubtful. As soon as you start trying to define just exactly what is and what isn't torture, you're probably going against the spirit of the law. Many prisoners are, in fact, bad people. Treating them like shit because of that neither reinforces their badness, nor highlights our goodness. The idea is to prevent future bad behavior, and find out what's going on now to stop it. Revenge is not for questioners. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cliffwhite 0 #7 September 2, 2009 Quote As soon as you start trying to define just exactly what is and what isn't torture, you're probably going against the spirit of the law.Quote Wait a second Wendy, do you believe that torture isn't defrined under law? Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cliffwhite 0 #8 September 2, 2009 QuoteI guess it would depend on the method being used Stuff like waterboarding is a step up but not bad, Hey bullin 82, do you know that many US Vietnam Vets were prosecuted by our gov't for waterboarding then? If it was criminal then why do you believe it isn't criminal now? Michael Vick was convicted of the heinous crime of cruelty to animals. Are you going to stand by while humans are tortured and say nothing? Yeah.., home of the brave. Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #9 September 2, 2009 Quote Yeah.., home of the brave. Blues, Cliff Posted anonymously, Irony.MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #10 September 2, 2009 Quote Quote Yeah.., home of the brave. Blues, Cliff Posted anonymously, Irony.Matt the poster is cliffwhite stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bullin82 0 #11 September 2, 2009 Im not saying its OK to use it im just saying that there is ALOT worse things out there that people have and will more than likley continue to use. The thought and feeling of you drowning will convince you to "spill the beans" just because you think once you talk theyll stop. Again im not saying we should ever use it. Oh and yes i was there for "smoking" detainees its nothing bad it happens to ALL US soldiers you just do exersizes nothing more, you are allowed to drink water during the session so theres nothing being deprived. Honostly some of them definetly needed to do some PT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #12 September 2, 2009 If we want to say we are a great country and not just a large one we need to act like it. Not only should we investigate who was responsible for violating our constitution they should be punished with zero tolerance. Everyone involved needs to be brought to justice.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #13 September 2, 2009 I was refering to the blank profile, other wise that standard would mean, your not Kevin, your dreamdancer.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FallingOsh 0 #14 September 3, 2009 If you're going to keep up the rediculous trolling then at least learn how to use the quote button correctly. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #15 September 3, 2009 QuoteI was refering to the blank profile, other wise that standard would mean, your not Kevin, your dreamdancer. it's not up to you to decide what one puts in ones 'profile' (or complain/troll about others) (i just picked kevin at random)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
cliffwhite 0 #8 September 2, 2009 QuoteI guess it would depend on the method being used Stuff like waterboarding is a step up but not bad, Hey bullin 82, do you know that many US Vietnam Vets were prosecuted by our gov't for waterboarding then? If it was criminal then why do you believe it isn't criminal now? Michael Vick was convicted of the heinous crime of cruelty to animals. Are you going to stand by while humans are tortured and say nothing? Yeah.., home of the brave. Blues, Cliff2muchTruth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #9 September 2, 2009 Quote Yeah.., home of the brave. Blues, Cliff Posted anonymously, Irony.MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #10 September 2, 2009 Quote Quote Yeah.., home of the brave. Blues, Cliff Posted anonymously, Irony.Matt the poster is cliffwhite stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bullin82 0 #11 September 2, 2009 Im not saying its OK to use it im just saying that there is ALOT worse things out there that people have and will more than likley continue to use. The thought and feeling of you drowning will convince you to "spill the beans" just because you think once you talk theyll stop. Again im not saying we should ever use it. Oh and yes i was there for "smoking" detainees its nothing bad it happens to ALL US soldiers you just do exersizes nothing more, you are allowed to drink water during the session so theres nothing being deprived. Honostly some of them definetly needed to do some PT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #12 September 2, 2009 If we want to say we are a great country and not just a large one we need to act like it. Not only should we investigate who was responsible for violating our constitution they should be punished with zero tolerance. Everyone involved needs to be brought to justice.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #13 September 2, 2009 I was refering to the blank profile, other wise that standard would mean, your not Kevin, your dreamdancer.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FallingOsh 0 #14 September 3, 2009 If you're going to keep up the rediculous trolling then at least learn how to use the quote button correctly. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreamdancer 0 #15 September 3, 2009 QuoteI was refering to the blank profile, other wise that standard would mean, your not Kevin, your dreamdancer. it's not up to you to decide what one puts in ones 'profile' (or complain/troll about others) (i just picked kevin at random)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
matthewcline 0 #9 September 2, 2009 Quote Yeah.., home of the brave. Blues, Cliff Posted anonymously, Irony.MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #10 September 2, 2009 Quote Quote Yeah.., home of the brave. Blues, Cliff Posted anonymously, Irony.Matt the poster is cliffwhite stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bullin82 0 #11 September 2, 2009 Im not saying its OK to use it im just saying that there is ALOT worse things out there that people have and will more than likley continue to use. The thought and feeling of you drowning will convince you to "spill the beans" just because you think once you talk theyll stop. Again im not saying we should ever use it. Oh and yes i was there for "smoking" detainees its nothing bad it happens to ALL US soldiers you just do exersizes nothing more, you are allowed to drink water during the session so theres nothing being deprived. Honostly some of them definetly needed to do some PT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #12 September 2, 2009 If we want to say we are a great country and not just a large one we need to act like it. Not only should we investigate who was responsible for violating our constitution they should be punished with zero tolerance. Everyone involved needs to be brought to justice.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #13 September 2, 2009 I was refering to the blank profile, other wise that standard would mean, your not Kevin, your dreamdancer.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallingOsh 0 #14 September 3, 2009 If you're going to keep up the rediculous trolling then at least learn how to use the quote button correctly. -------------------------------------------------- Stay positive and love your life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #15 September 3, 2009 QuoteI was refering to the blank profile, other wise that standard would mean, your not Kevin, your dreamdancer. it's not up to you to decide what one puts in ones 'profile' (or complain/troll about others) (i just picked kevin at random)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
