Waco, Texas 1993 FBI standoff [long]

[Frodo 0]

The 2+ hours long documentary was just shown on the True Stories channel. You can read the summary of the 51-day long standoff in the last part of the attached article (taken from Encarta encyclopedia).

Briefly: the Branch Davidians is a religious sect that believes in apocalypse, end of the world and all that crap. By 1993 ATF (bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms) suspected they had illegal weapons and wanted to search their HQ. But they got screwed and 4 agents were killed.

Apparently this enraged ATF and FBI (which soon took over) and made them forget a lot of the values that they are supposed to protect, because for what happened during the next 51 days I see no sane explanation.

Shots were fired by both the sect members and FBI (the latter is clearly visible on the images from an airborne infrared camera). Yet FBI kept saying that they had demonstrated "outstanding restraint" and did not fire a single shot at all!

They made holes in the buildings with tanks, and they poured CS gas into the building. Why the fuck do that, you might ask? They said, to force people's instincts to get out of the building and surrender. Instead, later autopsies showed that many of the bodies had broken bones, which happens when cyanide causes muscles to contract violently. (from what I understood, cyanide forms when CS gas is set on fire... hmmm, it's not too surprising fire did start, considering all the gunfire, is it?!) The others either burned or were shot.

The fire destroyed the whole building pretty damn soon (thanks to CS presence in large quantities). Of the many people who died there (including a lot of children who had nothing to do with the sect's beliefs!) 20+ died from gunshots.

Given all this, what do we see in the end of the investigation? A U.S. senator telling us that nothing indicates that the fire was started because of FBI's actions, and that the death of 80 (?) people was a massive suicide.

I mean, yes, they had illegal weapons, and they killed ATF agents, but look at the response... Yes the FBI were returning fire etc. etc., but look how unable they were to deal with a situation, and what a mess they made, how far from "civilized" the solution was.

Outrageous, what else can I say. Destroys most of my beliefs in the System. Duh.

[Frodo 0]

Here's a couple of links with further info. (obviously there was much more to the whole thing than I mentioned).

http://carolmoore.net/waco/waco-photos.html

http://carolmoore.net/waco/waco-articles.html

http://www.outpost-of-freedom.com/wacoind.htm

http://www.cnn.com/US/9909/10/waco.evidence/ CNN's article mentiones the pyrotechnic shells used to pour some of the gas into the building. They may well have started the fire. Of course the FBI was also denying that it had used these.

http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/history/historicdates.htm (Notice the much more important date of April 19, 1993, and the "massve suicide" of 80+ people is not mentioned.)

[Guest]

Don't forget triggerman Lon Horiuchi. He and his supervisors have blood on their hands.

At least with the post - 9/11 terrorist threat, the gov't thugs have gone back to attacking foreigners.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[akarunway 1]

Watched Ruby Ridge last nite on History channel. Same shit. Your government at work

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[base283 0]

http://www.sacredcow.com/allnew/index.php?n=waco_flaming_tank
Try this link, a vid of the bradley tanks driving around the compound with flame throwers active.
Have fun.
take care,
space

[DJL 232]

Anyone have some links to Civil Liberty groups you donate to or work with or do you just get on dz.com to badmouth your own government?

I do, for starters. http://www.sikhmediawatch.org/ to run by one of my closest friends, Preet Singh.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[TribalTalon 0]

oh give me a break. They were fundamentalist wackos anyway. They would have killed themselves before giving up. BESIDES, they COULD have just walked out of the building and surrendered.


Hey buddy, want some kool aid?

[kallend 1,651]

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oh give me a break. They were fundamentalist wackos anyway. They would have killed themselves before giving up. BESIDES, they COULD have just walked out of the building and surrendered.


Hey buddy, want some kool aid?

Have you read the Constitution of the United States, and its amendments?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[narcimund 0]

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Have you read the Constitution of the United States, and its amendments?

I believe it's now a federal crime to mention the constitution or the protections it used to provide. Please be more careful next time.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[TribalTalon 0]

uh huh... where does it say its okay to shoot at law enforcement officials. You're making those wacks out to be sweet buttery individuals, when they were anything but that.

[burbleflyer 0]

"I mean, yes, they had illegal weapons"
You realize of course that the ATF is (was) a tax collection agency under the treasury dept. They are now under Homeland Security.
Any "illegal" weapons they may have had were only illegal because of lack of payment of a $200 tax.
David Koresh was personally known by the local Sherrif, and could easily have been arrested on one of his regular trips to town.
80 people were killed over non-payment of tax and there has never been any proof that any of the weapons were illegal.
Posse Comititus(sp) was violated as well.

[DJL 232]

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uh huh... where does it say its okay to shoot at law enforcement officials. You're making those wacks out to be sweet buttery individuals, when they were anything but that.

I'm pretty sure the kids in there didn't shoot anyone. Even my mother (ATF employee) and close friend's father (ATF agent) agreed with that, as they will agree that this was improperly handled. Of course these guys weren't sweet and buttery, when put to the test they shot government officials and burned themselves alive. The issue is that it did not need to get to this point.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Kennedy 0]

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Don't forget triggerman Lon Horiuchi. He and his supervisors have blood on their hands.

Ruby Ridge, now there's a happy little story.

Every major player involved has blood on their hands, from the first Marshall incursion to the FBI deputy director to Weaver.

Jess Walter wrote probably the single most comprehensive work on the events. Titled Ruby Ridge, formerly titled Every Knee Shall Bow. A very fair account, too.

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At least with the post - 9/11 terrorist threat, the gov't thugs have gone back to attacking foreigners.

Don't be too sure about that.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

And you're acting like it's ok to lay siege to and murder civilians. You're making the government out to be blameless innocent bystanders.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kmcguffee 0]

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Don't be too sure about that.

So what are the evil "government thugs" doing to you now Kennedy?

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[Kennedy 0]

Amendment I: down
Amendment II: down
Amendment V: down
Amendment IX: down
Amendment X: down

Five down five to go.

To me specifically, taxing me out of existence, for one.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kmcguffee 0]

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Five down five to go.

That's extremely vague don't you think? Is the sky falling too?

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[Kennedy 0]

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Quote

Amendment I: down
Amendment II: down
Amendment V: down
Amendment IX: down
Amendment X: down

Five down five to go.

To me specifically, taxing me out of existence, for one.

That's extremely vague don't you think?

I - McCain-Feingold, religion in school, etc
II - don't even get me started
V - confiscation laws, Gitmo situation, etc
IX, X - expansion of federal powers daily

Quote

Is the sky falling too?

No, the sky seems to be exactly where we left it, just getting nastier to breathe.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[cloudseeker2001 0]

Yep, that is right the government at work for us. We have a family friend that was a cop over there and I have heard more behind the scenes crap than I care to think about. The funny thing, if the feds wanted David K., all they had to do was go to Pizza Hut....He ate there most every Friday night! The feds got carried away and murdered terrified people.....men, women and children-US citizens.
No power for days which means no a/c, no running water, no power for refrigerating food or medicine, military planes and helicopters 24/7, TANKS ramming the house(!) with GAS ATTACKS, loud music through pa systems 24/7, government saying one thing, the Preacher saying another, Western Geophysical came through and exploded seimographic charges for a few days around the surrounding area in order to collapse "miles" of tunnels dug for people to hide in(Have you ever heard a seismographic charge? The ones I have heard scared the hell out of me and rattled all the fillings in my teeth! And yea right, they had buried a few school busses for long term storage!) and so much more. Can you imagine how shell shocked these people were by the time the place went into flames, who were the "terrorist"? Wow, they were almost as dangerous to America as, say, you guessed it, Iraq! Anyone here ever heard G. Gordon Liddy say, "Suuuuckers"! If you get a chance or care, take a ride out there and see the area for yourself. Those people were more than unjustly murdered and all 160 of those americans(and a few foreigners) died very violent deaths. Some former members of the government, Jannet Reno for example, should be in jail right now for this.

And Ruby Ridge........ALL BREAST FEEDING MOTHERS, BEWARE OF FEDERAL SNIPERS!.......did you know the sniper who did it got off scott free? Well, you know, an order is an order and it was a target of opportunity. After all, the guy had modified a few shotguns(seems reasonable enough to murder his wife and children). Almost as dangerous as Saddam hiding in a hole in the desert. The world is a dangerous place and I am more afraid of the cops than I am of the criminals.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[cloudseeker2001 0]

when put to the test they shot government officials and burned themselves alive.

Nope, disagree. And these people were known for their arts and crafts sales and good deeds. Today a few "groups" still live in that area and have "compounds" and they live very nice and peaceful lives..........They are scared, and should be!

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[DJL 232]

They proved to the ATF that they would kill them. The ATF proved that they would go in with guns blazing. Both confirmed the fears held by the others, both were wrong. The result was a lot of innocent people being killed. This was necessary. Where are you confused?

Do your nice friendly groups have 50 cals? Why? What are you talking about?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[burbleflyer 0]

The result was a lot of innocent people being killed. This was necessary.


WTF?

[cloudseeker2001 0]

I have no idea what kinds of weapons they have, WOULD it be a crime if they did-its not against the law to own a 50cal. The ATF went in there one morning as if it were some kind of football game complete with media coverage-makes no sense to me when considering the men, women and children who made that entire compound home. The feds should have thought about it and came up with another plan. Nope, they did it Cowboy Style. Waco was an example of the Machine the feds have made themselves into and the laws do not apply to them-Gods law or the laws of human decency. Do you feel "other" methods could have been employed in order to bring a more humane ending to a bully stand off between a few radicals, innocent men women and children, and well armed Federal Military? On top of everything the survivors experienced, people who did not even fire at the feds, people who were, by the time the tanks were punching holes in the walls and injecting poison into their home, suffering and in complete shock and did not know what to do, are serving unjustly long prison terms. The government MADE Mt. Vernon a war scene, and these people had no idea what to do. I always think of that video clip of the compound were that helicopter is flying in front of the main building...........Ever seen Apocalypse Now? And I can hear the music as well and it seems quite fitting. These people needed special attention from the government, but they were terrorized and murdered instead.

"Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance,
others mean and rueful of the western dream"

[gmanpilot 0]

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The world is a dangerous place and I am more afraid of the cops than I am of the criminals.

Yes, the world IS a dangerous place, and some of us work to make it a safer place, for you and yours. You don't know much about cops or criminals. Happy Holidays.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[base283 0]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=809199;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;guest=3604406
Choose a path maybe. I see you do think they are out to get you. Ironic.
take care,
space