flipwithit

I appreciate all the feedback. Hard openings with a sabre aren't a concern to me. Long story short, never been an issue, even with small suits and slick jumps.

I guess where I'm at now, is technora just a fancy word for hma, a hma hybrid etc etc? Because it's sounding like technora vs vectran at this point.

This is my 5th sabre 1 120 (WS canopy) and first time relining one since they are harder and harder to find. Any reason to not go with vectran instead of spectra? Our lz is mostly desert style bullshit, so not considering hma.

alygator

The "redbull race"... Exit with 2 in front and 2 behind, for sure it was fair (and smart)...
Don t remember to saw production c2 in finals at WWL... Jedei, scorpion and Vrace yes. Squirrel did well too but with a prototype only for this kind of event, not a c2.
But all these suits are good now and it s mostly the pilot who made it fast or not.
Anyway, what the purpose to have the fastest if you don t race it? And if you do these races you ll have a sponsor so you ll fly his suit.

if anyone exited 2 in front and 2 behind, that was by choice, not a rule.
you think squirrel had the only prototype there? there were lots of scorpions with a lot more mylar than you receive on your doorstep! that said, my production c2 feels much more powerful than the aces c2.

if you can't fly before you buy, just know you can't really go wrong now a days. choose a suit and stick with it, because it is all pilot with a little bit of luck. just be sure the suit your buying is designed in the realm of the things you wanna do with it.

that didn't answer wasatchriders question at all...he was asking if you personally would put the p2/3 above a swift in performance.

so I've put quite a few more jumps on the canopy and my initial impressions haven't really changed. i've noticed (at 1 .4-5 loading) I'm enjoying the faster deployments. when i flare near stall, with the c2 and funk, i get a very soft snivel out of the canopy. i don't like that...just my preference. I have been getting consistent base like openings, with the epicene, while pitching in sustained max glide or a simple relaxed, neutral position. i no longer feel like i have to set my self up for a huge flare for a good deployment. just don't pitch in the middle of a top speed run, which isn't a good idea with any canopy.

in short, the finesse needed to make up for the lack of power will make you a much better pilot than power making up for lack of finesse.

every big suit has its nuances to find out, however the aura and c2 were the easiest suits I've ever adapted to and the only reason i never owned a c1 was because i had an apache x, that i didn't feel the need to sell and lose money, to get a colugo with slightly better performance. i put about 10 jumps give or take on a c1 before i made the decision to keep the apache BUT the c1 was a better suit.
does the c2 have more performance than a c1? without a doubt.
will a new to big wings pilot be able to "be there" in 100 jumps? BIG MAYBE, but what you're missing out on is not an extra 1000 dollars in performance. theres A LOT more to take in than that extra .5% of glide ratio or a slightly better turn.
starting in a wing suit that all the best used before what they are jumping now, the update is more powerful and quicker to handle, will (well should ;) ) create a more knowledgeable pilot.
just like doing 200 jumps in a p2 before a havok will more than likely make you a much better wing suit pilot than going to havok after 50 p2 jumps + 150 havok jumps, even though a lot of people are wanting to go that route these days.
if you know motorcycle racing, valentino rossi didn't go from 125's to 500. he dominated every class first. same with casey stoner and marc marquez. (tho the latter different engines, similar bullshit)

well what are the stipulations? if it was a c1 for 800 and a c2 for 1000 id buy the c2. if it s a c1 for 800 (I've seen em for cheaper,) and this is your introduction to big suits, why not a c1. save some money, put 100 or so jumps on it and by then the c3 or a2 might be out. if you bought a c1 for 750 and sold it for 500 after 100 jumps, id say thats a good deal. people are still buying up vampire 3's for 500 with 1000 jumps on the suit...

bridle is 10' from pin to PC, 28" PC. container is a odyssey NJK with standard square tray, no dynamic corners. standard 3 grommet bag with standard rubber band stows...nothing ever double stowed. i do coil about the last 2 feet into the tray and i don't rotate the bag, bridle side is facing towards the sky.

cheers

1000 wing suit jumps, give or take, on a sabre 1 120 packed into a NJK. the 150 fits PERFECT and i load it at 1.5. i packed the same way for every jump, also same pack job as the sabre 1. packed with a careless flake and a dressed center cell and 2 outer cells presented, slider even with the center cell, and about 3 twist of the tail.

every opening was on heading, every opening was very comfortable, and i was very happy with every landing, toggle response, riser response, harness response (better harness response than my sabre 1 120 at 1.8ish) and distance on landing when "swooped." noticeably less glide than the sabre 1 I'm used to BUT much better than a 120 or even 150 spectre. planing out on rear risers was predictable and easy. recovery arc is predictable but quick.

jump 1 in a funk, i took to a complete stall. the opening was super buttery and on heading. sniveled just as much as my sabre would at such low air speeds.

jumps 2-10 were in either funk or c2, i continued to increase air speed and had the exact same opening every jump. i always experienced a very comfortable sabre 1 like snivel. not a sabre 2, safire 2 or spectre etc snivel where you can look at the canopy and go wtf when are you going to open, but a gentle "stand up" followed by a couple shakes of the canopy and then a very comfortable inflation. feet never went above my head or anything like that. i don't miss my sabre 1 at all.

place rig on floor pins down
unzip the back zips of wing suit
place over rig
put leg straps through the back zips and zip up
bring top and bottom zips together with the provided bungees
open front zips
bring the suit under the main lift web and zip back together. make sure handles are outside zips.
tie upper and lower zips together
to make sure proper fitting:
put on rig and wingsuit, tighten everything down, zip everything up, except the arm wings. once everything is tight pull the suit down from the bottom of the zippers front and back and everything should move into place.

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is what I say all along! xbrace keeps more true shape, more true wing shape fly better, better fly make take off on opening like flipwithit say even though he not say is true with 5-cell. is my think 5-cell xbrace take off to and aspect ratio mean more than cells, yes?

Slater

i never said its not true with 5 cell...i said its uncommon with square canopies (okay rectangles if you want to be anal,) and the 5 cell that they are working on is very "squared off." and thats the point, is the design. without getting into a page long post, square is docile, elliptical is high performance and xbrace just makes a more rigid wing that can be loaded higher. and yes a higher wing loading is going to require more skill from the pilot for good openings. however unskilled pilots won't be flying those wing loadings, or shouldn't. people are flying semi elliptical (sabre 2) all day long with good track records. having jumped both, id put my money on the new 5 cell xbraced over a sabre 1 or 2 any day.

Most xbrace canopies (jvx, jfx, velo, xaos, etc) are a high performance design and the cross bracing makes a more rigid wing so it can be loaded higher. This 5 cell xbrace is very square (think sabre 1 square) so it won't have the tendency to take off like an elliptical but can be loaded higher and still fun to fly!

The 2 prototypes that are out floating around northern California might take some cues from the matrix but all I can say is that they are very much considering further development of those prototypes if enough interest is generated.

Definitely not :)

i fly a sabre 1, and no intentions to change that but i see more people going to 7 cells than ever....i fucking hate the snively skydiving 7 cells on the market, but if i were to get a 7 cell it would be the epicene because it isn't a typical skydiving 7 cell.

THAT SAID

icarus is deveoloping a 5 cell cross braced canopy for wingsuting and I've been trying to get my hands on one. i know there is a demo floating around. send ICARUS emails people, let them know you want a sporty yet square ws canopy. I've been trying to get one of my own for a while now. ill be more than happy to fork over 2000 for one...my $300 sabers with "less than 500 jumps" tend to blow or need a line set asap. been through a few of those.

way too much meth

jakee

Sorry dude, I mistook you for someone else. My bad.

Anyway, I'm not saying that Matt and Tony were in charge of invites, I am saying that it's not a pure cross section of the best pilots.

i agree, and quite frankly, i think wingsuit competition is a PR stunt, were not criminals for base, blah blah blah sponsors look at this (i don't have sponsors, which is why I'm sitting here being direct in such a way that would make them face palm.) but like i said in my last post, i truly believe PF is right there with the compeition when it comes to big suits. they have always dominated the havoc and smaller suits, but now they just need to work on their customer service. squirrel had inquired, received, fixed and returned my aura in the amount of time that i usually receive a return email from PF. they need to step up their customer service and i believe they will.

Bluhdow

Well, considering that there are 4 major players in the market 20% share isn't wildly off of the average.

That said, these manufacturers all take turns leapfrogging one another. Once the V-Race and V-Power get out into the world we'll see a ton of them. Then Tony will come up with something new and they'll make their way around. Then Squirrel will update it's lineup and so on and so fourth.

The question we keep asking WS manufacturers is, "What have you built for me lately?"

I think that PFs big advantage over the competition is how agile all of their suits are (excluding the Viper). To me, agility and precise flying is the number one safety feature on a suit. PF seems to do this better than anyone else.

That said, my V-Power lead time is getting longer by the second.

i only saw 3 manufacturers at the races. but like i said earlier, i grew up on PF stuff. i converted to tony because the apache x, when handled correctly, was every bit as agile as a v4 with way more range. now i fly squirrel, because the squirrels i own are way more intuitive than the tonys i owned.

this conversation is no longer about who's suit is better. they are all neck and neck with each other, no if ands or buts. if you say otherwise you haven't flown them all. this thread is about what are you going to order and why. chances are, for a consumer, its going to be the company that has the best PR and actually responds to emails.

jakee

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when the "best wing suit pilots in the world" show up at an event and 80% of them are in TS's or Squirrels....

Right... if you have an invitational event, who's inviting and who gets invited? It's not a random cross section of top level pilots.

so are you trying to tell me that tony and matt were the ones inviting people? because i know thats not the case, and that brand loyalty had nothing to do with who was there and who wasn't.

virgin-burner

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That must be why there more PF suits around than any other. Maybe the other guys should release a "total flop" maybe that would help them out Crazy

You laugh now, but Squirrel is a brand new company taking dropzones by storm. Just wait 2-3 more years - you will hardly see any PF products on the US dropzones if the pattern continues....

read my post further up!

the same thing was said when tony "attacked" with his flying matresses..

when the "best wing suit pilots in the world" show up at an event and 80% of them are in TS's or Squirrels....

im not saying PF is going anywhere. they finally have big suits that are every bit as good as the competition (original venom and viper are okay at best) but they need to up their business model now, and the consumers are making that very clear.

ifell

That almost sounds like you are saying PF are the only manufacturer ever to released a crappy suit. That must be why there more PF suits around than any other. Maybe the other guys should release a "total flop" maybe that would help them out

let me know how many PF suits you can count at the aces event...its less than 20% https://www.redbullcontentpool.com/content/international/products/perm/1405080872078-1756791967

as far as local norcal drop zones, pf logos are disappearing quick.

fwiw i started in a p2 to v4 to venom...then apache x etc etc, viper, aura and now c2. my vipers are getting turned into vampire races because I'm done trying to sell them, no one will buy them. i have no allegiance and just spew out what my experience with suits I've flown. the beautiful part is that we have 3 major companies to choose from and they are all so good that if you die, well, its your own damn fault.

ifell

...I know they may not have the best business model but they do have the best product why else would we all keep coming back?

funny thing is, PF fan boys seem to forget about the original venom and viper. venom being mediocre for its size and the viper a total flop.

also happy to dive might be a understatement. i havnt flown a (aggressive) suit that will go head down as easy as this suit. no aggressive sweeping of the arms necessary. either from an aggressive flare or a max glide flight, just point it towards the ground and off you go. no other suit has given me such a sensation...ive flown a lot of agile suits.

you think it has something to do with the 3 tail vents on the production model rather than the 1 vent on our race model?

im 100% certain i dont have the experience you or matt have in the base enviorment but i did feel more hesitation with the c2 (pre production) and dead air.