davelepka

OK, the reason that there are no retaining walls on motorcycle roadcourses (where they can help it) is so when you do high-side, you slide to a stop without hitting anything. In swooping, the ground is like an ever present retaining wall. Any mistake you make results in a blunt impact with the ground. Additionally, you are wearing far less protective gear while skydiving then racing.

The point is that while you may have confidence from your racing experience, that experience has done nothing to delevop the correct reflex type responses to situations that can occur while swooping. Nothing but experience under canopy can help to develop those reflexes. This is why newer jumper will jump at a lower wing loading. The slower canopy will give them time to react to situations and make corrections BEFORE there is an incident. This experience will build the reflexes to handle a faster canopy. Even then, smart jumpers will only jump a newer, higher performance canopy in better than average conditions, allowing them to adapt to the faster canopy with some 'best case scenario' jumps. Hopefully, by the time they need to react in order to avoid injury, they have the reflex action built in, and are used to doing things at the faster pace of the new canopy.

There was an incident a couple of months back in which a jumer about your size, and experience was jumping an eliptical canopy MUCH larger than the ones you are considering. Poor flight planning, or just bad luck put him in a position where had had to take action in order to avoid an obstacle. Under pressure, he over did the manuver, and hooked himself into the ground. Now he is dead, and he will never see his family again, and will never make another jump. His canopy was sold to him by an instructor rated jumper, who said he would be fine. Others told him he would not be fine, and, unfortunately, they were right.

Use your head. Your instructor has already approved a canopy that many here (myself included) feel is too small, and too aggressive. The canopy manufacturer also agrees that the wing loading, and planform is not appropriate for your experience (according to their reccomendations). You mentioned some PD canopies. Call them up and see if they will send you a demo with your experience at the wing loading you are looking at. THE ANSWER WILL BE NO. FOR A REASON.

You can look around untill you find someone who thinks what you are doing is OK, even though many are telling you it's not. I would venture a guess that if you end up in the hospital, the person who told you it would be OK will not show up for a visit. It always works that way. I wonder why?

Lets be fair. He's only got 60 jumps, but he's been racing motorcycles for EIGHT years. Thats got to be the equvilant of at least 4 skydives, maybe 5.

Seriously, as far as productive comments go, there are very few that most aren't already thinking. Yes his wing loading is too high, and his canopy choice is poor for his experience level. Furthermore, his confidence will do him more harm than good. While the jumper himself probably won't listen to any advice, others can use this scenario as an indicator of what not to do, and how not to act.

I wonder if he knows that a poorly executed 90 degree front riser hook (a fairly mild maunver by modern swooping standards) would be MUCH worse than a high-side coming into a 90 MPH corner on a race bike?

First off, check for a built in turn at altitude. Point your canopy into the wind, go to full flight and see what happens. If it won't go straight, have a more expereinced jumper take it up to confirm, and give you some more in depth info (is it a climbing or diving turn? Is it a control line or suspension line problem?).

If it goes straight at altitude, you may have been off of the windline on your final. The wind won't always line up with the ideal landing coridor, but if it's close, many poelpe will use the most accessible (free of obstacles up and down wind) corridor. Additionally, the wind can shift slightly while you are climbing to altitude, or while you are under canopy, again, putting off of the wind line when you follow your flight plan. A slight correction opposite to the drift will have crabbing along your intened corridor. At this point you should be selecting a landing area that allows for drift or over/under shooting anyway, so this shouldn't pose a safety issue.

The amount of drit may seem considerable at first, but if you factor in your altittude when you turm to final, and the lower wing loading of your canopy, you spend alot of time on your final approach, and have a long exposure to whatever is causing the drift.

800 ft with a Fox 205 free packed into a skydiving rig. I did several jumps like this, always taking a 5 or 6 sec delay. I did a back loop on one of them.


With a Stiletto, maybe 1500 ft, clear and pull.

There was a time when the most accurate altimeter was an Altimaster II, and most swoops were done from under 500 ft (before the x-braced canopies, Excalibur not included). If you couldn't do it by sight, you couldn't do it at all.

If you're not prepared to teach swooping, fine, but at the same time, don't stand by and judge them.

I really hope you were not being literal about popping someone's reserve. That's overstepping several boundries, and it just ain't right.

***but simply wearing a camera during freefall, without concentrating at all on filming,
--------------------------------------------------

This is far easier said than done. The camera will always provide an additional distraction in the plane. Focusing atttention toward making sure the camera is on and ready will subtract from the time you need to check your gear, and keep a keen eye out for gear problems with other jumpers. These are habits you need to develop in order to be a safe skydiver, and adding other tasks will impede this process.

In freefall, you may be able to not think about the camera for a jump or two, but after reviewing the video, you will be hard pressed not to analyze, and think of ways to improve the quality of your next video (which in turn will have you thinking about your camera flying performance, both in the plane and in freefall, whcih again will take away from the time you need to be focusing on developing good habits and safe procedures).

The size of the camera is not related to the size of the distraction it will provide.

***concentrating more on accuracy then swooping since i want to eventually switch over to base. I'm a VERY poor college boy, so basically once i get a canopy, thats it,
=====================

Don't buy a Spectre 170 then. That wingloading is a little high for a first canopy anyway, and it's waaaaay too high for BASE.

If you are poor, and want to BASE, look for a used F-111 7 cell. It will be close to what you will use for BASE, and should be extra cheap.

I'll use a braked approach to the turn point (or close to it) then go to full flight, and enter my turn while the canopy is in it's recovery dive from the braked configuration.

I'll do this for two reasons; first, it slows your speed in the pattern, and gives you the most time to set up and scan for / avoid traffic. Second, it builds a little extra speed before you enter your turn, which I think carries over into the swoop (even if it doesn't, it makes it more fun).

If I have a clear sky (as in all other jumpers have already landed), I'll fly the approach in full flight, get to my trun point early, and toggle 90 degress right, then ride that extra speed into whatever turn I'm doing (180, 270, etc.)

Again, I don't compete, so I don't know if any of these ideas translate into faster or longer swoops, but I'm happy with the results, and it keeps me entertained (especially the 90 right to 270 left move).

***Check the BASE forums for real info on lineovers.

---------------------------------------------------

Check the BASE forum and you can watch a video of the moderator using a hook knife to clear a line over after a jump from a cliff. Nuff' said.

I know a guy who sent his rig to Mirage for some work, and they lost it.

They did, however, send him a replacement.

***Diablopilot chimed in with a brief, non-constructive, contrarian viewpoint. Of course, backing that up with a subsequent post quoting dictionary definitions (insulting the intelligence of the reader) didn't help to point things back towards consructive-ville either.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your post was in fact both brief and contrarian. It is my opinion that it was not constructive.

Your follow up post did in fact contain a dictionary definition and it did insult the intelligence of the reader. Again my opinion is that this was also not consructive.

Considering the subject of the thread, your contribution added nothing. It simply stated that you didn't agree with the poster, but gave no reasoning or explanation (which would have constructive).


In your current post, you stated your opinion, and backed it up with sound logic. It was constructive, and the younger jumpers you are concerned for could actually walk away with some good information.

This is the information you should have posted in the first place.

In all fairness to Alan, he posed a reasonable question about the contradiction between this thread and another which indicated using an Alti for swoop altitudes was a bad idea.


Diablopilot chimed in with a brief, non-constructive, contrarian viewpoint. Of course, backing that up with a subsequent post quoting dictionary definitions (insulting the intelligence of the reader) didn't help to point things back towards consructive-ville either.

I'm not saying Alan didn't fan the flames in the aftermath, but I think he started off with good intentions.

His experience and canopy shouldn't be a factor, as you don't know how many jumps he has on that canopy. When I first jumped a Velocity, I had 2000 snapping 180's on a Stiletto, and needed an alti to help me adjust to a carving 270 from 800 ft.

You did have a good thread going. As far as using Alti's goes, hey, whatever works. Plenty of guys wrote in saying they use them (becasue they wrote, it must be working, they're still alive). I never considered using one when I was first learing to swoop (I don't think anyone was at the time), but times change, canopies change, and swooping has certainly changed. To each his own.

The title of the thread, and the question being asked is in regards to turns made when low. Every jumper should feel free to experiment will all of thier control inputs at a safe altitude.

In regards to your rear riser turns on opening, this is an excellent habit, and will help you to avoid canopy collisions after opening. However, it does little to help you establish you canopy's rear riser response in regards to low turns as your brakes are still stowed when you do this after opening, and your brakes would not be stowed when using this manuver as an obstacle avoidance tool just before landing.

Your 'what if' situation regarding a low opening, where you wouldn't have time to grab your toggles, any opening that low should have been made on your reserve, at which point the finer points of your main canopy's flight characteristics would be irrelevant.

Practice and use the PLF. It works.

On the day you want to jump, try spending some extra time discussing canopy control with your instructor. Watch a couple of loads land with him, and discuss the different approaches. Make up a written flight plan using altitudes and landmarks, then follow that plan under canopy. Write in on the back of your hand if you have to.

Ditto your whole post.


I have ordered three suits from them, and they all arrived in 10 days or less (I did pay the rush, but still). One suit has 500+ jump with no repairs needed. Another one has over 1000 jumps. I wear this suit on every jump, pack in it, and don't really take good care of it, and no repairs needed. The third suit is newer, but I expect the same from it.

You will never go wrong dealing with those people.

***both a canopy class and tunnel time


Well, yeah, that would work too.


Leave it up to me to ignore the obvious.

Your cash would be better spent on continuing your canopy education. flying and landing your parachute are the areas where you are most likely to be injured. At this stage of the game, skill in freefall should be taking a back seat to something which can affect your health and well-being. Your freefal skills will do you no good if you are injured in the process of landing your canopy. Current canopy training in the A lisence program leaves alot to be desired. Remember, even a sprained ankle will ground you for six weeks.

It's early in your jumping carrer, be smart and give yourself a solid base to work from to keep you jumping safely for years to come.

First off, to do a flat rear riser turn, you have to grab both rear risers, and in doing so, you will have to put your canopy into full flight (by reaching up to grab the risers). This is a problem because if you are low, and need to do a flat turn, you should already be in brakes entering the turn, and if you are, reaching up for your risers will cause your canopy to dive (as you let up on the toggles).

Second, after you have made an emergency flat turn on risers, you have to transition to toggles to flare, which will use up time and altitude you don't have. Yes, you can flare with the rear risers, but it's not reccomended if your toggles are available. Many experienced jumpers will use the rear risers to flare, but that would not be in an emergency situation if the toggles were available (available as in not tied in knots around your slider, or not stuffed down your jumpsuit after a steering line snapped).

The toggles are the way to go. Thay are already in your hands, and when you come out of your turn, you are already halfway through your flare.

A word on flat turns. Reserve their usage for avoiding obstacles (other jumpers included). A downwind or crosswind landing is a better choice than a flat turn if you are simply wanting to get back into the wind after a poorly planned canopy flight or during an off field landing. A good, full flare, followed by a PLF will allow you to easily handle a down/cross wind landing. A botched flat turn can injure or kill you. So if you have a clear space in front of you, land there, and only if a collision is iminent, use the flat trun, and even then, keep the degree of the turn to the minnimun needed to avoid that collision.

Your car vs reserve argument aside, why would it be a problem if your canopy was constructed off shore?

They are using the same material, thread, and sewing machines they would use in the states, There is no reason that peoples from other countries cannot learn to sew.

Furthermore, your desicion to purchase a reserve is based upon your opinion that the company will build a safe and functional product. Considering that this product is a life saving device, and that we are not dealing with a mega-corporation, where profit motives could interfere with responsibility to customers, why wouldn't your trust in this company extend to letting them deciede the best way (or place) to assemble a canopy?

You need to be able to 'just turn' before you can helicopter. Work on controlled turns at a steady pace. Once you have that, slowly introduce some speed.

A helicopter like Eli from the flyboys is different than a fast turn. It's a dedicated body position thats really not good for anything else. If you watch him on video, you'll never see him use that body position for simple turns. In fact you really don't see much body movement at all when he does a regular turn, he seems to 'just turn'. Go figure.

Don't base downsizing on jump numbers you don't have yet. Do another 100 jumps and evaluate your skills at that time, and base your downsizing, if at all, on that information.

I see you jump in Deland. Have someone from PD jump it to see if anything unusual is happening (I doubt it).

If you really want to speed it up, ask PD for a smaller slider.

Keep the old one though, you'll want it back eventaully.

Consider this, how much time did you spend on your last ride to altitude checking your camera settings? How much time did you spend in freefall looking for the perfect shot, or just getting your subjects in the sight? How about during your last opening, were you thinking about the position of your camera in relation to your risers? Or during your last malfunction, were you keeping your camera gear clear of your departing main and deploying freebag?

I'm guessing from your post that you do not shoot video now, so the answers to the above are probably all 'none' or 'zero'. To be safe for yourself and others, you need to be able to perfrom the above tasks AND do everyting you are already doing on your skydives (maybe more depending your experience level).

Many people (usually those with little or no camera experience) will try to minnimize how big of a distraction a camera can be. Camera flyers with experience will tell you that it takes a HUGE chunk of your brain to shoot good video, and unless you can skydive on autopilot, you need that part of your brain just to make it down safely.

***people that are bored under canopy fly stupid, they sashay around, spiral over the spectator area, do quick 360,s and basically just make it harder for me (The HP Pilot) to find a safe landing pattern. I sometime wish these jumpers with the big canopies playing stupidly over the landing area could take a ride under my canopy to understand why it is important to fly predictably,
===================================


Low canopy has the right of way. If you are swooping a 96, most canopies will be lower than you. There's more to flying a HP canopy than turning and flaring. It's having the foresight to monitor traffic, have a plan (and a back up) and be ready for it to all change at the last minute.

To compare to your motorcycle situation, if you make a mistake on the bike, you can always run form the cops. If you make a mistake on your canopy, you can't run from gravity.

Maybe you should consider that many of the people commenting on your situation have more jumps and more years in this than you. What does that mean? When I had 600 jumps, I was swooping a Sabre 107 (HP at the time) and thought I was knowledgeable, and in control. Years, and 1000's of jumps later, I can look back and see all that I didn't know. For than matter, I can look back at myself one year ago, and realize what I learned this past season. You can't look into the furture and see what you will learn, but if enough people who are there now, are telling you that you might be a little off in your thinking, why do you have so much trouble accepting that their point of view has validity.

I have seen the know-it-alls come and go. Some by their own choice, others forced out due to life altering injury. Are you one them? I don't know. Are you on your to becoming one of them? Possibly.

Good luck and safe swoops.

Quote

I am proud father and I recently sold my R1 because I found myself getting board of it. Every ride seemed to end up in being chased by the police and I know at 250 - 300kms/hr
================================

I would question your desicion making process in any area after reading this statement. As a father, why would you put yourself in that position?

I'm sorry but I havn't found a canopy that I would be happy with for 500 or 1000 jumps.
==================================

After putting 2000+ jumps on the same model canopy, I can tell you that your statement is the result of a lack of expereince, and a lack of understanding of the potential of a modern HP canopy. With the ever changing wind and weather conditions, it takes 1000 jumps at a variety of DZ's in a variety of weather to really know your canopy. Your line of thinking is not right, and poor desicion making such as this has lead to many serious injuries and fatalities. Your canopy is there to save your life, entertaining you is a secondary function. By putting one before the other you are putting your safety at risk.