Vins

I'm sorry for my comprehension of english. But one thing I have undertood, you are impolite. You don't need to be impolite to persuade someone about your ideas. Your ideas only should persuade us, but you don't seem to be able because your topics are full of bad words, and therefore your words are full of nothing. I partecipate in many forums and I've never seen a moderator that needs to be moderate. I think as moderator you have failed. Please leave your title and give it who is able to do this job. Or is your language considered as "normal" in your country? It depends on my comprehention?

You fly with wings, sure that you can fly with atmonauts, but it doesn't means nothing about atmonauti. It's not the game wingsuit VS atmo. Take a breath an repeat

I guess the theory is, if people keep saying it, one day it must be true. What a joke. Hey Jp, I like this joke so much! wanna joke with me? In wikipedia it's write that you have invented Atmonauti... umm... ??? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmonauti You are very fun and beleve me, I like you. For this reason I want to play a game with you! Regarding your post above, effectively, saying Tiezzi is the inventor of angled flight, today many people think that it's true. Marco told me as he descovered occasionally the angles and he presented this technique for the first time and as he teached this technique to many professionals as Babylon and many others and now, saying any day this story I believe it. Do you really think that isn't true? What do you think about this story? Have you the proof that you did Atmonauti before Marco? Please help me!

I appreciate your ask "who cares". In fact I think there is in the world only a man who cares about the discover of angled flight: Marco Tiezzi that affirm to be the inventor. Ok, it could be not true, but this is a sufficient reason for Marco, Gi and friends to ask "who did"? It's only a simple question that requires a simple answer. Why to answer with the invention of the weel or skateboard? Who really cares? Regarding the angle, do you know who did? Tell me, please. Don't you know? Thanks for your intersting. Can you debate about the document I share? Yes? I'll glide to debate. You can't? Let's show the history. Am I too serious for you? I'm sorry, I'll try to change myself.

No dude, I mean Marco Tiezzi was the first human that one day, searching to improve his traking to be more efficient, occasionally he descovered the angled flight. He practiced in secret per years (1998-2000) this technique with Gigliola Borgnis and Marco Manna and then, when he fell ready, presented this discover in world wide. Finally Marco and Gi teached Atmonauti to many professionals as FlyBoyz, Babylon, etc. He wrote this story in all details in a long article publicated on 2000 in Paramag and Spazio Verticale. He wrote as he descover de angle, he wrote as he teached it to his friend. Easy and simple to understand. No one wrote something different or debated this statement. I think, once again, that you talk for yourself. Let's talk these professionals and don't let your supposition talking for them.

You would try to convince skydivers of South Africa that, since this year, they will precties Atmonauti as separate discipline (they will do Atmonauti in the Nationals) and they will teach to beginners a new kind of progression in skydiving, with licences, and it's called Atmonauti. I repeat, atmo was presented for the first time by Tiezzi and teached to the professionals at that time, they became indipendent in angled flight before 2004. It's write in the history. Why this technique shouldn't be something different to Freefly? Who can decided what's this? Tiezzi I think. And have you asked him what's he thinks about his discover? You would ask. For sure I have respect for Freefly but I'm not feel to be a Freeflyer because I'm not able. I'm able to do Atmonauti and I do this only. Saying I do freefly it's to say nothing about what I do. For this reason I desagree with the claim that it's all Freefly.

Who wrote this story on Wikipedia? Marco Tiezzi? I don't think so. You JP? Maybe Andy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmonauti I don't know, but I think someone does't respect the hard work of certain people. I'ts easy and very fun to joke with the work of others. Ok, I want to play this game...

With all respect for Freefly, I think Freefly is Freefly, Freestyle is Freestyle, Skysurf is Skysurf, Relative Work is Relative Work, Atmonauti is Atmonauti. Why exists many disiplines if are the same things? At the beginning Freefly was only head down and sitfly. Than tracking jumps bacame Freefly, then angled flight (that at the beginning was called Atmonauti only) became Freefly, than belly jumps became Freefly and tomorrow will be the same for the new stuffs. For me the problem isn't that all it's called Freefly but to think that it's all Freefly is a brake for the evolution. Infact if I want promote Atmonauti as discipline, someone want stop me because it's only Freefly. I'm not agree. This definition is absolutly autoreferenced and if one tell me that does Freefly, believe me, I don't know what's he does! In South Africa Atmonauti is a separate disipline officially recognized and this year they'll dispute atmo in the Nationals. For this reason Marco Ciocca (South African) have opened many topics about this discipline. If you like or not in his country that is, a discipline and for him it's normal to debate this argument, to diffuse the correct informations, to explane all about safety, training, rules, games, as any people do for own favourite discipline. In Italy (my country) the debate is hot and in a poll on Paracadutismo.it (the most popular italian website), skydivers have voted pro-discipline. But some people say it's non necessary. Sure, it's Freefly. Many thanks guys! The mentality that any stuff that exits from an airplane is Freefly stops the evolution, not the opposit. I'd like you see a video of experimental Atmo-Relative-Work. You can see docks, star and flower formations exits directly from airplane in grips and fly in the angle (never seen before): http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=GH3CruRP-yM http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=xib_0k5CrSM We do in home DZ of Marco ang Gi (in Italy) ARW2-4 as local/social event. Why can't I disput Atmonauti as regular disipline with sponsors, articles in magazines, etc? Because it's only Frefly? Let me say once again, I'm not agree. Vins

I think your affermation (and not only your, I know) represent a paradox and I would try to explane why. Yes, I know that Atmonauti was a move used in freestyle competition as I know that it was happend after years that Marco Tiezzi and Gigliola Borgnis was presented the Atmo-Freestyle at Eloy in the FreeFly Festival on 2000, technique colled Atmonauti by themselfs at that time. They won a prize by the film edited by Tiezzi that showed a "new" stuff that flown in angle, never seen before, and in a Freestyle competition. On 2003, after 3 years that Marco and Gi did and showed angled flights, FAI described for the first time the definitions of angles and the manouvers in angled Freestyle. The angled flight was entered officially in the history and it was called... Atmonauti! Please, read Addendum B-6: http://www.fai.org/parachuting/system/files/artistic_adb_2007.pdf For few years Marco and Gi had teached this innovative technique to their friends, Babylon, Flyboz, and many others. Those professionals, that never flown in angle before (never seen), have recorded own first record in angled flight when they joined to X-Team on 2003-2004 in Perris. Please, see here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3139737#3139737 On www.atmonauti.com these records was presented as Atmo-records, nobody of the X-Team component have NEVER debated these facts and so I think your opinion about the re-invention of the weel, it's your responsability against the hystory. In that occasion the components of X-Team have learnt the technique directly fron the inventor. Today many poeple say that the angled flight was precticed from long time before 2000, but I've never seen nothing about it, done by other people at that time. I have made personal reserches and I saw many magazines, DVD and VHS, I'm sure that before 2000 there's nothing that looks like angles (except what Marco have done in secret from 1998). Before 2000 the angled flight didn't exists! You can find few stuff of my reserches here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3140560#3140560 Instead, I have a lot of articles took from Paramag and other magazine in wich Atmonauti (angled flight) was presented for the first time as an invention by Tiezzi, the only promoter until 2004, as showed in DVD and magazines. While the magazines often showed the progression of Marco and Gi in angled fligh, the same magazines showed the firsts angled flight of other people after 2004. Today there are many definitions of Atmonauti / Tracking Jumps / Angled Flight. But for what I have explaned above, as any evolution of Free Fly is always Free Fly, for the same reason, for me, any "different type" of angled flight practiced, is always ATMONAUTI! Do you have some proof that angled flight was invented / discovered / presented / promoted by some other people that wasn't Marco Tiezzi and before 2000? Who, when, how? Do you have, date, magazines, events, video, foto, frame, referenced documents? Let me know, please. Do you think I'm joke yet? Vins

For many people it's only a sport. Yes I know. But not for me. For me it's more than sport, more than a experience. It's something that changed my life. It's something that I feel indeep, in my bones, in my blood, in my mind, in my spirit, in my friends. If this it's only a sport it won't find a very evolution. Why do I think so? Because flying it's an intinct... Difficult to explane as easy to feel. When we'll stop to think that it's only a sport, we'll set free our soul, the most ancient dream will came true and we'll just fly. I'm romantic or emotional? Yes I am. For this reason nobody can destroy my dreams...

Hello solovinofly! I like so much your nick because in italian it means onlywinefly (but maybe you know) and I invite you to came in Italy to discover booth things that my country produces and export in world wide: good wine and the biggest way to fly, invented by Marco Tiezzi. But not only, the are also beautifull girls... (not invented by Marco I mean, I hope so!) You wrote interestig argument to debate but I think those arument are already debated in this thread an for this reason, in order to don't repeat the same things to infinte, I invite you to read and pay attention in particular all posted by fedykin the most afflilate to this discussion (but unfortunately he left this discussion as I posted some referenced data). You'll find all answers. Infact fedykin have already wrote many things similar to your post (e.g. about the canopy that for fedykin doesn't realy fly) and I haven't found nothing to original to discuss.

I would post an importan, the most important, argument about safety in angled flight, the first thing that Tiezzi teach to biginners. This argument is important, overall, considering that Atmonauti are confused with tracking jumps. In a traditional tracking Jump the look is forward, but in Atmonauti is toward the ground. Is important to know this to mantain the awareness of direction. -------------------- Basic Rule of the Atmonaut Fly - THE DIRECTION The Atmonaut fly implies navigations with lots of horizontal travels, therefore the activity of the atmonauti is to be considered more similar to the one done by the airplane pilots during all their phases. For this reason is important that the complete formation of the atmonauti must be very similar to the one of the pilots, including the research of the precision that they have, in respecting rules and parameters. The most important parameter in the Atmo flights is indeed the DIRECTION , strictly connected with the SAFETY. Before every flight, a "flight plan" must be anticipate, coordinated with : the dropping system from the plane , wind condition at each altitude, the visibility, and with eventual other groups navigating on the same plane. The knowledge and the experience of the atmonauti is particularly keen on the research of the precision as a fundamental condition to guarantee at maximum the own safety and of the other groups. At this point I want to highlight to everyone that for the first time get in touch with this new technique, on a very important factor that is necessary to know: Since it has been taught in the AFF, and in the normal tracking jumps that have always been done (where you follow a leader or rabbit), the track is performed looking in front in the direction towards you are going! In the atmonauti fly , flying in front, the body assume an angle of attack with the head placed towards the ground and the visual looking backwards. This creates a prospective of the visual that is upside down (sky down and earth up) and a vision of the field exactly OPPOSITE of the direction where we are going. And more angles of asset we assume, more opposite and far will be in prospective the visual of the ground. This condition, especially for the beginners, can create a bit of difficulties on orienteering, in particular if you are not informed on this problematic, and if you don't take other visual points of reference in order to guarantee the respect of the direction. Is important to remember the dangers of groups that can involuntary change flight trajectories towards other group. Is for this reason that we are particularly sensible to do not mix track with the atmonauti fly. Encourage people to be more efficient by adding "angles" and with the head that watch behind (and who doesn't want to be more efficient), saying that this technique is tracking, and without saying as the first thing "be careful to the visual of the opposite verse in which you are going", is really incorrect and create a potential condition of danger. To confuse the track with atmonauti without emphasize this fundamental aspect is a grave mistake for which one should take the responsibility of a confuse and incomplete information! I invite to reflect about this point. Since 2000 when I wrote the first articles, I emphasis this problematic as a primary condition to keep in mind! In all these following years in which many persons have applied the atmo technique but calling it in other names, I have never read anything from these persons on this important information. In a phase like today, in which we can watch videos, many people in the world today fly atmonauti, creating a sort of traffic of trajectories, we invite everyone to reflect on the importance to apply integrally the atmonauti system, that consist of being familiar with these problematic and the research of the total precision. The system imply also that in every atmo flight, there is a "navigator", a person who is responsible to keep the flight plan, respects the directions planned, linear or not, set the angle or the angles of flight, regulate the speed. He is responsible for all the group and is primarily in charge to set these parameters, and above all to be concentrate to respect the direction. No matter if the group is of two or twenty people, there is always a person with this duty and responsibility. The atmonauti Fly as we know, has many variation and have many different typologies of performance and games, from freestyle to formations, atmo games (Race, ARW, etc), Airshow with smoke … In all these circumstances it's fundamental the issue of the direction. But is in the smaller group with acrobatic atmo games of freestyle and freefly, or in ARW2 or ARW4 (atmo relative work in 2 or 4 way), that is more important to pay attention to the direction ! In effect being more focused in the performance is easier to distract and change direction without realize, especially in the first training jumps. Try always to keep in mind this factor. With experience and constant attention on this particular, the precision of the navigation will be always more fine, until arrive to be more and more an automatism. Some practical advises: Exit order - exit as a first group with a short in spot: only if the navigator is expert and can guarantee safely the direction, after the exit the trajectory of the direction will be opened with a minimum of 45° (right or left) respect the axe of dropping. Is not admitted an involuntary change of direction towards the axe of dropping of the other vertical groups. - Exit as the last group: is the more safety condition, especially to start with and when you don't have much experience yet. After the exit it will be performed a turn of max 135° (right or left), paying attention to do not come back on the dropping axe. Or after the exit make a 90° (right or left) and through the dive, make another 90° in the same direction (right if the first turn was right, left if the first turn was left). - Exit as an intermediate group: make a clear 90° (right or left) right after the exit respect the axe of dropping. If during the flight you go away too much respect the dz, make and ulterior 90° (right or left). Is important to have a previous briefing with the plane pilot, in order to know the daily axe of dropping in relation of altitude winds/dropzone policy and to be informed if this will be changed. In any case the visual contact with the ground is the primary condition to respect the flight plan, and the support of the gps can add useful information to manage the flight in case of clouds/covers. If for any reason during the flight you find yourself with a lot of distance in relation of the landing area, open the canopy at higher altitudes in order to be able to come back or anyway have more time to evaluate alternative safety landing areas . Valuation of the wind on the ground, in order to calculate the more indicate place where to be with the canopy open and be able to get back easily to the landing area. If other groups are making navigations, coordinate the different directions taking into consideration also the direction and intensity of the wind from open canopy till the landing. Valuation of the wind at the different altitudes to evaluate also the lateral transition of the group in vertical freefall (for example take into consideration that a rw formation slides much more than a vertical freefly formation). Valuation of the visibility with the ground to decide, on the base of the navigator's experience, if the parameters of the direction can be respected safely. The use of gps to assist the navigation: during the climb to altitude in the plane, to know in relation of the ground speed of the plane, the direction and intensity of the wind at different heights; to have the direction and distance from the spot during the exit from the plane and during the flight (even when in not visual contact with the ground); to help the navigation under open canopy in case an unattended low clouds coverage . To know the ground conformation and have points of references in the various cardinal points, as an aid to the navigation, keeping into consideration that the visuals of the navigator is opposite to the sense of flight. Ground coordination with the other group before get on the plane : "flight plan"! Check at open canopy and debriefing (also with the analysis of the gps traces), on the effective respect of the flight plan, finding the factors that can be make the navigation better and always more precise. Anyone that has any doubt or questions to make on these topic, is welcome in this space for more explanations. Pay attention to the visual and consequently to the direction, and good atmosphere navigation to everyone .

Since 2000, when the angled flight was presented for the first time by the inventor Marco Tiezzi, many people had claimed that other people was the inventors. Today this technique knows several definition and more than one father, like JP Furnari e.g. Today the angled flight are promoted in very different way, unfortunately with many mistakes about safety. For this reason Marco Ciocca has opened this discussion, in order to promote and diffuse Atmonauti in the ONLY right way, how Tiezzi teachs and as in the past he tached to many professionals. This forum is the most important and read forum in the world and it's right that, who have heard a lot of imprecisions, can find here the explenation of the right way to do Atmonauti (angled flight) directly from Tiezzi and the Atmonauti-Instructors. Are you who invented the angled flght? Or do you know who did? Let's know. If not, let's share and diffuse the passion and love that many people in the world have for your favourite sport.

Hey Piers, don't leave us now that the discussion become very interesting Anyway, I think the attached files can explane better than I do about the diffusion of angled flight showing who, years ago, have done what. While, from 2000, Paramag showed per years the angled flight promoted by Marco Tiezzi (and never seen before), Babylon and others did the only traking jump ever made: the horizontal movement with the torso predominantly horizontal with respect to the ground (FAI Addendum B-6, Diagonal Orientation) The attached file 1 shows the publicity of Babylon Freefly school in Paramag for the year 2001. An interestig comparison is the publicity of Atom Legend. On 2002 Babylon and Atmonauti was both sponsored by Parachute the France and what they showed was very significant: in the pic 2 Babylon do a traditional traking jump and in the pic 3 Marco and Gi do atmo flight, as promoted by Marco since 2000 in the same magazine. It'll pass few years before magazines will show other people to use this innovative technique. On 2002 Paramag publics the "Project Evolution", see pic 4. Parachute the France creates a story for own publicity and choose Atmonauti because they rapresent the evolution for human in who realy fly. The particular shape of Gi shown on the cover, was presented for the fisrt time on the DVD "Atmonauti 2000". In pic 5 you can see a frame. By this shape Gigliola have recorded a very low vertical rate: 140 km/h! The pic 6, from Paramag 2004, shows once again the only tracking jump ever made by Babylon and at this point I haven't seen yet any angled flight (not made by Atmonauti). Picture 7: here it is the new publicity of Babylon Fly School. Is the first time that they show a own angled flight, after 4 year of practice. I think the particular shape used in the publicity is a trubute to the Project Evolution for what Atmonauti rapresent for human flight (see pics 4 and 5). Also it seems that this shape is the same for trace (but I'm not sure). I would remind you that in the years 2003 and 2004 Babylon was joined to X-team and improved the secrets of angled flight directly from the inventor as learnt since 2000. In the italian website paracadutismo.it , Marco, wrote: Babylon since 2000 in France, boogie after boogie, was came many times to flying in Atmonauti learning the technique. With Eli at the Espace Boogie on 2003 we made many jumps in atmo. Breafing and debreafing was succeded and the progression was rapid. (http://www.paracadutismo.it/forum/showthread.php?p=46631#post46631) Now I would know what you think about these documents and in particular about what Marco wrote on Paracadutismo.it Inventor of angled flight or inventor of stories? Please, let me know. Vins

I'm sorry, I made a mistake. Atmo-freestyle was presented for the first time on 2000 (as documented) and on 2003 FAI introduced the manouvers in angled flight and it described that particular angle (called Atmonauti) in the Addendum. Marco an Gi have done the firts record in angled flight (documented) on 2001 (5 way) and they have made the new record with Babylon and the other componets of X-Team (documented) on 2004 27 Oct, in Perris Valley (9 way). If you know something different share your documents, please. In the attachements you can see the first documented angled flight of famous professionals that I found. On the web site www.atmonauti.com the record was presented like an atmo record and nobody have never discuss this big event like something promoted by other people until 2004/2005. Why today many people say that this story isn't true? Have you never heard or read something different? Let me see, share your informations, please. On Facebook Ciocca and Tiezzi have requested many times documented informations, photos or videos that proof you affermations, but unfortunately the only thigs that you shared, Piers, was a lot of words. I think that a little pic sometimes can show more than big words. Share some pics, please! I saw a lot of DVD, VHS and magazines. What I saw is that before 2000 the angle is completely unknown, it didn't exists in theory, it didn't exists in facts, it didn't exists in "concepts", it completely didn't exists! I have never seen nothing about angles before 2000 and I saw famous people doing angled flight after that they have learnt the "new" techique directly from the inventor and, at that time, the only promoter (regarding what I read in the magazines). Did you read something different? Share your texts, please. It's a little bit strange that who flown in angle before Marco, have never shown nothing. And it's more strange that those people have never wrote the facts. On Facebook Eli Thompson wrote an intersting topic about this story and I invite you to read again that topic and write here what you think about it. I hope that my words are not confused because may incorrect english. What I would say is that for sure I have maximum respect for Babylon, Fabbi, Alchemy and FlyBoyz. But my opinion is that you talk for you only and your thinks are only your thinks because not supported by that professionals. If I'm wrong, forgive me, but this discussion goes from long time. Why continue so? Do you have some document that show stuffs that seem something like angles, done by other people before that Marco presented the atmo flight as own discover? I'll glide to see, share please. Vins