cratermaker

I want to thank everyone for their input on the statement "For optimum results, the remote switch you use SHOULD match the focus mode you want to use.". I've gained a lot from the information you've supplied. I feel this subject has about played out now. Two additional factors that no one spoke of may make some difference. Ma Nature is one. I wonder how the freezing , or near freezing, temperatures at altitude affects your lens focusing operation in freefall? Fall is almost here. It's getting colder up there. The other is the golden orb of death. I wonder how the lighting affects the metering speed that first hour or so at Sunrise and Sunset. Or clouds, if you're close to punching them. (We would not go through them, that would be against FAA regulations) Just seems there's some rather drastic lighting changes at times. So long and Blue Skies. Cratermaker

PhreeZone, thanks for you additional info on Nikon lens multiplier. I got away from Nikon after my Nikon 2000 and I am not currently up on Nikon's DSLRs. That is why I talking about Canon Auto Focus now. Do you jump a Nikon? Does Nikon have focus modes similar to the focus modes used by Canon? Is there a focus mode in Nikon that uses constant focusing and/or metering? Could this Canon Auto Focus discussion apply to Nikons too? Just wondering. Please, let me know your thoughts. Or anyone that uses a Nikon for skydiving. I just read your new post. Excellent information. I completely agree that there are factors outside our discussion of focus modes and remote switches that makes a difference. We do need to be aware of them. For my purpose here, I starting with remote switches. You seem to agree that how the remote switch is wired can be a factor. And the two auto focus mode we have to choose from can really make a difference. Especially when due to the different lens available for us to use. As far as metering modes, yes that is a factor too. For some camera system applications it could be a big one. Or a small one. As far as flash factors, yea, that is another tangent entirely. Right now, lets lay the foundation and maybe even pour the floor. The walls, windows and roof can come later. They are in the blueprints after all. Cratermaker

*** Just be aware that changing other variables (like the lens) may make the switch less of a factor in the overall system. *** velvet, there's your answer. As I keep saying, leave this talk about lenses out. I'm sure you have a great lens. I don't believe I've seen a negative review. It's just that I'm still trying to lay a foundation. Even talk about the FSS is moving beyond the original thought. It's saving grace is that also applies to the Auto Focus discussion. If you read previous posts, you will see that the lens has already been accepted as a variable. Besides, what about those of us that do not own a Canon 10-22mm lens. Most do not. They may want to get the most out of their Sigma 15mm or Canon 15mm, or one of the many, many other lens used on a freefall camera system. I could be wrong, but I feel the average videographer out there will spend $50.00 on a different remote switch to try and improve their camera system performance before they will spend $500.00 on your Canon 10-22mm lens. But once again, I could be wrong. *** My personal experience: a tongue switch with a stereo plug (not constant focusing) on a Rebel XTi with a Canon 10-22mm lens (AF + AI Servo mode) is plenty fast enough to take very sharp images in burst or single mode. Combine that with less battery drain due to no constant focusing, and it's a solution that works fine for my purposes. Thank you for your description of your still camera set up. This is what I'm looking for. While you say that the type of a remote switch may make less of a difference factor in the overall system(compared to your Canon 10-22 lens), you do concede the type of remote switch COULD be a factor. You seem to be very happy with your results. That is all anyone could ask for. If you are looking for my "hard data", it's right in front of you. Reread the posts here. There's my data. If you desire "specific and measurable differences", mine are going to be very similar to your description of your lens focusing speed as "is plenty fast enough". It is going to be subjective. Sorry. OK, here's my "optimum still camera switch" One that has a failure rate of less than 1 in 10,000 SKYDIVER USES, comes in all versions(bite, tongue, hand, and blow), has plugs for all DSLR cameras, can be wired for constant focus or/and focus/fire, and looks pretty. Finally, let me repeat for you, I am not trying to change anyone's mind. Only you can do that. What my "best is" is just that, MINE. You are free to decide what your "best is" That will make it YOURS. Cratermaker

Com'on now guys. Let's play nice. BMFin may be under a little stress. It could be that his brand new still camera may have arrived. I'm sure he's ready to mount his 85mm F1.2 lens, get to the DZ and shoot some tandems. You would be too. And yes, I too, would like to see him post some shots of his 85 mm lens. Set to 1.2 F stop exposue. In manual settings. And don't forget the burst shots on exit/openings. He may have a digital lens instead of a full frame lens. That could make all the difference in the DoF. I would also like to see some comparison photos shot with AF settings. In AI Servo focusing mode. And One-Shot focusing mode if possible. But he could be having trouble finding a mono switch for his new Canon 10D. Or a stereo switch for that matter. His camera mounting may not require a FSS. So that may not be a factor. Or it could be something else entirely. Who Knows? How about some fresh voices, Some fresh ideas/thoughts. I'd settle for a good question on the title/subject of this disscussion. If I change the title of this discussion to "For optimum results, the remote switch you use SHOULD match the focus mode you want to use.", would that spark anyone's mind? There seems to be a problem giving the two types of remote switch wiring a name acceptabe to most videographers. How about CF and FF. Constant Foucus and Focus/Fire. Or CMF and FMF. Constant Meter/Focus and Focus/Meter Fire. What do you think? I'm sure some of you jump your Canon still camera in Sports Mode. I've seen it. Did you know that Sports mode selects AI Servo as it's focusing/meter mode? Which type of remote switch do you use? Focus and ground or focus and shutter? Does the wiring of your remote switch match the AF mode setting? How are your results? For those of you that personally select your focusing mode from the camera's menu, is your remote switch matched to it? If not, have you tried a remote switch wired for the focusing mode you selected? How are your results? Are there anymore of you out there that have made or experimented with some form of a device that allows you to switch between the two types of wiring? Some kind of FSS. Do you want to talk about it? How are your results? How many believe that it makes no difference which type of remote switch wiring you use with your AF focusing mode? Any exceptions? How are your results? I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, But my mind may be changed. Or even better, expanded. To me, that is a good thing. How are your results? Cratermaker

BMFin, you should really start a new discussion on manual vs. auto settings and lenses. Things are getting really extreme here on this subject. It would be a really good place to develop the thoughts you are generating. One other comment. You keep stating mono plugs are AI Servo and stereo plugs are One-Shot. You are going to eventually have a bad experience when you plug in a stereo plug and get AI Servo as a result. Conceptus makes a fine switch. But they aren't the only ones out there. Some use only stereo plugs and wire the switch for One-Shot or AI Servo. And I'm one of them. I do use different colors of heatshrink to tell them apart visually. I prefer to differentiate the two switch types as One-Shot or AF Servo, not mono and stereo. Less confusing that way. Also, bomb420 is talking about a focus selector switch, not a remote switch. Two entirely different animals. The biggest dif is that the FSS does not control the shutter operation, only the focus operation between the two modes. You have to use two different remote switches to achieve the same results. Cratermaker

Thanks bomb420. My point exactly. While your Focus Selector Switch(and mine) eliminates the need for two different camera remote switches. the point still is, the remote switch you use must match the AF mode you want to use. The great thing about the FSS is that you only need one remote switch to do both jobs. When the camera body is in AI Servo, you can also place the FSS in One-Shot mode to stop the auto-focusing until you are ready to jump. You can't do this with just the remote switch by itself. Another bonus with the FSS is that you only need two remote switches. One for use and one for a spare. Without the FSS, I'd have four remote switches. One for each use and a spare for each. You do keep a spare remote switch in your kit don't you? I'm friends with a very, very well known videographer. He shoots a Canon 5D Mk II for stills. He also uses an AI Servo remote switch(after all, he is a true professional photographer). What scares me is that his still camera setups can make it impossible to turn off the camera with the on/off switch to stop the auto-focusing sometimes. I've seen him turn on the camera and mount it on his helmet. Then he opens the memory card door to stop the auto-focus. Closing the door returns the camera to full operation. I'm sorry, but I see all kinds of bad things that could happen doing this for every still camera jump he makes. Digital cameras really don't like dust and moisture. I'm not going to open up my camera body's card door and invite either in. Another good reason for a FSS. Whether we talk AF modes, remote switches, or FSS, I'm seeing some good response to this discussion. Please, keep writing in. Nothing is ever set in stone. Let's turn over a few rocks. Cratermaker

*** Using a shutter/aperture combo that gives you a good hyperfocal distance can help alleviate that problem. *** Did you notice this? A year or more ago I was playing with my Canon XTi off the helmet. I noticed that the DoF scale on my lens did not seem to match the true DoF I was shooting. Puzzled, I went to a few websites for some info. One of them was the site mentioned above. On this site, they have an On-line DoF Table. Here I found the answer to the difference. It's called the "circle of confusion". Such a perfect term for skydivers! As a lot of us use full frame lenses on our digital XT and non 5D cameras. The full frame lenses have the DoF scale set for full frame CoC(circle of confusion), about 0.03mm. The CoC for Canon XT and 10D-50D is about 0.019mm. The digital camera lens focal length multiplier also applies to the CoC as well as the focal length of the lens. Not a great deal of difference, but enough to be noticed. You may want to note this for future reference. It's always something. I got involved anyway. Cratermaker

***In both cases, you're subject to the whims of Canon's autofocus algorithms.*** Now we're getting somewhere. If this is true. If the whims were taken into account, perhaps that is why Canon uses two other modes of auto focus beside One-Shot. One-Shot focuses, meters exposure, and locks these settings before it fires. If you fire a burst, no updates on focus or exposure settings are used, it's locked. AI Servo uses a constant focus and exposure setting updates from the get go. AI Focus starts out One-Shot and goes to AI Servo if it detects subject movement. But even in this mode, it is mentioned as detecting movement before the shutter is told to fire. But it updates info in bursts. Funny that in the manual it says that in AI Focus "the camera switches to AI Servo AF and focuses continuously", not as in AI Servo, which "the focus and exposure setting will be adjusted continuously". I wonder why AI Focus leaves out exposure setting adjustments? This train of thought about "the whims of Canon's autofocus algorithms" seems to emphasizes my belief that the remote switch must match the AF mode you want to use. Why hinder what Canon is trying to give us. As far as manual setting vs. auto setting, that's out side of this discussion arena. But it sure would make a good one on it's own. The good old days with my Nikon 2000, 24 mm F1.28 lens, and Sony V-101. Nah, I won't go there either. Cratermaker

BMFin, thanks for your thoughts. A good place to start. [qoute] There's a few things I don't quite agree with.1st off using the so called "one shot plug" with one shot mode will actually focus 1st and then lock there and fire only after that.*** You are correct that it will first focus, then lock and then fire. How much time it takes varies. How far did the lens have move from the previous focus point to the new focus point, then lock, and then fire? When you are hold the camera body in your hands and compose your shot, it is just like freefall. But on the ground you have a two phase switch in the camera body. A little pressure and the body tell the lens to focus, meter, and lock the settings. A little more pressure and the body tell the shutter to fire. The normal One-Shot remote switch(or any switch we now use) is on or off. When you press your remote switch, two signals are sent at the same time, focus/lock and fire. So there is a delay from the time you press the remote switch until it fires. How much? Dunno. Too many variables such as; how far did the focus points have to move, how long is the lens actually taking time to focus, how fast does it meter the exposure setting, and I'm sure there's more. So for my purpose, I simply say it will focus and fire at the same time. *** In general there are two types of switches. Mono and stereo.*** I cannot agree with this statement. Switches come in many types. Here are a few: spst, spdt, dpdt, and dpst. Most switches use for skydiving remote use are either spst or dpst. Simply an on off switch. Plugs come in mono, stereo, 4 conductor, etcetera. To say that they determines whether that makes them a One-Shot or AI Servo is false. How they are wired determines this. *** Forgot to add that IMO stereo plug works as well with a lens that has fast AF.*** I'm only discussing AF modes and switches. Different lenses is a variable outside this arena. Skydivers generally use four types of lens, the one that came with the camera, the cheapest, the best they can afford, and the best available. I'm not going there. So where are we? The only real disagreement I see, goes back to my original statement. "The remote switch you use must match the camera focus mode you want to use." Your replies indicates that you believe that a remote switch wired for One-Shot will work just as well one that is wired for AI Servo when the camera body is set for AI Servo. (Do you also believe the inverse to be true too?) I agree that after the first shot in camera AI Servo mode(with a normal remote switch One-Shot wired), the body and lens will keep focusing and metering as long as you hold the switch closed. But in-between these burst shots, any single shots(I don't rock and roll from exit to opening), you are back to the One-Shot switch operation. I still feel that if I have my camera body and lens operate in the way each AF mode Canon suggests, I have a better chance of getting the shot I want, instead of the shot I delete. If the camera and lens has determined the proper focus and metering(AI Servo) well before I take the first shot, that shot will come quicker, and I feel, more accurately. Whether I use a burst or not. Thank you for your input. But don't stop. I still want to hear more thoughts and ideas. I hope more cameramen will join in. Cratermaker

>THE REMOTE SWITCH YOU USE MUST MATCH THE CAMERA FOCUS MODE YOU WANT TO USE.< I made this statement in another post about Canon Auto-focusing in One-Shot and AI Servo modes. The fact is these two camera focusing modes are what 99% of videographers use in freefall. Notice that when you select "Sports Mode", it places the camera in AI Servo focusing mode. If you own a common, off the shelf, Canon remote switch(mouth, blow, or hand) for freefall use, it is wired for One-Shot mode. The switch has two posts. One post is used for the Common(ground) wire and the other post is used for the focus wire and shutter wire tied together. The focusing happens only when the shutter is fired. Hence, One-Shot operation. If you own a Canon remote switch(mouth, blow, or hand), that has been wired for AI Servo, the two posts are wired differently. One post has the Common(ground) and the focus wire tied to the same post. The shutter wire is used on the other post. This allows the camera lens to focus until the camera body is told to fire. This is how AI Servo is suppose to work. If you use a common One-Shot Canon remote switch with your camera body set to AI Servo, the camera lens will not be "pre-focusing" until you take the shot. The result is that your camera lens will be focusing in One-Shot mode. (And the camera body saying, "What the Hell?") If you use a Canon remote switch wired for AI Servo with your camera body in One-Shot mode, the camera lens will be focusing all the time. Again, just the opposite of how it is suppose to work.(And again the camera body is saying, "What the Hell?") If anyone finds that these are untrue statements, please write in. Join in this discussion. While I believe what I say is true, I could be wrong. Cratermaker

***Maybe my description was off... too long for me to reread. But my point was that your focus selector switch isn't actually telling the camera you want AI-servo vs. one shot, right? It's just grounding the focus contact with the camera in AI-servo mode, right? When it's off, the shutter switch works normally, focusing and firing at the same time. Make sense? Dave, you are correct in that the Focus Selector Switch is not "telling" the camera body anything. AI Servo and One-Shot is selected in the camera's menu by the user. All the Focus Selector Switch is "telling" the camera body to do is allow the lens to constantly focus until it is "told" to take the shot. This is how AI Servo is suppose to work. If you change to One-Shot in the menu, then the FSS One-Shot "tells" the camera body to focus and fire at the same time. REMEMBER, if you are using a "normal" remote switch, it will "tell" the camera body to FOCUS and FIRE AT THE SAME TIME. NO MATTER WHICH FOCUS MODE YOU HAVE SELECTED IN THE MENU. The remote switch you use MUST MATCH the focus mode you want to use. Try this at home. You can come up with a test to see the difference between AI Servo and One-Shot. Or get a second remote switch wired for AI Servo and compare freefall shots of AI Servo vs. One-Shot. You will see the difference when you shoot someone coming at you in the two modes. But most of the time it will be subtle differences, for the better. Cratermaker

***So, why not wire up the "Focus Selector Switch" to just take continuous photos in AI Servo mode for the 60 seconds of freefall or so and switch it off at breakoff or after opening? (Assuming you have 8+gig cards and don't mind going back and deleting the useless shots) Karen, not the Wes here. Met Wes many years ago and I have been working with him for the last several years. I'll pass along your message to him the next time I visit. By the way, he has changed the construction of the switch a little. Yea, 60 seconds of non-stop action. Glad I don't have to edit the photos. But it is possible. With a little more electronical education I could make one. When the shutter is fired the first time, it starts an timer module that continues the shutter firing for 60 seconds and then drops out. A second firing of the shutter starts the 60 seconds of photos again. It will need a selector switch too. You may want to take "normal" selective shots after the first 60 second burst. There are a lot of possibilities here. You may be able to select bursts of 0, 15, 30, or 60 seconds. And if they are cheap enough, you could include the mega-gigabyte memory cards with the timer module for a small charge. All is possible. It just takes time and money. But at my age, both are getting short. I've only worked with the wireless remote on the early Nikon 70. I won't go into details, but we turned it into a wired remote. A real pain. Not one of Nikon's better ideas for us in the skydiving arena of sports. However, that does not mean it won't work for us. Who knows, that Canon wireless remote maybe just the ticket. Play with it and let us know how it turns out for you. Your preference for tongue switch seems to put you in the majority. Early guesstimation seems to show that the tongue switch is #1, bite #2, blow#3, and hand #4. Hopefully a few more videographers will weigh in with their preferences. Hope this helps. Cratermaker

Dave, I'm not using AI-Focus. I using either AI Servo or One-Shot. Never used AI-Focus. We'll have to throw that assumption out. Sorry, but I'm totally confused by your description of the switch. It sounds nothing like what I did. I don't see how tying the focus to ground and tying the focus to the shutter could work. Would that wiring scenario not cause the focus wire(remember you said it is tied to ground) to feed back on itself and thus causing the camera to constantly focus and fire off shots because the shutter is now grounded through the focus wire? Maybe you've over thought it, maybe I'm a little blind. KISS. It works. Yes, my Focus Selector Switch works just fine. It only took two tries and one parts order to make the one I use now. I'm still running KISS ideas through my head on improving it. The trip is short, but nutin so far. Cratermaker

***I've gone back and forth between AI-servo and one-shot. I haven't found the advantage of one-shot yet. When do you use it? Good questions Dave. It took me a while to figure this out too. Personally, I felt really dumb not to see it sooner. I'm going with your last question first. It is the beginning of all the other answers. I use AI Servo for the same reason most sports photographers do. The subject is moving. Not so much from side to side(shutter speed will take care that), but that the subject is coming towards(or away) from me. This requires focus. Or really, focus changing as the subject moves. This is where AI Servo really shines. I bring up my camera, compose my shot, and with my index finger lightly pressing the fire button, the subject comes into focus. And stays in focus until my index finger increases pressure to the point it "fires". The focusing system "tracks " the subject until you decide to take the picture. Reread this last sentence. In skydiving, both the camera and the subject can be moving towards, or away, from each other. Quite quickly. Now my stills are on my head(it does not matter where), and it is set for AI Servo. REREAD THAT SENTENCE AGAIN. Here comes the problem. See it yet? That remote switch you use was probably purchased because the camera plug matches your camera. Everyone does and it does not matter what type of switch(mouth, blow, or hand)you select. The problem is that almost all of them are soldered with the focus wire and the shutter wire on one post and the common(or ground) on the other. This means that the camera will only tell the lens to focus the same time as it is told to fire. You'd just well set the camera to One-Shot. OK-OK, I know that some of the switch manufactures will build your switch so that the focus wire and the common(or ground) are on one post and the shutter wire on the other. No Problem. Except, as soon as you turn on the camera, it starts focusing. You can't use One-Shot without it wanting to focus all the time. And it is made worse if you own one of the "less convenient cameras and mounting setups". To overcome the focusing(or lack of) problems of the "normal" switches and the problems of an AI Servo switch, something was needed. I want use AI Servo as it is meant to used and I want One-Shot when it is required for the job at hand. I'm starting with a Canon XT series remote cable switch. I also have a second remote cable that matches my camera body. Yes, that is, two remote cables. I know that mouth switches go bad all too often. The Canon XT series remote cables are the cheapest. So I will use it for my remote switch. The cable and plug that matches the camera body will be used on the Focus Selector Switch. Since I'll be cutting off the switch, I have a spare now. My Focus Selector Switch has two positions, One-Shot and AI Servo. I can now use any manufacture's switch for my remote switch. When I select the camera to use AI Servo, I can stop the autofocusing by moving the Focus Selector Switch to One-Shot until it's Showtime. I can use One-Shot when I wish. I'm not going into details about my Focus Selector Switch. I will tell you this: I work under the KISS principle, and I'm pretty simple. So it can't be that hard to figure out. I hope this explains what I wanted and why. Even more, I hope this helps with your questions. Cratermaker

There has been a lot written lately about still camera remote switches. The Big Three. Mouth switches, blow switches, and hand switches. A switch is a switch. All of us as videographers just want a switch to take the photo when we tell the camera to. How you wire the focus/shutter cables is up to you. Set it up for one-shot or AI Servo. That's up to you and how you want to jump. Personally, I want both. I want to be able to select the focus system for the jump I'm about to do. To accomplish this requires another switch. A Focus Selector Switch. I place mine inline with the camera remote cable. Like this: Still camera remote plug > Focus Selector Switch > firing switch(mouth, blow, or hand). The firing switch is wired with the focus/shutter cables tied together, just like 95-99% of the commercial switches made. The Focus Selector Switch allows me to chose One-shot or AI Servo, depending on how the camera is set to focus. It also allows me to turn off the constant focusing when I'm in AI Servo to save camera battery until it is time to jump. Prior to climbing out or taking a photo, I flip the switch to AI Servo. Now to the point. THE SWITCH. I've used/tried all of the different styles. I want to say this: opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. Here's mine. From over 25 years experience of videography and camera work. Mouthswitches. They come in many flavors. Tact, roller, flip, rocker, ect. Usually used in two variables, tongue and bite. Regardless, they all go in your mouth. And regardless, this is something all of them were NOT designed to do. Manufacturers, at home builders, and everyone else have tried. Some are more successful than others. I build my own mouthswitches. Bite or tongue, the challenge is to make them reliable. I have failed many times in this pursuit of reliability. But so has everyone else. Some are better than others, but failure of mouthswitches is still very high. I have come up with my bite/tongue that is very reliable. And I use it. But I still say mouthswitches, bite or tongue, by and large are the most unreliable of the Big Three. Blow switches. Simple in concept. Reliable in use. Just overly large construction size. Harder to mount in most(not all) camera helmets. So far, I never seen the diaphragm inside the unit fail or the actual switch contacts fail. Here's the asshole part. I personally don't like to use them. It's just me. I have no reason not to, I just don't like to. I wish there were more brand/styles to choose from. Blow switches are far more reliable that the mouthswitches. In the long view, blow switches are cheaper to operate due to not having to replace them as often as mouthswitches. This makes them a step above mouthswitches. Hand switches. The original electrical remote switch. Before electrical remote switches, cable push switches were used. I won't go there. It is too old for anyone reading this. The hand switches used today are very reliable. Any of the switches used for tongue/bite applications could be used for a hand switch. The three big knocks on handswitches are: 1.There is something in my hand, 2. There are cables and connectors sticking out of helmet and they dangle in freefall when I'm not jumping stills. And the best one: 3. I have to connect the cable to take pictures. Number 1, yea, duh! Since we first started using hand switches, some of us did want something smaller in our hand. And over the years, we did. Now the switch mounts to just two fingers, with a piece of elastic. Personally, I've never had a problem with the switch in my hand. And I was hired to do intentional cutaways. None of the other cameramen had problems either. Number 2, don't do it. I constructed a connector system using RCA male and female plugs. The female is attached/lashed just inside the helmet in the lining. The male(connected to the switch)plug is connected to the female and a very short piece of pull-up tape with a snap keeps the cable from being pulled out in freefall. Thousands of jumps, no problems. Nothing sticks out when not jumping stills. And just maybe by chance, if you should ditch your helmet due to a problem, the cable may act as an idiot cord so you might be able to recover it. Number 3, get over it. Everything has to be connected at sometime or another. Hand switches are just as reliable as blow switches. Easier to replace. You also have the option to use a mouth or blow switch in conjunction with the hand switch. Think of it a backup system. This why I pick the hand switch over the blow switch. So pick your poison. I'd like to hear from you on this subject. Just because it works OK right now does not mean we can't improve on it. I've heard many alternatives. I tried many. This is called progress. Where do we go now?