rj2163

Well, better late than never.... This is a followup on this thread that I posted last year. I finally got around to jumping the wingsuit that I got over the winter from Chris. Unfortunately due to health/time/weather I didn't jump much this year and only jumped it late in the year after taking a refresher course from Gord Sellers. So this was only my 4th wingsuit jump. At pull time (5k) I tried twice and just couldn't clear the wing material to get my hacky so decided to play it safe and pulled my reserve (beer)(bit far from dz, over treed area, knew I was about 3k, was getting unstable then literally time slowed down and thought of a Canadian wingsuiter this summer that went unstable at pull time and maybe lost altitude awareness and went in - so I just exhaled, look, locate, pull - nice calm and controlled - instead of maybe setting up and trying again low where I really didn't want to be). I just made it back to the DZ and luckily easily found my free bag. So it all worked out ok. I only managed to get a few more solo jumps on it in before the season ended and had absolutely no problems finding the hacky after that so I certainly wouldn't fault the suit. I don't have much to compare to but the suit seems fine.

an update from me too..... I received the wingsuit from Chris on October 12. The suit was too big but Chris spent a lot of effort, time, money trying to make things right. I'm good to go and I'm looking forward to testing it in the spring. If I'm not happy with it I can return it. When I received it the first thing I noticed was how tough it's made. Super strong materials, zipper etc. However, when I tried it on it was just too big. I wanted a couple friends to look at it and that took a couple weeks but then I fired off an email to Chris with some pictures. Chris was in the U.S. but said when he got back he'd come to my place and fix it. So, on Friday he drove 2.5 hrs from Toronto to Kingston, then sat in a hotel for a couple days fixing it, and delivered it to me on Monday afternoon. Initially it seemed great and there was really no evidence rework. The crotch felt pretty snug but you can't directly see it. We talked about it, but I thought it would be ok. However, after Chris left I noticed the "boys" were feeling a bit sore so I tried on the suit again and realized the centre crotch seam was just too tight. I don't know why it wasn't THAT obvious when Chris was here but I had my rig pretty tight and I may have taken some painkillers because of my back and that might have masked the tighness. So, the next day I contacted Chris saying if he could alter it I'd bring the suit to Toronto. He was at a hotel in Burlington, outside of Toronto, intending to leave for the U.S. but if I came down he'd stay another day a the hotel and it it would be easy to alter it. So I went down and Chis adjusted the seam and I'm good to go. He made a fairly significant offer of compensation for delays and frustrations. But I declined it as what I wanted was a suit to start flying and despite the frustations, he'd spent time, effort and money to fix it and I appreciated that. He was concerned that I said in my earlier post that I had felt mislead by him. We talked about all that stuff for about two hours. All to say there have been some teething pains, a couple specific issues came up with my suit and I accept that. We talked about perceptions and communicaton and he understood why I felt that and I also came to understand better how/why that happened. He seems like a pretty decent guy and it was interesting talking to him. At least for me, he's made a sincere effort to fix things. If you have any problems, don't stew about it, let him know and have some faith he'll probably do whatever it takes to fix it. I understand he has purchased property around Eloy and is in the process of moving the business there. He'll be at a skyding centre so he can sell stuff but be able to better oversee day to day operations and jumpers will be able to come over and check out the operation. It's been frustrating but to be fair I can't really think of another situation where someone has tried harder to fix a problem. So I'm good to go. The two people I know who have Chris's wingsuits both say they fly great. So, I'm looking forward to testing it in the spring. rj

Thanks everyone for the posts and pm's. I agree about the try before buy but it's a little harder because of fit and location. But a few things keep popping up - of course besides the P3, a few mentions of trying the t-bird and later, Havok. I've been reading some of the Squirrel posts. at least this has prompted me to look into things a bit more and follow up on some of the suggestions. Thanks, cheers. rj

Yeah I'm aware of all that. This has dragged on a while so when I started to become a bit concerned I attempted some basic due diligence. I believe that the DNS info you refer to is related to a family busininess. Html metadata on chrisKotscha.com show the content creator is Affordable Web Design Ltd. which appears to be a family run web design/services company. So they are perhaps handling the web page stuff for Chris and registered the site under their company address. That's fine. But they are not responsible for Chris's business activities. So if anyone is having problems don't go bugging them.

Chris emailed me this evening saying he had my suit, had finished it and was sending it tomorrow, as well as addressing questions in my email to him. So we'll see.

I was re-reading my earlier post and I noticed I had said the suit was basically done Oct 28. That is a mistake. It was basically done August 28. (I can't seem to edit the earlier post to correct this)

Thanks, I'll look at the Intrudair stuff. A phantom 3 looks like it may be around $1200ish usd(with back vent and parapack). I think I will start looking into plan "b" so I started another thread looking for advice. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4561698;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread When I met Chris we talked a lot and he seemed like a good guy. But I've mostly lost faith in him and whatever he says my attitude will be "I'll believe it when it happens". For certain reasons my jumping days may be numbered so even if I get my money back - I can't get that time back. I'm just sad more than mad about that. I really don't think it is a big risk at this point but I'm becoming a tiny bit concerned about my money. I do believe chris is working hard to make a living at this and he's willing to return peoples' money or fix things if there are problems. However I'd feel a bit better if there was a physical address for freefalljump.com. Chris explained he's basically homeless and travels from one skydiving gig to the next. when I bought my suit I believe he said a "couple guys in Calgary" made them. More recently he said he has a couple women in a commercial space in Edmonton, Alberta making them. Look at the map - Why Edmonton? What is the address of the commercial space? There are no physical addresses on freefalljump.com. Again, not very worried at this point but at a minimum I'm curious. Originally he said he had some stuff made overseas. A buddy told me that he believed Chris was having stuff made by Frexer in Pakistan but I didn't ask. That doesn't matter. I only bring it up as a funny sidenote because if you haven't seen the "supper" man rw suit on Frexer you should check it out - priceless - I think they could use some marketing (and translating) tips http://www.frexer.com/proddetail.php?prod=10011 Also, at some point it does become a matter of principle. Unless there has been some incredible string of misunderstandings, I do feel somewhat manipulated and mislead but I've tried to put that aside to save some money. But at some point it's not worth it. Jumping is my happy place and there are now some bad feelings connected to this. It would cost more but I may feel happier about it all in the long run moving on to something else if this doesn't work out. On the chance I'm able to go to Eloy in a few weeks, maybe I could rent something and they had something that fit me. I'll contact them and see if they rent. regardless Chris and freefalljump.com are MIA at this point so I'm not sure what is going on.

(edited for spelling mistakes - I'm stocky - not stalky ) As per my previous post - http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4555479;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread - - I had ordered a Glide from freefalljump.com but that may fall through so I’m considering others. I’m looking for only 2 or 3 wing suit suggestions for for good all round (can’t go wrong) intermediate wing suit that I’m not necessarily want to trade up after a few jumps. I’m not the type to spend lots of time doing tons of research and comparisons. I Just want to narrow it down to a couple “can’t go wrong” type suits and get on with it. Being stocky it’s a bit harder to find a used suit so I probably have to buy new. Money is tight so I’d like to get something that I’d use for a while. I have only done one jump on a phantom 2. It was awesome! I felt absolutely stable and in control. I did a couple practice pulls and left my hand on my back for at least 4 seconds to get used to the extra material and position and felt rock solid. So I feel I could handle an intermediate suit. So my first inclination would be just to order a P3 based on my P2 jump. There are many comments on other threads that say it would meet my priorities of being a good all round suit that I'd keep for a while. But are there a couple obvious other suits to consider? I don’t want a lot of choices – it makes by brain hurt. My only concern is I’m a bit stocky build – 5’6 about 180-185 lbs so my concern is being able to stay with a flock. I understand ability to fly my body is the biggest factor for that but, all things being equal, a suit that is more forgiving or favorable to a stocky build for flocking is a priority. Also, between a P2 and P3 is one more or less favorable to a stocky build? I ask because I might be able to work a deal with the guy that I borrowed the P2 from for the jump I did. Money is tight so I’d like to save some if I could. However, if a P3 ( or other suggested suit) would be significantly better than a p2, then I’d pay the extra for a new suit. Thanks rj

Whether or not the f-35 guys or computer model stuff is just marketing hype I don't know. Regardless, I don't believe at this point he is trying to make a top quality leading edge product. I don't really think he's trying to have people believe that. He's trying to make a decent wing suit for a low price. A buddy who finally got his suit modified a couple things and basically ended up happy with what he got for the price. (I understand those mods will be incorporated in newer suits.). I'm a wing suit noob so I don't need top dollar leading edge. I'm kinda short and stalky so I thought it would be a bit hard to find a used one. I'd be happy with even an "ordinary" made to measure suit for around $850 for a couple years. A couple riggers and wing suit guys at our DZ looked over his suit and had some comments but the general opinion was for that price it seemed pretty good. Money's tight. So, I decided to give it a try.

I said that I ordered the suit May 11 weekend. Specifically, the clock started May 12 when I actually paid for it. Chris said this would put me in the queue as of May 12. So if delivery was 13 weeks (late Aug) and it takes 2 weeks to make, he needed to know the color pattern at least by early Aug. There was no confusion about that and I don't think it was an issue.

I decided to post the letter I emailed to chris today. Sorry but it's really long. I am doing this - because a few of us have gone through this at our DZ, there will probably be more, and if your going to get one of his wing suits, be aware of what happened with us. Also, I refer to a "Values" page on Chriskotscha.com. FYI that is here - http://www.chriskotscha.com/values.html --email sent to chris ------------ Sorry to take so long to get back to your 2013-10-31 email. I’ve been super busy and under the weather. I’ve also been trying to talk to some people and decide what to do and say. It’s long but here goes… Offer to return money I appreciate the offer but I’m also frustrated with that option. You have enjoyed the benefit of our money for over 6 months to run your business and finance your lifestyle. What do we benefit for our time, money and emotional investment (I’ve really looked forward to getting my wing suit) simply from you handing back our money after all that? I was hoping you’d do well as it benefits all of us and it’s cool to have Frefalljump in Canada. However, I’ve ended up pretty disappointed. I have found that what you do and say is not reliable. You don’t seem to actually control what happens at freefalljump.com OR you are just telling us one thing then doing something else. I feel manipulated and mislead and you seem to have treated at least some of us exactly as you said you would not on your Business Values page on ChrisKotscha.com. HOWEVER, A buddy of mine went through similar frustrations but finally got his suit. He had to fix some safety and other issues (you say my suit will incorporate these mods), but he basically ended up happy with what he got for around $850. So, I have tried to separate my frustrating and disappointing dealings with freefalljump.com from the product that I hope to end up with and have stuck it out so far. If you realize that: - you are simply not up to this and cannot provide a suit to the standard you claim and get it delivered to me , OR - you are having unresolvable design issues, OR - you know that are going to go out of business in the near future, THEN, I’d appreciate my money back asap. Otherwise I’d suggest you honour your promises and commitments. I believed, trusted and invested in you. Enough talk - DELIVER. Offer of Compensation – that is appropriate but I’m not interested in becoming more involved with freefalljump.com at this time by taking other product. Wouldn’t compensating me directly for the wing suit be more relevant and sincere? What do we do now I believe you told me it takes about 2 weeks to make a suit from start to finish. You said on August 15 that the suit was “almost ready”. Then on August 29 that the suit was 98% complete, the body was done but I had to select a new wing color. Then the main reason for delay was implementing some modifications. That was over 10 weeks ago! And I’ve been told every couple weeks since then that it will be ready in a couple weeks. Could you please answer the following questions? Q1 – Exactly what modifications are being done my suit as compared to (name blocked) suit? I know we already talked about this but has that list changed? Q2 – Is my suit the same as (name blocked) suit or does my suit have additional changes? If so what additional changes? Q3 - Have you delivered any suits that incorporates all the changes that will my suit will incorporate?. If so how many? I would like to talk to the buyers. I understand you probably cannot give me their information but I’d ask you to please pass my email to them and see if they would contact me to tell me about their suit. **THIS IS A LONG LETTER SO I’VE FLAGGED THE FOLLOWING QUESTION AS IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT *** Q4 - Who is designing these modifications, doing the changes, verifying the work and testing the design changes? You are in the US for months spending your days flying, so it is not you. So who (names) is doing these things and what is their experience? Q5 – If my suit was basically finished October 28, why has it taken an additional 10 weeks (and counting) to slap on the wings and make those modifications? Q6. I’m curious about one other thing. You appear to drive around in your car with people’s partially completed wing suits for several weeks before delivery to the buyer but after it is supposed to have been made in Calgary or Edmonton or wherever the suits are made? What is that all about? Guarantee Our season is now over so I may not be able to jump and test this suit until next year. That sucks. The suits are going through a lot of modifications and I won’t even benefit from changes that happen between now and then. Given my concerns above I’d like the option to return it no questions for a full refund if I’m not happy with it. However a buddy is going south for jumjps in a few weeks and if my suit is done I may be able to go with him. So I’d still like the suit asap. Personal note: There are statements on pages on ChrisKotcha.com that focus on creating the appearance of success and that will create growth. You are a super duper enthusiastic cheerleader for yourself, your product and freefalljump.com. However, there is another way to succeed and create buzz. Treat you customers with honesty and respect, take responsibility for the promises made to the people that trusted and invested in you and deliver a quality product on time. I suspect what is going on is you had our money and are fulfilling newer orders, whether clothes, jump suits or wing suits, to raise money to scale up and expand. That’s always a dilemma for growing a small business. I’ve invested in a couple Kickstarter projects and I see this all the time. It might get you through a tough time but I don’t think it’s very ethical or good business. People that do that tend to suffer tremendous bad will at a time when their business is most vulnerable. But who knows what you’re doing. Chris, I understand that you offer people money back and try to fix errors. That’s good but you need to keep your commitments in the first place. I wish you success. If you are successful it benefits us all. However, don’t lose your values in trying scale up and succeed. As your “Values” page on ChrisKotscha.com states that might be good in the short run but bad for you and your business in the long run.

Yes I have been in touch with Chris….. Chris gave a wingsuit course May 11 Weekend at our DZ. He didn’t have a suit that fit me but fortunately the DZO had a Phantom 2 that fit. I had a great flight. Chris said his suits were similar. He had developed the suits with a couple engineers that had worked on the F-35, some aspects of the design were developed with computer models of the suit flight dynamics and had patented some of their ideas. Initially they were made over seas but now they were being made by a couple guys in Calgary. This all sounded great so I ordered a suit. The suits took about two weeks to make but delivery at that point was 13 weeks. June 26 – emailed Chris with my color pattern – black and yellow. The following are snippets from emails from Chris in response to me basically asking “where’s my wing suit”. Aug 21 (week 14) "Hi Rob,For the wingsuit we made a slight design change to increase the efficiency in flight and it should be done in approx. 14 days. I know that will be 3 weeks later then the delivery dates but I know you'll love the new mod as it increases lift by almost 15% and is awesome! I apologize for the delay, we really wanted to be 100% sure the mod would hold up to stress testing". Aug 28 (week 15)- "Hi Rob, There was an issue with the dye on this batch of yellow parapac/Kevlar blend. We can either wait for a new batch (4 weeks min!) or build the wings with another colour of black, white, red or blue. Any of this colours appeal? Won't take long to sort out the suit once we choose a colour". Aug 29 (week 15) "Hi Rob, The main body is done and they had started on the wings.... Till I noticed it was puke yellow/orangey and not at all what you would like." Note: I phone and talked to Chris and he explained that he had a couple women working in a commercial space in Edmonton, Alberta and they had basically completed the suit. He happened to visit Edmonton and noticed the puke yellow color wings and knew I wouldn’t like it so he had the wings removed and contacted me. The problem with this is that Chris had this conversation with a buddy of mine in April – a month before I even bought my suit. I asked several times to get a picture of the partially completed suit beside some colors. I received pictures of colors, or someone else’s suit, but not a picture of the partially completed suit. The yellow was sort of a lime green and my girlfriend liked it so I asked him to get a picture of the suit lying on it. Chris explained the material had been returned to the manufacturer. If I wanted yellow he didn’t know when he could get it and offered my money back. IMHO I didn’t think the suit had actually ever been started but decided to go ahead anyway and get a black and red suit but it took a couple weeks to sort out the details. Sept 18 (week 18) – “From this point I expect the suit to arrive at your door no later than 3.5 weeks” Oct 21 (week 23). Hi Rob, I expected your suit to have been sent out. I will follow up. I understand that this has dragged on for a bit and I apologize for that. There was a lot of 'lessons learnt' and unfortunately most revolved around your suit. Oct 21 (week 23) “Hi Rob, Your wingsuit needs a few mods to make it as robust as we expect it to be. So I've told the office that I want it completed this week and to do what it takes to achieve it”. Oct 31 – (week 24) “Hi Rob, I heard some excuses as far as why your suit was not completed…” Chris went on to offer me some compensation with Free Fall clothes or my money back. I’ve been busy, under the weather and deciding what to do so I emailed Chris today and we’ll see. I may post the letter that I wrote him because I ask some questions that other people might be interested in.

DSE - would you mind telling us the approximate date that you ordered the wing suit and I would apprecaite knowing when you get it. A couple of us ordered our suits in May after Chris gave a wingsuit course at our DZ. One person recieved her's about two weeks ago - wrong colors and didn't fit (Chris measured her). I don't have mine yet. thanks. rj

DSE - Did you order the suit from Chris? If you did, could you please tell me when you ordered it and what you were told the expected delivery date would be? I'd really appreciate it. rj

Anyone buy a Chris Kotscha wingsuit (freefalljump.com) this year (2013)? When did you order it and when did you receive it? thanks rj