BrianM

yeyo

Just to be clear, what he meant was to loosen it AFTER opening. "Tighter than most" is good for the freefall part. Ask your instructor to show you and explain the concept.

Just to be even more clear , you should loosen it not just after opening, but after releasing your brakes and completing your canopy control check.

A canopy (main or reserve) includes the canopy and lines, slider, and links (metal Rapide links or soft links).

Everything else belongs to the container:
- main deployment bag
- main pilot chute
- main risers
- main toggles
- reserve deployment bag
- reserve pilot chute
- reserve toggles
- cutaway cable
- reserve ripcord
- RSL

It's a good idea to confirm what is included when buying used gear (especially when buying online where you can't see it in person). People sometimes sell a canopy with the risers, D-bag, and PC; then they sell the container to someone who then has to go out and spend more money on replacing the missing parts. Less expensive to the buyer (though perhaps just as inconvenient if parts aren't available locally), I've also seen people sell canopies without the links.

billvon

>I think i know most of you will recommend to stay at 150 and i will propably go
>for it anyways, but i´m still interested in your opinions and how fast/slow you
>downsized.

Once you can take your 150 under almost any conditions and:

-stand up 100% of your landings
-flat turn at least 90 degrees at 50 feet
-flare turn at least 45 degrees
-land standing in a crosswind
-land safely downwind
-land reliably, standing up, within a 10 meter circle
-initiate a high performance landing with double front risers and front riser turn to landing
-land standing up on slight uphills and downhills
-land with rear risers

then you might be ready to downsize. Can you do all that?

Most of us have who have been on dropzone.com for a while have seen this, here's a more detailed version of billvon's post (also written by him):
http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Canopy_Control/Downsizing_Checklist_47.html

DougH

The real issue is that you can't always be conservative or careful. Landing off, getting cut in a pattern, having a bad day or a bad jump because you a human. It isn't the 99 landings where you get away with it, it is the one where it catches up with you because your flying a wing you aren't ready for.

I'd like to second this. What matters isn't if you can stand up your landings, or land crosswind/downwind, or land accurately, when everything goes well. What matters is what you do when something goes wrong, or when something unexpected happens.

I have had kids, dogs, whuffo tandem spectators with cameras stuck to their faces, etc, suddenly run in front of me just as I was landing. I've been cut off by other canopies very close to the ground. No time to think about how to avoid them, it's a situation of reacting on instinct. It takes time to build the reactions necessary to avoid the person without hurting yourself.

A good friend of mine was injured 6 months ago and is still in hospital recovering from physical injuries and a serious brain injury. Hopefully she recovers enough to be able to work, and perhaps even skydive, again, but that's unknown at this point. We might know in another year. She was landing off due to a long spot, and didn't see a power line until the last second. Her reaction to avoid it turned her into the ground. She could have avoided it with, at worst, a dirty jumpsuit, if she had reacted differently. You have to train those reactions, however, and it takes time to do that. The higher the wingloading, the faster the canopy, the more responsive the canopy, the less time you have to react, and the more time it takes to train those reactions. Get those reactions well trained, then downsize, then start training those reactions again.

By the way, my friend had more jumps in the 4 months prior to her accident than you have total, and was flying a similar canopy (150, 9 cell, non-elliptical) at a similar wingloading.

jumpwally

.....and what might food grade silicone be used for in the food industry.. ? Sounds rediculas.....

Lubricating equipment where there's a risk that small amounts of lubricant could come into contact with food, mold making, mold release agents, anti-stick agent for food handling equipment (chutes and slides, etc).

riggerrob

Starting up an FXC Astra: switch to "ON."
The light flashes green 11 times, then goes solid green.
What does this mean?

My reading of the Astra manual (Revision 3, 1997) says that solid green means an error in the cutter circuit.

Would a rigger more current than me please comment?

Low battery, faulty cutter connection, or a fired cutter.

hackish

***

Quote

http://reviews.canadiantire.ca/9045/0381562P/wd-40-3-in-1-professional-silicon-lubricant-reviews/reviews.htm

This is the answer, a 3 in 1 food grade silicone spray.

If you read the MSDS sheet you will discover the WD40 and jiffy lube brands are primarily propellants and solvents. I don't remember the percentage that is actually silicone but it's quite low.

-Michael

Yep, you beat me to it. That is definitely not food-grade. MSDS says 85-95% petroleum distillates, 1-5% silicone. This is the sort of stuff I found in every hardware store I looked in, and is why I buy the stuff from SCUBA shops.

Something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Trident-Grade-Silicone-Snorkel-Spearfishing/dp/B001O75238/ref=pd_sim_200_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=193VPWMR07BQMBM9XR94&dpID=41hxdohN0GL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_

chowchow

As for a strobe on the top of the helmet. This in addition to being seen itself also illuminates the bottom surface of the canopy with each flash increasing the visibility. It doesn't make it a disco, just a little more visible.

I use a Lightman strobe on top of my helmet. I made a mount for it with a rare earth magnet (similar to the regular magnet mount that is included, using this, this, and a screw), and tape a second rare earth magnet inside the helmet (between the shell and the liner). I keep the strobe in a pocket until I'm under canopy, then pull it out, turn it on, and stick it on my helmet.

I've had lots of unsolicited comments about how visible the setup is due to the canopy lighting up. Also lots of comments about how cool it looks!

chowchow

Some people have indicated they don't think a strobe is needed or of little use. I would argue that the other function a strobe serves is for getting attention in the event of an off dz landing of if you are injured on the dz away from the immediate lit landing area. A good SOP for night jumps is strobes on until landing then switch off once safe. A flashing strobe lets the safety staff know there is a problem/injury out there, or lets the plane vector in on you if off dz.

Yep. I landed in the forest some distance from the airport on a night jump a few years ago (after a double mal). The pilot easily spotted my strobe and was able to tell searchers where to look. He couldn't see my glow sticks at all. Without the strobe, rescue would have taken a lot longer. Which is good - that bear was scaring me!

Hooknswoop

Quote

I always understood the problem with the silicone spray was that it tended to dry out and didn't lube the cables very well.

The aerosol propellant dries quickly, leaving a film of dry silicone behind. This is perfect, it lubricates without attracting dirt that increases cutaway pull forces. It doesn't need to be wet to lubricate.

Derek V

I put a bit on a squeaky door hinge and a squeaky office chair several years ago and they've been completely silent ever since.

lyosha

***I've found food grade silicone spray in SCUBA diving shops.

This stuff?

http://www.leisurepro.com/p-AQU5SP2/500-psi-silicone-spray?gclid=CNqqvu_X78cCFVNufgod7dINtw&kwid=productads-plaid^18283950120-sku^AQU5SP2@ADL4LP-adType^PLA-device^c-adid^56051352613

I'm not familiar with that brand, but it looks similar to what I have.

peter.draper

food grade silicone is recommended by most manufacturers (available at Ace hardware stores I think) but it's almost impossible to find here in Qatar so I usually use a light (very light) coat of sewing machine oil

I've found food grade silicone spray in SCUBA diving shops.

wmw999

The Astra used AA batteries

No it doesn't. It uses a custom battery pack which, I believe, contains CR123A's.

Bosque

Anyone have any experience with Vertical's relative work suits? I know a lot of people love their freefly stuff but I haven't heard one way or the other on the rw ones.

I absolutely love mine. I'm tall and skinny and need a tight fit, so getting the fit right is a lot less forgiving than a baggier suit. My Vertical RW suit is perfect. It also appears to be very well built. I would definitely buy one again.

mxk

"Spurious" is something that's easy to determine after the fact, but if you were being shown a real-time plot of pressure sensor readings, I wonder whether you as a human would be able to make the right decision at the right time.

It is obvious that the data does not accurately represent the real situation when it portrays:
* acceleration of 5g
* underground freefall
* >78mph freefall immediately after becoming airborne
* etc

One does not get suddenly teleported into freefall at >78 mph. These situations are not terribly difficult to detect and don't require delaying firing in a real emergency.

mxk

As for "brief," how long do you want your AAD to wait before deciding that it's a real emergency (serious question)? That was my point about the trade-off between accuracy and time. You can design an AAD that is perfectly accurate by having it wait until you hit the ground. It will definitely know at that point that it should have fired and it will never fire at the wrong time. I would not buy that AAD. To me, 0.8 seconds is a long time if you are already below 1,000 ft.

How long do I want it to wait? Until I reach its designed firing speed at or below its designed firing altitude.

The Vigil's tendency to fire in undesired situations doesn't mean it will fire immediately after a low emergency exit. It'll wait until you reach 78 mph, just like any other AAD. Unless it fires before you exit, in which case a bad situation just got a whole lot worse.

Yes, by the time you reach 78 mph you might be too low to survive. AADs are not a magic solution, especially for low emergency exits or low cutaways. Pull your handles. Emergency exits is not high on the list of reasons that I have AADs in my rigs.

The situations we are discussing are easily detected without delaying a desired activation. Sanity checking data combined with a bit of situational awareness goes a long way. Off the top of my head, I can think of several ways to implement it.

mxk

They are not saying that a "pressure spike" alone can cause the AAD to fire. They are saying that an AAD that is 1) already armed, 2) in a lower pressure area relative to ground zero, 3) very close or below its firing altitude, and 4) in student mode with the lower firing speed may have a really hard time distinguishing a pressure spike from a real fall. That's a pretty reasonable warning. Furthermore, this is exactly the situation where an AAD cannot extrapolate from your current speed to figure out how much time it has left before it must fire.

It can't distinguish an acceleration of 5g from a real freefall that maxes out at 1g? You think that's reasonable?

What about firing on the ground in a pressurized aircraft? That's a situation where it is 1) not already armed, 2) in a pressure area identical to ground zero (because it's on the ground) 3) below its disarming altitude 4) but I guess it's hard to distinguish that from the aircraft taking off downwards and at almost the same instant the jumper suddenly being in freefall at 78 mph

What about slamming a car trunk?

What about putting it in a plastic bag and squeezing the air out (see pchapman's post)?

What about driving down a hill (remember we're dealing with vertical speed only)?

These are situations where I would expect a mechanical AAD such as an FXC 12000 to fire, but I expect more from a modern electronic AAD.

mxk

The lack of a similar warning in the CYPRES manual does not mean that the student CYPRES will behave any differently in that situation. And if it does, you'll have to wonder how long it would take to fire after a real emergency exit at a low altitude.

The CYPRES will fire when it reaches 78 mph, however long that takes. It won't delay longer than that. I'm also not aware of instances of it firing when the door is opened, or in any of the other situations where Vigils have fired.

mxk

I agree, but has that ever happened?

I don't know. It doesn't matter. The risk is there. A better design would reduce that risk.

Look, it might sound like it, but I'm really not anti-Vigil. It has a lot of things going for it. Avoiding false positives is not one of those things. I think it could and should do better.

mxk

AAD fires in cars and airplanes are bad. Having said that, those cases are inconvenient, but not fatal.

An AAD firing in an airplane is potentially fatal. If the door pops open at 150 feet and your reserve PC goes out the door and takes you with it, you are unlikely to survive. If it damages the empennage it could be fatal to everyone on board.

hackish

Ok, so a few things to consider. This aircraft pressurization scenario happened at WFFC was it a decade ago? I think 4 vigils popped and 30 cypreses shut down and stopped working. This is also 2 generations earlier than the units they are presently selling.

WFFC, and there was at least one other occurrence as well. I don't recall which Vigil models were involved. The Vigils that fired in a 182 when the door opened (2008), and the one that fired in a Beech 18 when the pilot's window was opened (2012) were all Vigil 2's.

hackish

The manual says 150 feet of altitude, not a single spurious reading showing 150 feet or more. If you take a look at their patent application you will see that it has to be in the activation range for upwards of 5 seconds.

Since I reverse engineer devices for a living I can say for sure that few items work as simply as an outsider would assume. Basing your purchasing decisions on these assumptions is not a good idea. A better strategy would be to ask the manufacturer themselves how the device will react in a set of circumstances.

I'm an engineer with a background in life-critical embedded systems. I'm quite aware of how complex seemingly simple systems can be. AAD has released plenty of information about how their algorithms work. We also have the details of various incidents to draw on. No, I don't have the source code to examine, but it is definitely useful data. It is obvious, both from multiple occurrences and from the manufacturer's own statements, that the Vigil is not very sophisticated about determining when not to fire. I sure as hell am going to base purchasing decisions on that, especially when competing devices don't seem to have the same problem.

The graphs that AAD released from the two Vigils that fired in the 182 when the door opened showed an acceleration of 4 or 5 g's for about 0.7 or 0.8 seconds. AADs statement is that the Vigils performed as designed. This is the manufacturer stating that a brief spurious pressure reading will cause the Vigil to fire.

The manual for the latest and greatest version, the Vigil 2+, still contains warnings about traveling in a car, opening the aircraft door below activation altitude, and pressurized aircraft. It still warns that a pressure spike can cause an activation (yes, they actually use the words "pressure spike"). This is the manufacturer stating that a brief spurious pressure reading will cause the Vigil to fire.

Data that can not possibly be generated by a skydiver in freefall should not cause an AAD to fire. If it does, that is a shortcoming of the design.

hackish

If slamming a door was statistically likely to set off the vigil then you'd see regular reports of it. Not single data points that happened years ago.

I didn't say it was statistically likely. I said quite the opposite - that you'll get away with it most of the time.

hackish

Can you point to any threads here about vigils popping when trunks are slammed? On the ground they wouldn't be in active mode no matter how hard you slammed the trunk.

No, they wouldn't have been in active mode before the trunk is slammed. Neither were the Vigils that fired on the ground during aircraft pressurization.

The Vigil will switch to active mode when it sees an altitude change of 150 feet (up or down). Presumably, if slamming the trunk creates a pressure change great enough to equate to an altitude change of 150 or more, the Vigil could switch to active mode. If the pressure change is sufficient to meet the firing requirements, the same pressure spike could cause it to both switch to active mode and to fire.

hackish

Thousands of AADs are slammed in trunks each weekend. If this were really a design issue or big problem it would be reported regularly not a couple of data points years ago.

The pressure change would have to be great enough, fast enough, and of sufficient duration. And since the Vigil measures pressure every 32 seconds in standby mode, it would also have to happen at just the right time. You'll get away with it most of the time (trunk not airtight enough, didn't slam it hard enough, didn't slam it at exactly the right time, etc). That doesn't mean this isn't a design issue.

There have been enough incidents to suggest that the Vigil doesn't attempt to determine if the data represents a plausible firing scenario (such as firing in a pressurized aircraft on the ground, or the ones that fired when the door opened after takeoff). It's not possible to be on the ground (pressurization incidents) or in a climbing plane (door opening incident), and then be in freefall at >78mph a fraction of a second later, but the Vigil clearly doesn't check for that. Call it a design issue, call it a design decision, call it whatever you want, but that's how the Vigil works, and it can result in undesired activations.

I haven't been able to find any info on it either. I tried looking at old versions of their website (using https://archive.org/web) but it only goes back to 1999, several years after your canopy was manufactured.

If you don't get an email response, let me know, it'll be a free phone call for me.

Canadian Aerosports made canopies called Blizzard and Typhoon. I'm not sure if they ever made a Hurricane but it does fit the naming theme.

It's hard to believe it's been ten years. I still think of you often. When I'm sitting around a campfire and someone brings out a guitar, or when I'm somewhere with really dark skies and I look up and watch the stars, I'm reminded of you.

Blue skies Vicki!

Hi Jerry,

JerryBaumchen

I now have a Consew 339 double needle ( not a split needle ) and it is a GREAT machine. It is different in that it is a walking foot. I have a binding attachment built by Tennessee Attachments and ( other than having a split needle - Hint: Anyone have one for sale ) it is the best double needle that I have ever sat down with. And, I know that we all have our favorites.

Ryan in Vancouver WA has a Consew 327R-1 for sale. It has a split needle bar. Needle feed (no walking foot), less foot lift than the 339, and smaller bobbins. It's designed for top stitching. Not sure how it would compare to the 339 as a binding machine.

Brian

riggerrob

Returning to the original question ... if you visit the Parachute Industry Association or Australian Parachute Federation or Canadian Sports Parachuting Association's websites, you will find lists of Service Bulletins, Airworthiness Directives, special inspections, etc.
If any offers to sell you gear mentioned in any of those SB, ADs, etc. - and a rigger has not noted the SB on the packing data card - walk away.

That depends on the SB. Some are quick, easy, and inexpensive to rectify. I recently found a great deal on a barely used older Javelin for one of our new jumpers. It was in almost mint condition, but didn't comply with SPSB03032000B. A few inches of Type 12 and a few minutes under the sewing machine took care of it.

jws3

none of the manuals actually tell you to.

Page 40 of the CYPRES manual:

"Non adjustable loops which are attached to a CYPRES disc and are mounted in containers with internal pilot chute should be replaced at each repack. After attachment to the disc, CYPRES loops should be treated with CYPRES loop silicone on the upper 4 centimeters."

Neither Woolite nor naphtha have had any visible effect on this.

riggerrob

Washing should neutralize most nasty chemicals

"Neutralize" and "remove" aren't the same thing. If I wash it and it looks the same, would you consider it neutralized and therefore serviceable? I don't know of any way to determine if what is left is an ugly but harmless stain, or if it's going to compromise the fabric strength.

Ok, the owner says the canister was not hot, it had burned out. Yes, I know those two are not necessarily the same thing! I saw the malfunction video, smoke was ignited in the plane and trailing out the door for a bit, so the smoke would have burnt out well before landing.

I had another look at it last night, and I'm not sure it has actually gone through to both sides. A damp cloth on one side picks up a bit of the black stuff, on the other side it doesn't. I think I might just be seeing it through the fabric.