AtrusBatleth

gowlerk

******It was first celebrated in the US by illegal aliens who were here seeking refuge from their government.

How were they illegals? I wasnt aware of any native immigration laws.


Well, technically, in God's eyes, no one is illegal. But you are just being obtuse. You know full well what is being said here.

What was being said was a false equivalence.

normiss

It was first celebrated in the US by illegal aliens who were here seeking refuge from their government.

How were they illegals? I wasnt aware of any native immigration laws.

billvon

Imagine some guy came up to you in the street and said "I believe in Allah. And I guarantee that if you ever educate yourself, you will too."

Would you take any issue with that? If so, why?

I certainly would not take issue with that. I've had that conversation with a dearly loved family member. I believe he is wrong, and he believes I am wrong. I mourn for his sake, but why would it bother me that he thinks my faith is a lie? I'm concerned with gods opinion, not that of a Muslim.

Here's an old joke I heard (from a Lutheran):
Why will Lutherans get to heaven before Calvinists? Because at the rapture, the dead in Christ will rise first. (Thes 4:16).

tkhayes

god cannot possibly know your heart if he gave you free will.

That is false. Knowing what a person will choose and that person having free will are not mutually exclusive. It's hard for our finite minds to comprehend, I know, but an analogy might help. I offer my 5 year old, who hates broccoli but loves chocolate, a choice between broccoli or chocolate. I know what they will choose, but they still have free will. Sometimes they might sincerely not know themselves what they will choose, but I do, because I know my child better than they know themselves. God knows you better than you know yourself.

But this is all getting off topic from criticizing Trump officials and his supporters.

It amuses me that you posted this in speakers corner. Happy Thanksgiving? Brace yourself for a heated political/religious argument.

But seriously, happy Thanksgiving to you too. Be thankful indeed.

RMK

I think choosing to have a much needed organ buried to rot (when it could save a life) is the ultimate in selfishness.

In some peoples defense, it's not that they specifically want to "stick it to everyone still alive" when they go. The problem is, for most organs to be viable they need to be harvested when the donor is still alive. That requires the doctor to make a judgment call on whether the donor's death is inevitable. Doctors can and have made an incorrect call in that regard. Almost always with the best of intentions, but let's not ignore that some doctors may have a conflict of interest or ulterior motives that influence making a premature call. Point is, many people are not comfortable with trusting their lives to a judgment call. In my opinion defaulting people to be donors is not informed consent, which seems warranted in this case.

DJL

***Dr James Dobson interviewed Ted Bundy in prison. He stated that Bundy confessed his sins, accepted Christ, and was saved prior to his execution.

It is not so much what you did but where you are at the end. The big unknown for most is when is the end.

And that's the bullshit of religion, that Ted Bundy said he was sorry just before he was executed and that makes it OK.

No one is suggesting such a confession "makes it OK." He was still executed. Any decent pastor/priest who councils someone that makes a similar confession will then tell them they need to turn themselves in to the police. Being forgiven by God does not mean there are not still earthly consequences. As for God forgiving even ones as "bad" as Bundy or Dahmer (if their confession was genuine), that is precisely what Jesus says in Matthew 20. It is because of his love for us, that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:7-8).

1.1

Iago

***...why the F can't you guys hold an election without controversy?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/13/politics/who-is-brenda-snipes/index.html

You hadn't heard? They finally finished the recount.


Al Gore won.

Yup.
https://babylonbee.com/news/florida-recount-finally-wraps-up-al-gore-declared-president

I use sophisticated methods such as Google and phone calls. It's worked pretty well for me whenever I've traveled. In fact I have fun with it; usually the first thing I do when I find out I need to travel for work or family is to find the local DZs. The only thing that bums me out is finding out they are closed the one day I have free, or that they are a tandem-only DZ. I guess it just depends where you are traveling.

I agree the list on this page is so out of date I stopped looking, and USPA is only going to list member DZs but it is still a good place to start, but usually I skip straight to Google.

I hadn't heard about it, but I thought it was funny, and the 2nd was well played. Still comes in 2nd to Jimmy Fallon impersonating Robert De Niro on weekend update then De Niro coming on later to respond.

LeeroyJenkins

So the USPA will have a total financial burden of just under 300k$. with over half being contributed over the next 6 years. At the end of 2017 there was about 39k USPA members.

Soooo....yeah, I'm ok with the USPA taking ~1.25$ of my dues every year (total averaged 6y) to help promote skydiving over the long term. Really since 112,200$ has already been spent I am 100% OK with the USPA using ~ 0.75$ of my membership fee (66) each year for 6 more years to go towards the museum.

Yes, this. It's hard to get too worked up about whether they are wasting a few cents per month. Even the entire membership dues are about half of what I pay for Netflix or Hulu. I'm sure someone will make a "slippery slope" argument that in the future I'll be paying thousands of dollars, and when membership dues grow much larger then I will care more. But I just cant find the justification to care about $66/year, for which I get a nice monthly magazine and lobbyists in DC to fight for our sport.

But to answer the question about whether members will get free admission, how about you get your $4.50 discount to cover your personal share of the museum investment. Would that satisfy you?

The proposition to mandate 50% renewable energy by 2030 would have resulted in the closure of the Palo Verde enormous generation plant with negative consequences to both Arizona and California. The proposition was rejected resoundly. Good job Arizona!

JoeWeber

******
how do you reconcile your view of Christianity with the way the Protestants and Catholics loved each other in Northern Ireland

I don't, but were their actions religious in nature, or were they more politically motivated?

Come on, Max. Answering a question with a question-and an irrelevant one at that-is mas no bueno.

What it shows, sadly, is that the core advantage Christians use to sell religion is false. After all, shouldn't their religious sensibilities and morality have kept them from committing political murders?

Point of clarification: you are confusing me with motionscribe. I already answered your question JoeWeber.

JoeWeber

I'm simply curious how a thoughtful Christian reconciles that truth. After all, they were all Christians, too.

That depends on what you consider "Christian". The fundamental definition is one who follows the Christ Jesus. It's pretty clear someone going around killing people is not a follower of Jesus, based on the common reference we all share: the bible. But later in history, there were "Christian" nations that waged wars for any number of political reasons, but that does not mean all its citizens were followers of Jesus. "Christian" in many contexts merely means one is ethnically Christian, i.e. your parents/grandparents were perhaps believers or at least attended church once in awhile. Similarly people can be ethnically Jewish or Muslim or whatever but in practice live a completely secular life. Those people are not really believers and often have not even studied or read their supposed holy book.

JoeWeber

Max,

Following Ken's point, just how do you reconcile your view of Christianity with the way the Protestants and Catholics loved each other in Northern Ireland and the Catholics loved the Calvinists in the Netherlands and Calvinists loved the Protestants in France to name just a few times Christians loved to kill each other?

I see it as no different than Sunni on Shia violence. Why should I?

Joe

Um... when did I imply that I was defending Christians killing anybody in any century? Because that is most un-Christ-like. I follow Jesus and the bible, not any group of men who call themselves Christians. I agree with you; so-called Christians killing each other is no different than Sunnis and Shiites killing each other. (except perhaps that Sunnis/Shiites could actually find support from the Quran/Muhammad for their violence).

I was more referring to the growth of the early church, before Constantine merged the "church" with the state (one of Satans greatest victories in my opinion). In the first few centuries of the church, Christians were literally fed to the lions without resistance, and imprisoned and executed. They were not killing off skeptics, not for several hundred more years.

GordianKnot

Yeah, having to plan how much fun you're going to have on the weekend/vacation gets really tough

To the OP: where are you doing your open water dives? The "take off your mask, put it back on, and then clear it" part probably is the most stressful for a lot of people (it was for me), but it's over pretty quickly and then you never have to do it again.

Tropical diving is pretty relaxed and there's lots of wild stuff to see underwater. Cold water/drysuit diving is a little less relaxed but still fun and there are some pretty epic things that just happen to be at higher latitudes. Hang in there, you'll be fine!

Now that I've started reading through the diver manual and understand what's involved, I actually don't think I will have a problem with the mask off part; then again I didn't think I would have any problem just breathing normal a foot below water, but I did. I won't know until I try, but I am definitely going to try. It just might take me a little longer than most, just like skydiving.
I'll be doing my open water dives at the Crosby Mine pits in MN next summer, at least that's the plan. Travel for some tropical diving sounds way more appealing to me, but I just don't have the travel budget for this winter.

jakee

To call it 'fallen' because it is imperfect means it was once perfect, and implies it could be perfect if it wasn't for us. That isn't true.

According to a humanist worldview, sure that isn't true. According to a biblical worldview, that is absolutely true.

jakee

You're saying that the person with cancer is sick, and because they're sick they deserve to die.

According to the bible, we deserve to die because we have sinned, yes. This is not intended as an insult however. It's not as if Jews/Christians are saying "you deserve to die more than me", or worse, "you deserve to die and I'm going to execute you". Rather, we are saying, "you've sinned, you're imperfect, and I'm just like you; I deserve to die too". The message is one of equality, and also hope. But I will keep in mind for future reference that some people get truly offended at hearing the world described as fallen. After decades of being a Christian, this is honestly the first time I have ever encountered someone who took it this way.

DJL

I'm not. Yes, I'm imperfect and my moral lapses equate me to a sinner...

That is exactly what defines humanity as fallen.

DJL

There is also no inherent relationship between morality and religion. Morality exists in every society regardless of whether or not they have a belief. Do you think morality started when the Old Testament was first printed, that those ideas just sprang out of the mist from an angel? How about all of those societies around the world who have no notion of a religion? I am moral because I care about those living in the world around me.

I agree morality exists in every person. The bible says god wrote his law on our hearts, i.e. that we are born with an instinctive knowledge of god, even if we later grow up and try to suppress that innate knowledge. I know of no believers that claim morality did not exist before the bible was written. What you may have heard from believers is that atheists have no logical basis for their morality, but that is not the same as saying they have no morality.

tonyhays

Why do you belive the bible? Especially when so many stories are easily proven as myth/didn't happen and the many contradictions?

In part because I once believed as you do, until I started reading and researching it for myself. I found that many of the perceived contradictions/flaws were just that; perceived, i.e. misunderstood and often blatantly misconstrued.

wolfriverjoe

One of the reasons so many people believe is because in many cases, the skeptics were put to death (for a variety of reasons) while the believers lived on.

It's worth pointing out that Christianity stands as an exception to this theory. Christians were violently persecuted in the early church, which continues to this day in many parts of the world. Yet the church has grown not just in spite of this persecution, but arguably because of it. Muslim fundamentalism demonstrates another exception, hence why the US and others are often hesitant to merely execute terrorist leaders, because for one leader executed, 10 more spring up to take his place.

JoeWeber

I'm probably making a jackass of myself, but do you derive your nom d' dz.com from a character in Myst and the Klingon fighting weapon?

Why would that make you a jackass? No worries bro. In answer to your question, yes.

God created us with free will. That is why there is sin. If he had created "perfect humans" that had no choice, there would be no love. God considered it worth creating beings that would largely choose to reject him to make it possible for some to choose to love him.

Understand that converting others to "my beliefs" (in the authority of scripture), is what I believe saves their lives. You don't believe me, I get that, but at least understand my motives are good. As for how I would feel if you think I am wasting my time, I already said I would not be offended. It is exactly what I would expect from an atheist; I used to be one. I don't seek your approval for my beliefs and they are not impacted if you ridicule them, so go ahead. I will continue to hope that you may yet one day change your mind and believe in scripture. If scripture is true and I didn't try to share it, that would not be very loving of me. If scripture is made up and there is no God as you seem to believe, well then it really makes no difference whether you convinced me of your beliefs does it? See the difference? It's easy to say "keep your beliefs to yourself and let everyone believe what they will" when you don't really believe any of it is true. It's more difficult to say "these people are drowning and I have a life preserver, but I'll just keep it to myself and see if they find their own life preserver."

gowlerk

That's just plain obtuse. Fallen in the sense you are talking about means condemned. Satan fell and God sent him away. That's what fallen means. It does not merely mean imperfect. The insulting part is that you and yours have returned to grace, but the rest of us remain fallen.

I recognize that most Christians don't necessarily hate the fallen. But large numbers of them do look down on us in a most condescending way.

It is because we are imperfect that we have been condemned; the meanings are one and the same. And yes, I have been forgiven, but I would never look down on you in a condescending way as if to say "I'm saved, sucks to be you, rot in hell". I regret that others apparently have done so to you, as that is most un-Christlike. I look on you with love not hate, pleading with you to accept the free gift being offered to you because I wish that every one would be saved, as is the will of god. From my perspective, you are falling through the sky without a rig on and I'm trying to grab you to save your life. If you don't believe me and turn me away, I mourn your choice. But why take offense if you don't believe you are in danger? Even when I was an atheist I never took offense at Christians trying to persuade me. I recognized that they did so out of a genuine concern for my well-being, even if I thought at the time they were misguided. I will respect your choice if you think the bible is all hogwash, but I don't understand taking offense at someone sincerely trying to save your life. Maybe I'm just being obtuse; I already said I'm not perfect.

I called the whole world fallen. It is a fundamental truth taught by scripture. I honestly don't understand why one would take offense at this. It is not intended as an insult any more than saying someone with cancer is "sick". Unless you think we live in a perfect world, why object to calling it fallen? You don't even have to believe in scripture as I do; recognizing the world is imperfect should be something we can all agree on.

gowlerk

Well let me ask you this then. Are you fallen as well?

Quote

Only those who believe on Jesus will be saved and considered "worthy" in the eyes of the creator.

Am I not worthy? Only you and yours?

Absolutely I am fallen. I am imperfect, I am a sinner, I deserve death eternal. I am saved not by my own good deeds, but by the grace of god. That same grace is a gift that is offered freely to each of us. But we each have the free will to choose to accept that gift or reject it. The first step though is admitting you have a problem. According to the bible, we all do. According to the world, we are "enlightened" and do not need saving. The choice is yours.

"Passive aggressive hubris..."
Where are you seeing this? I was stating my beliefs, not trying to be aggressive. If you take offense, it is with the bible. My Muslim friends believe I am an infidel and will not see paradise. My Jewish friends believe I am a blasphemer equating Jesus with god. My atheist friends, well they think I am just wasting my time and setting back the progress of humanity. I don't consider any of them to be aggressive towards me. We have mutually exclusive beliefs and have agreed to disagree.

Perhaps it would help to explain when I say "fallen world" I mean that the perfect world God created fell from grace when we sinned against him. The present world of sin, disease, death, hatred, lies, etc is not the perfect world God created. It was not supposed to be this way; death is an intruder. That is why Christians call it fallen.

gowlerk

Quote

We live in a fallen world where most people do not honor or obey God

But there are so many ways to honour and obey so many ideas of God. The world is not fallen just because the book of ancient ideas you have chosen is not universally accepted. That is a very narrow viewpoint. If there is a creator thank Her that She is God of all, and not just your tribe. The world is full of many tribes. All are worthy in the eyes of the Creator.

The context of my statement (as I already clarified) was a conversation between Christians. As a follower of Christ, I believe in the authority of scripture, and that there is only one god, the creator of all that ever was, is, and ever will be. There are many tribes, and it is god's will that Christians go out and make disciples of every tribe. God loves every person no matter what tribe. But all are "equally worthy" in his eyes, which is to say equally unworthy. God's word makes it clear we are all sinful, and are all in need of being saved through Christ. Only those who believe on Jesus will be saved and considered "worthy" in the eyes of the creator.

That is what I would expect a Christian to understand. But as an unbeliever, I can understand why you dismiss scripture as merely man-made and flawed, just one among many man-made beliefs. That is to your own detriment, but you have that freedom. From a biblical perspective, we live in a fallen world and most people do not honor scripture or obey god.

Re: billvon,
Yes I agree it is sad to see Christians using scripture to support Trump. I can understand those that choose to "tolerate" the man for the sake of some of the secular objectives he has (lesser of two evils argument), but I can't relate to those that think he is actually a believer. He is respectful of believers in certain contexts, sure, but that doesn't make him a believer. I can be respectful of my Muslim family, Jewish and atheist friends, etc, but I don't share their beliefs.