shadeland

Another mod I know works is a slider from a different, larger parachute. I’ve borrowed a Sabre 1 150 from a master rigger, he had a slider from a pilot 210 on it. Opened up nice.

skyderrill66

***My main motivation for an impending KISS purchase is that I'd like to be able to wear my glasses behind the visor to be able to see the wind sock from higher up. That and (eventually) a chin-mount for a camera make it seem worthwhile. The style factor is really neither here nor there for me, anything new and clean that fits perfectly would satisfy that.

32 jumps and already thinking about adding a camera. You need to learn to walk before you run. 32 jumps you need to learn to skydive safely first before adding a camera.

Assuming they were thinking about a chin-mount camera because of the cut-away system, I would encourage that kind of forward (stress the forward, as in 200 jumps forward) thinking in gear choices for new jumpers. There are helmets that have a variety of either snag resistant, easily cut-away, or both, reduces the risk for camera flying. The less teletubby-snag baits I see the better.

Here’s a short list I’ve compiled of appropriate canopies for beginners. It assumes proper wing loading, and of course talk to your local riggers and instructors. This list does not cover all the canopies that would work, it’s just the short list of currently made canopies that you’re also likely to find on the used market:

Performance Designs:

Sabre 2 (NOT the Sabre 1)
Spectre

Aerodyne:

Pilot
Pilot 7

Icarus/NZ Aerosports

Safire 2
Safire 3
S-fire

IPT

Axion


Avoid Sabre 1s unless the slider has been addressed by a qualified rigger. Don’t let anyone tell you “you just have to pack it right”.

evh

In some countries (I live in one) they won't let you jump a firebolt if you have less than 400 jumps.
Low wingload helps, but - at least according to the people who make the rules over here - this no canopy for your experience level.

My guess is the term "fully elliptical" is what triggered that particular enforcement. Jumpshack/PLI markets it as such: http://plabsinc.com/9.html

I speculate that they market it as "fully elliptical" to get the biggest market they can for their canopy, as it's their *only* canopy (other than their reserve). As someone else mentioned, it's pretty dated in terms of technology.

Elliptical is not meaningful distinction anymore. As the John Le Blanc talk goes into, most canopies are "elliptical", even student ones.

The Firebolt is likely a fine beginner canopy at low wing loading (as they market). All modern canopies are "elliptical".

betzilla

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The FireBolt is absolutely new technology

um, not exactly. It's been out since at least 2003 (that is when the first user review was posted here on DZ.com).

2003 was probably the last time they updated their web page.

benlangfeld

Indeed, that was my reaction when I looked up the canopy after the first reply. I don't really understand the difference very well, but I have heard that elliptical canopies are typically an advanced tool. That said, I've been managing to fly it just fine, so I guess the size is compensating.

Is it something I should be worried about? Should I ask for a more basic canopy? Or since I'm loading it at < 1 and flying conservatively then is it ok to stick with? If I do stick with it, is there anything I need to pay more attention to with this type of canopy than with a "square"?

I don't know much about the Firebolt, though PLI does market it as a beginner canopy at the right wing loading (holy shit is their website garbage). Heck, it's their only canopy.

With regards to "elliptical", that really doesn't mean anything anymore. John Le Blanc (performance designs) has a really good talk on this subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcOOAWpwSTM

Most canopies these days have tapering, even student canopies. I've attached the wing shape of a Sabre 2. Tapering is what many people mean when they say elliptical. Tapering is the outer part of the wing is shorter than the inner part. The shape of the wing isn't much of an indicator as it used to be.

Back in the days of the Sabre 1 and Stiletto, for example, the Sabre 1 is rectangular with no tapering at the ends while the Stiletto had the outer cells shorter than the middle cells (tapering, or "elliptical"). These days just about every wing (save for reserves) have some tapering, making them all "elliptical" to a degree.

I use these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014ATIV5W/

They're great for grabbing rear risers after opening, especially on bigways. They've done pretty well in terms of holding up. I also got them because they're synthetic, as I don't wear leather.

I've been working on a project to visualize and normalize the various container manufacturers sizing as a handy reference guide.

It's a bit of a challenge given that they often use different canopy types for sizing, some use a single size and some use a range, etc.

But given that there are at least 12 or more manufacturers, and some have 20+ sizes, I thought this would be a handy reference when looking at gear on the classifieds or Facebook forsale groups.

I've done Aerodyne, Wings, Sunpath, and UPT.

This is a beta version. And You should always double check and consult with a local rigger of course.

3331

Research was done years ago on the One pin and Two pin Racer Reserve.

The Two pin is a faster cleaner launch of the reserve pilot chute, hands down.
It's about the laws physics.

Where can this research (results, methods, data) be found? And how long ago was this research done?

raftman

Sabre 1 is a great canopy! I put over 2000 jumps on mine. There was only 1 time it smacked me hard enough to remember. It's all how you pack it. Then I put 1700 jumps on the Safire 1, another great canopy for openings. Jumping a Safire 2 now.

I would caution people on that. The problem, I believe, with (most/many?) original sabres was the slider. Hence the fix for most of them is to replace/modify the slider (i jumped a Sabre 150 with a slider from a Pilot 210 on it, and it opened fine).

Packing techniques such as rolling the nose will not slow a catastrophic opening if you end up with bottom skin inflation.

Hunterbeav

Hi Shadeland....thanks for taking the time to respond....I'm looking for all of it, Softer openings ( my old bones would definitely like that), good flare, fast turns and consistent openings.
You'r right about the sabre 1 having hard openings....I used to roll the nose to get softer openings....and even then a little head down open were tuff....I've had a shoe come off in opening.

I think one of the problems with the original sabre was the slider: If it didn't do its job no rolling of the nose would fix the hard opening.

I've seen Sabre 2s wack people pretty hard every now and then (of course any canopy can wack you, but Sabre 2s did it more frequently than Safires or Pilots). For you I might recommend a Safire 2. They have really soft openings that are well staged and usually on-heading. I haven't had much problems with end-cells on them, either. Safire 2s and Crossfire 2s, they're like the Bob Ross of openings. Slow, gentle, and very comfortable.

The flare on the Safire 2 though you'll want to do some up-high flares with a wrap to make sure you get the best flare out of them. Like pilots, they seem to be susceptible to brake lines that are too long. The power-spot on the flare is deeper than a Sabre 2, so if your brakes are too long you might miss some flare. The best way I know of to find it is to pull high and flare and I see what it takes to stall (for the last Safire 2 I flew it was two wraps), and I'll use one less wrap to flare.

They're not as aggressive, turn-wise, as a Sabre 2, but at 1.1 wing loading the difference I think is minor.

danielcroft

On the elliptical-ocity (heh) of parachutes, I think this John Le Blanc chap knows a thing or two: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcOOAWpwSTM

It's a shame that these BPA videos don't get a wider distribution, there are some really good talks in there.

Yup, John Leblanc was where I learned about that.

1100 jumps: My normal deployment altitude is 3,000 feet. Low for me is 2,500. Below 2,000, I go for my reserve only (haven't had to yet, but that's my plan, based on not wanting to snivel through an AAD fire and having two-out).

If a licensed jumper on the plane is planning on opening high (say above 4,000 feet) I will often ask they go with coaching/AFF students, or take the center of a formation. My concern that people don't start looking down until breakout, and with breakoffs typically between 4500 and 5000, people aren't looking down until then or shortly thereafter.

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That being said, I think the Pilot is by far the worst flairing canopy of the ones I have experience on. The Sabre2 and Stiletto are my favorite. You may not be ready for a semi-elliptical or elliptical wing yet. But even though they are faster and steeper glide, The landing flair power is very strong.

I used to agree, but having gone through some scenarios I think that's not really the case.

I think the Pilot, like the Safire 2 and Safire 3, have a much deeper "power spot". Something like a Sabre 2 or Stiletto seem to have a pretty shallow power spot. As a result, if your brake lines are too long, you won't really miss out on much flare power.

With the Pilot (or Safire 2/3), if your brake lines are too long, you'll miss out on the power spot, and the flare will suck. That happens on my Pilot 150. If I take a wrap, however, I get a great flare on my Pilots.

Is that a design flaw on the Pilots? (and Safires?) debatable. But now I wrap when I land (having played with 1 wrap, 2 wraps, nice and high) and it makes all the difference.

Hunterbeav

Hi everyone...looking for some input..I've been out of the sport for over 10 years and will be buying some gear in the spring. I did my recertification training and did a few jumps a few weeks ago.
Just a little history....I started jumping in 92 and my last chute was a sabre 190..my exit weight back then was 250 or so. I've been researching the sabre 2 210 my exit weight will be around 235 to 240.
I liked the flare and the flying characteristics on my old sabre. I'm wondering if the sabre 2 is about the same as the original sabre. From what I'm reading the openings can be long snivels with end cell closure and some line twist from time to time. Would appreciate any input from some seasoned sabre 2 pilots. Thanks Jim

Sabre 1s are interesting canopies. They're truly rectangular (no tapering of the leading or trailing edge, like Sabre 2s, Safire 2/3s, Pilots, etc.). They have a bad (probably well deserved) reputation for opening hard, sometimes catastrophically so.

Sabre 2s don't have a lot in common with original sabres from what I recall. I think John Leblanc (IIRC) said Sabre 2s might as well have been Stiletto 2s.

So to answer your question: What are you looking for? Softer openings (many necks, shoulders, and bones appreciate that), good flare, fast turns, etc. Or are you looking for consistent openings, a canopy that you don't have to think about, etc.

There's a lot of options now from PD and others depending on what you're looking for in a canopy.

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That being said, I think the Pilot is by far the worst flairing canopy of the ones I have experience on. The Sabre2 and Stiletto are my favorite. You may not be ready for a semi-elliptical or elliptical wing yet. But even though they are faster and steeper glide, The landing flair power is very strong.

Technically, the Pilot is a semi-elliptical canopy. The planform for a Pilot, Sabre 2, and Stiletto are pretty similar. Tapered leading and trailing edges.

This is from my canopy course slide deck:

mxk

Why transparent? I would want something that blocks UV light. As far as I know, a clear plastic bag is not going to do that without some special treatment.

I guess they could be opaque. Most of the bags I've seen used in this purpose are transparent, and the closets/drawers/bins do the job of blocking the UV light.

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why plastic when you can have ZP/F111 bags ? Ask your rigger Angelic (or your half blind grandmother who has some basic sewing knowledge)

I'm my rigger! Looking for those plastic bags though.

I'm tired of carrying around my disconnected canopies in trash bags (and the eyerolls they engender).

So where do people get those canopy-sized, thick, transparent plastic bags?

They're both fine helmets. I've tried on both, and the G3 fit better for my head. Others have had the opposite. The only real way is to try them both on and see for yourself. In most DZs that don't have a gear shop that can be problematic of course, but hopefully there's people around that won't mind you trying on their helmets.