MrHixxx 0 #1 May 22, 2003 I had the most violent and bizarre opening tonight. I just flattened out after videoing a student's deployment, looked at the horizon and threw. I felt the bag come off a little wierd then whabam. I was stood up with my chin pinned to my chest whipped around by one riser then whipped around in the opposite direction by the other riser (ragdoll style). Then I can look up and the canopy is just finishing opening into two line twists and I am on my back, but I am able to quickly kick out of it. Any ideas? I have a pull out deployment system and was wearing a winged top. The canopy is a Xaos 21 cell that normally gives me the most reliable openings of anything I have ever jumped. Thoughts? -Hixxxdeath,as men call him, ends what they call men -but beauty is more now than dying’s when Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cajones 0 #2 May 22, 2003 Could be one or more of a dozen factors. Slider creep, pilot chute spin-up due coming through your wing burble, etc.. As a side-note though - the thought of a pull-out with a moderate to large size wing gives me the creepies. Your PC is coming from the burble. I've seen at least one pale-faced cameraman land scared enough to get rid of his pull-out before he'd put his wings back on. This, in-turn, brings up another point I haven't mentioned in a long time... If you're jumping wings - you have a huge burble! Practice your emergency procedures, including good symmetry with wings collapsed! The laws of physics are strictly enforced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #3 May 22, 2003 I agree with captain Cajones. Did anyone at your DZ rasie an eyebrow when you said you wanted to jump a 98 Xaos with wings and a pullout and 600 jumps and a camera and a dis-proportionate 143 reserve? I know, there are alot of "ands" in that sentence but thats just the point. How many jumps do you have on with each of those factors alone? For intsance, with camera, but no wings, or tiny parachute? Or how about, wings w/no camera or tiny parachute? Tiny parachute w/ no camera, or wings, etc.? I'm sure you get the point (I hope). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrHixxx 0 #4 May 22, 2003 QuoteAs a side-note though - the thought of a pull-out with a moderate to large size wing gives me the creepies. Your PC is coming from the burble. Actually, my pc is clear of the burble and taken out of my hand by the airstream inflated. My pud bridle is only about 6 inches long and then you are at the base of the pilot cute. So, I am not sure to what variation of a pullout you are speaking to, but that is what I have. My first 3 jumps with the wingtop were without camera. I practiced deployments, rolled on my back and touched my handles etc... I was pretty methodical about adding wings to the equation. I jumped camera without it all last season. -Hixxx As for the pullout, I like the positive deployment of pulling the pin and having the bridle and p/c completely protected in the rig. Back in my throw out days (350 + jumps ago) I had several p/c in tows doing hop n pops out of Cessnas which kind of turned me off to the system. Sizing wise... I originally had a Cobalt 120 when the rig was bought. I understand and accept that my current main and reserve should not see air together. The scenarios with a pull out work with this as it is The only new addition for me is the wing top. I have a couple hundred with everything else. This is maybe the 10th or so jump with the top. The first 2 were solos, no camera, rolling on my back touching my handles, doing mock deployments, seeing how slow I could fall etc...death,as men call him, ends what they call men -but beauty is more now than dying’s when Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrHixxx 0 #5 May 22, 2003 QuoteDid anyone at your DZ rasie an eyebrow when you said you wanted to jump a 98 Xaos with wings and a pullout and 600 jumps and a camera and a dis-proportionate 143 reserve? I appreciate your concern. I have had a pullout for the last 350+ jumps. I do a lot of low jumps and did not like all the p/c hesitations I was getting from a throw out. Further, with high speed skydiving I like having everything in the container. I understand the system well and feel it is safer based on the types of skydives I do. My reserve is disproportionate, because the rig was originally made for the Cobalt 120 I jumped before this. I understand that the two canopies cannot see the air together. I do take solace in the idea of having a little more fabric over my head if I am knocked out. I deploy at 3000 and have a hard deck of 2000 because of this and the extras. I adjusted my deployment alts. when I started jumpin camera last season. I have a couple hundred jumps on the Xaos and a couple hundred on the Cobalt 120 before that. I agree my canopy progression has been fast, but that is what I talk extensively with other canopy pilots about and is one aspect of the sport I study the most. If I found the Xaos opened any less reliably than the Cobalt did, I would have kept the Cobalt for camera. This wasn't the case as they are both nice opening very reliable canopies. The only brand spankin' new factor this season is the winged top. As I stated earlier, I did solos with it before adding the camera. I am a firm believer in one addition at a time. thanx, Hixxxdeath,as men call him, ends what they call men -but beauty is more now than dying’s when Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #6 May 23, 2003 Seriously, not to give you a hard time, but the pullout is a great system, and for the last 350 jumps it has worked well, but the wings are the new factor here, and wings and the pullout don't always play nice. With a throw out, you can pitch the piot chute waaaay out there, where it will infalte far away from your burble. The pullout, as you said, gets yanked out of your hand as it hit s the wind, at the same time, you are extending your right arm, opeing up your wing. The pilot chute stands a good cahnce of getting sucked into the burble on it's way up. Even if it just wanders along the edge of the burble, it's not the clean air your pilot chute really wants. The opening you described sounds like the bag spun on the way to line stretch, which is what would happen if you pilot chute didn't launch clean. With a bigger canopy you would have had some harmless line twists, but with the Xoas, things got chaotic (no pun intended). With a good kill line throw out, and a secure pouch, you shouldn't have any problems. I've got 3500+ jumps with that system, and 3000 of those jumps are split between camera and freefly. As for low altitude, if you system is set up correctly, the speed of the plane alone should be enough to get your stuff out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pendejo 0 #7 May 30, 2003 There was a time when I made fun of the guys that jumped a "throw and hope". I had over 500 jumps on my pull out when I started flying camera. The problem I found was that it wasn't a weird deployment every time. About 8 out of 10 times it was a normal deployment and opening (If there is such a thing as normal outside of the setting on the washing machine). I tried all the things that you are describing. i.e. letting the pilot chute be taken out of my hand by the wind and so on. No matter what I did I couldn't beat the 2 out of 10 bad deployments (and yes I was flat, stable, and looking at the horizon). After about 50 jumps with the wings I bought a Mirage G3 with the freefly handle. I haven't had a bad deployment in the last 320 video jumps. I'm not saying the pull out is a bad system, cause I still miss mine for hop and pops (and all the other arguments that rage between the two deployment systems). We went up and did some video of me deploying. It showed the pilot chute leaving my hand fully inflated only to be sucked back into the burble (I jump a Tony jacket). One of the riggers said he felt it had more to do with the bridle length from the pilot chute to the d-bag than anything else. I'm not a rigger, nor am I completely sold on my throw out, but changing to the throw out did fix the deployment problems with my wings. Pendejo "guy who had the pale face" Rodriguez Pendejo He who swoops the ditch and does not get out buys the BEER!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrHixxx 0 #8 May 30, 2003 I had a new discovery that was a contributing factor in the opening. The tape with the pud handle eyelet on it came off of my bridle except for the last row of stitches at the base of the chute. This left my p/c trailing and extra 4 inches behind my hand which I think damn near left it on my back when I let go of the handle. I think I am going to experiment a little with body position before giving up the pull out. What do you think about crossing your arms across the chest with the legs out a little to change the airflow over the back a bit? -Hixxxdeath,as men call him, ends what they call men -but beauty is more now than dying’s when Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cajones 0 #9 May 31, 2003 If you cross your arms and stick your legs out, isn't this going to put you head-low? I have a strong preference for being a bit head high with a camera on my head. It reduces the impact on my neck. - Cajones The laws of physics are strictly enforced. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrHixxx 0 #10 May 31, 2003 Well, I was thinking having the arms in front will have me de-arched through my upper body enough to put the legs out a little... I was also thinking about stretching both arms out in front of me keeping the profile of the wing completely under my torso. I think more solos sans camera are in order. The Xaos doesn't stand me up that harshly, it is nice slow opener. So, that is a plus... I already have an idea to mod my rig for both deployment systems. It is just a bad time of year to do it with only one rig to my name. thanks for the thoughts, Hixxxdeath,as men call him, ends what they call men -but beauty is more now than dying’s when Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
