caerdydd 0 #1 February 3, 2003 So this is it, huh? The big showdown... bigger than "The Rumble in the Jungle", "The Thriller in Manilla", bigger than Spiderman v. The Green Goblin, badder than Godzilla v. any goodsize Japanese city, gnarlier than Jaws against Chief Brody, crazier than... okay, you get the picture... The two bestest, baddest, vented and valved canopies out there are about to go head-to-head, and we need an unbiased, "objective" opinion of how they compare. Kind of like the "mid-size sedan shootouts" you see in the car magazines. How are we gonna do this, we all wonder? Well, I'd like to propose that, from now on, gear manufacturers give, YES, GIVE (or at least LOAN) their newest gear to a panel of impartial testers (not just their own "test-pilots"). I think Tom Aiello should head the team, cos he's the most articulate and prolific writer in the BASE world these days. I'm not saying he's "the final word", but let's face it, when he offers an opinion, most of us want to hear it (or, rather, read it). I, for one, appreciate his efforts, and his apparent impartiality. Plus, he's out there JUMPING this stuff... a LOT! And so are a lot of people he knows! Now, I doubt that BASE gear manufacturers will give, or loan, their products to an impartial test team, because it's a risk. So what the hell? Let's all throw in a few bucks, so this test team can get started. Let's face it, when the time comes to lay down $2500, wouldn't you like to have read all about the pros and cons of THIS canopy over THAT one? Just a thought... OR, we can just wait for Tom to get ahold of a FLiK, of his own accord, and jump the heck out of it for us all. Tom! Your efforts are appreciated! Especially by us "armchair jumpers" who can't get out there as often as we'd like... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #2 February 3, 2003 I'll nominate 460 for the team as well. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyFlyer 0 #3 February 3, 2003 I think if you're going to do this sort of comparison you need to include the vented Troll with the monodirectional valve technology (MDVT) which is a pretty cool valve system. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dd0g 0 #4 February 3, 2003 Tom truly does a service to new-ish jumpers by sharing his gear knowledge publicly and in his trademarked, "articulate" style. I've learned so much from his postings, and I continue to look to him for solid thinking on nearly all technical issues in BASE That said, I'm on record here and elsewhere as a severe critic of the Blackjack/Ace, and I believe I echo the stated opinions of many experienced jumpers in this regard. Rather than burning hard disk space here re-hasing my personal opinions on this, readers can check in the Australian BASE Association forum for a detailed thread on this subject. I am a big supporter of Consolidated Rigging, and I have a deep respect for Adam's contributions to BASE over many years. However, I believe the Ace/Blackjack is a dangerous slider-up canopy, and while it is tempting for me to bite my tongue and keep my opinions to myself, I cannot in good conscience do so. I don't consider myself to be experienced or technically knowledgeable enough to say what the "best" canopy is (if there is such a thing); however, I've seen enough scary slider-up Blackjack openings to convince me it isn't safe for many of the slider-up jumps we do in BASE nowadays. Peace, D-d0g [email protected] http://www.wrinko.com+~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #5 February 4, 2003 For those of you who don't know this, Doug and I are actually quite good friends. We've had this discussion several times, and in lots of interesting places, including, but not limited to, hotel rooms in Malaysia, rooftops of buildings, rental cars in Amsterdam, and glaciers in Switzerland.In order not to bore you all with another re-cap of this evergreen debate, I refer you to (in addition to Doug's post on the Aussie Board, referenced above):Our discussion of BASE Canopies,My Blackjack Review at BLiNC,And whatever exit point we are having this discussion on two weekends from now.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bps 0 #6 February 4, 2003 Hi D-Dog -- I would like to talk to you about your concerns for a slider-up Ace/Black Jack. If you prefer to do it in a private setting, please let me know. I've been jumping the Ace and the Black Jack for quite some time now, and in my humble opinion, I've found it to be an outstanding canopy for slider-up jumps. For those who don't know me, I have a deep invovlement with CR Inc. I have been jumping their products for the last 4 years, and have been involved with the testing and development of many of their new products, to include the intial skydiving jumps on the airfoil that became the Ace/Black Jack, as well as approximately 50 BASE jumps on the Black Jack during its BASE development phase. With all of this said, I always look at things subjectively, and try to give my honest opinions on produsts, and not just a canned answer because I am invovled with the company/product. Also please note that I am not a spokeperson for CR Inc. -- nor am I all knowing -- the following is simply my opinions and observations. I've found the Ace and the Black Jack to be a fantastic canopy when it comes to slider-up BASE jumping -- especially in the sub-terminal range (3 to 7 seconds). In my opinion, the Ace and the Black Jack open faster in a slider-up configuration than any canopy currently on the market. I have been able to achieve and duplicate, near slider-down opening speeds in the 3 second slider-up range. I've also found the Ace, specifically, to open etremely clean and symmetrical when jumping slider-up. I consider the speed of the opening to be of great benefit in the 3 to 6 second range, where a canopy is exposed to the greatest dangers of an off-heading during the opening sequence. However, it's this same opening speed that makes the canopy open hard during a terminal deployment (9+ seconds). For this very reason, as long as I'm not pulling in the basement, I'll jump a sail slider on an Ace/ Black Jack when in the terminal range. (by being in the basement, I'm referring to releasing the pilot-chute at 350ft while at terminal) In every jump that I've made at terminal, or near terminal with an Ace/Black Jack, I've never had a problem with jumping a sail slider. And for the record, I'll only jump a sail slider with an Ace or Black Jack whereas with a Mojo, I'll always jump a mesh slider. It's also this same opening speed and responsiveness that I like when dealing with a slider-up off-heading opening -- the canopy is inflated quick and I'm able to respond immediately with corrective input. D-dog, you're a pretty sharp hound, so I'm sure that you have witnessed things to lead you to the opinion that you have today. I'm going to check out the ABA's forum and post (should have done it before writing this) and see what other's have to say. In the meantime, I'd love to hear your thoughts regarding the Ace/ Black Jack. Thanks, Bryan P.S. -- Strating this Wednesday, I'm taking a one-week break from my nasty skydiving habit and hitting the roadmap of objects in the great Southwest. I hope that we can hook up sometime on a futire trip and cause some mayhem together! :-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
caerdydd 0 #7 February 4, 2003 me again... um... i didn't mean to start a "for and against the blackjack" discussion, necessarily. i just wanted to suggest that an impartial panel of "experts" might be able to give some great comparisons / reviews of emerging gear. we'd still be free to disagree with them, and these kinds of internet discussions would still be where a LOT of knowledge and experience is disseminated... but i do think that the "shootout" concept, whether it's for canopies, pilot chutes, rigs, whatever, would be a valuable tool. d-dog would be another voice we would hope to hear on the panel. let's say, for example, you had a blackjack and a flik, in the same place, at the same time, for the impartial "experts" to jump, and rate against certain pre-determined criteria (mpg, 0-60mph, etc... just kidding) it would be a useful read. what we do now is similar, on these boards, but less formalized, with less cohesion, and often not in the "same time, same place, with the same new gear, same jumpers, same conditions, same judging criteria" format. oh, and not just CR and BR, of course... the Troll should definitely be in there... and any other gear from any other manufacturer, depending on the test in question... just like a car or mountain biking magazine... know what i mean, jellybean? i'll shut-up now... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #8 February 4, 2003 Quote...let's say, for example, you had a blackjack and a flik, in the same place, at the same time...Stay tuned. I've got fairly detailed plans to do exactly that, with video (and laser height analysis) with Blackjack, Ace and Troll within the next two months (sort of depends on weather). I'll also try to get manufacturers involved, if possible.I don't have a Flik to try, though. I doubt I'll be able to lay my hands on one before then. If I can document the tests well enough, it should be only moderately challenging to reproduce them once I acquire a Flik, but there will still be some weather variables that will be difficult to reproduce (or determine the effects of).It'll take some manpower to do the "boring" parts, though (filming, shooting the lasers), so good tests may be relatively infrequent.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dd0g 0 #9 February 4, 2003 I'll be ordering a 293 Flik in short order, Tom, so perhaps you can use that for your comparative matrix if it is manufactured in time. Regarding BPSs' feedback, let me briefly state (to repeat in part what I've said on the ABA site) that I have never jumped a Blackjack or Ace myself. Thus, I can't be relied on for impartial "this is how it feels to jump" advice. On the flipside, I've seen a half dozen different experienced jumpers under these canopies in a variety of conditions. Second, a very dear friend of mine, Dr. Nik Hartshorne, died under a Blackjack last summer (with a sail slider). I can honestly say that it is not possible for me to factor out my personal emotional investment in this situation from my objective analysis of the canopy's performance. In other words, I believe I have a "chip on my shoulder" with respect to the Blackjack. This may be impacting my judgment of the canopy inappropriately. Enough re-hashing of my personal thoughts, If you want the full spray, go to the ABA site and the link Tom provided to the bitch board thread. It's all said there, in gruesome detail. And, yes, Tom and I will probably continue to debate this particular topic in strange locales around the world for years to come Peace, D-d0g [email protected] http://www.wrinko.com +~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #10 February 5, 2003 The rest of this thread had moved onto the topic of secondary inlets, specifically on terminal canopies. I split it off into a separate thread here.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
