GaVak

Some friends and I are coming up with some creative jumps for the weekend and one of the suggestions is a Rodeo with people taking hand/leg docks.

I would assume it is as fast (or faster) than a tandem with no drogue out, thus requiring good free flyers for the dock positions - Light skinny/long guy for the base and maybe a smaller girl for the rider.

Thanks,
~Gav

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How's that going to help people that refuse to keep their eyes open for other jumpers?

Telling such a broad group of people to be 'more careful' with no enforcement or enhanced training/monitoring will likely be as effective a deterrent at getting people to change bad flying habits as the surgeon general's warning on cigarettes is at keeping people from smoking.

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Rules and regulations won't fix that. Education and awareness will.

A mandatory training program like AFF would ensure that very education was given, and the rating system would require experience to progress which can aid in improving awareness of how to do the more advanced maneuvers in a controlled fashion vs the pilot ending up a 'passenger' to their swoop.

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It's on the DZOs to MAKE collision avoidance a part of the culture at their drop zone (including enacting policies to mitigate some of the risk factors specific to their DZ). It's on the instructors and mentors to drill it into the heads of the less experienced jumpers. It's on EVERYONE to have zero tolerance for close calls and dangerous jumpers.

In a sport where the term ‘like herding cats’ is used frequently to describe getting a group of skydivers to do anything the same way or at the same time: How else besides a regulation are you going to get so many DZO’s to do anything other than to sign a useless pledge card to placate the USPA (and give the USPA their ‘out’ for not doing anything useful about the problem), give a canopy review class or two, then fall right back into business as usual when the ‘summer season’ starts? More to the point, in that same busy season, the most experienced instructors are likely to be in the classroom, on a load, or otherwise too occupied to give critique/feedback to the ‘experienced’ jumpers.

Even assuming they had the time, with the lack of ratings and training courses, this comment assumes that the instructors at every DZ are qualified to give advice other than the basic landing pattern instructions. A CPI (Canopy Pilot Instructor) rating would ensure there is a consistent and well documented training course for both teacher and student alike to refer to.

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Vigilance under the canopy needs to be taught from jump one and reinforced to no end. "See and avoid" needs to be just as much a mantra for skydivers as it is for VFR pilots.

I completely agree – but this does nothing for the lack of consistent training for canopy piloting after the AFF basics. It also does nothing to weed out the idiots who refuse to listen and go ‘DZ Shopping’ for a 'yes' after being told 'no'.

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Sure, you can regulate the danger away and make it impossible for people to hurt themselves. Keep going down that road, though, and eventually we'll all be doing our "jumping" in wind tunnels.

I'm as much for self policing as the next guy, but so far it doesn't seem that route has been effective. That’s why the USPA should do something other than send out ‘alerts’ before the FAA steps in. How many deaths this year so far?

~GaVak

We have licenses on who we can jump with, the time of day we can jump, and where we can land. Outside of pro/instructor ratings, we stop counting and licensing after someone hits 500 jumps and their D license; we have no ratings for canopy piloting skill levels. Just 'guidelines' left open to the subjective evaluation of DZO/DZM/S&TA's. How many of these are swoopers themselves with potential bias towards regulation?

The missing element is 'required' training and licensing. How hard would it be to implement a CPI role with the following license categories?

a) Jumpers who wish to do high performance landings - limiting the turn radius depending on X number of successful jumps in the previous level (90, 180, etc). Breaking the rules during 'student' status (say 90 degree turns for X jumps) is an instant USAT and requires the jumper to pay for/re-take the course.

b) Jumpers who wish to down size to a specific wing loading

Training and experience are missing -- so let's require it for the 'privilege' that is costing us lives.

~GaVak

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Last I checked most DZ's are held harmless regardless of what happens whether a camera or 'act of god'.

Very true but I still do not want to see someone die no matter how much $ its gonna make the dropzone.

I'm not sure I follow the statement -- are you referring to DZ's using low jump number camera flyers to do videography of students?

~Gav

The question seems to require one being settled down to give an answer -- I can see a lot of people not answering as there isn't a 'not settled down' option.

~Gav

A man is found hanging by his neck in a room in his own mansion. The room was completly empty, save the man and the rope suspended 20' off the ground. All the windows and doos were locked from the inside, and there was no sign of tampering with any of them (the police had to break the door in).

How did the man get his neck into the rope?

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Your experience is incomplete. First you have to make it to 200 jumps incident free with your camera before you can claim success at being 'ahead of the curve'.

I never claimed I was ahead of any curve -- I was simply giving my subjective perspective as it related to jumping with a camera.

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I plan to take my time in the sport.

I mean that I want to focus one specific discipline at a time and not burn out by hopping between them all without learning anything properly first. I'll not belabor the point I tried make that I'm capable of separating doing RW with a camera on my head and jumping to fly video -- it's apparently impossible.

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You're in a very dangerous position because you think you're taking it slow and being safe, when in reality you are not. You may feel as if things will be OK, but the 'proof is in the pudding' as they say, and your pudding won't be ready until AFTER you have survived your 'accelerated' behavior. As of right now, your success remains to be seen.

How is it that you have managed to compartmentalized your jumping such that you can both bust the USPA reccomendation, and claim to be taking it slow and safe? Is it some sort of denial? Are you choosing to ignore the obvious contradiction or your actions vs your words?

The primary saftey issue camera flying presents is loss of awareness -- I addressed the concern by making the camera on my head the least important part of my skydive. 30 jumps and running, I do my entire jump without the thought of a camera being on my head crossing my mind until I turn it off on the ground.

It works for me -- it hasn't changed my skydive but for 3 button presses. If it has somehow made my skydiving less safe, or changed it in any manner, then I'm under a pretty good self induced subjective illusion that it hasn't. What parts of my dive flow should I examin for the potentially lethal addition? Or will it be the rays of sunlight that reflect off the lens and burn my eyes out I need to be concerned with?

I don't care much for absolutes, and I feel like I'm banging my 'it hasn't distracted me' against an insurmountable wall of 'it must distract you, plus or minus suffering'. Why is it so untenable that someone can put a camera on their head and not think about it during a skydive?

Regardless -- you have my word I will update this forum if/when/how my camera impacted my skydive -- and of when I start jumping with the intent to film as the function of the skydive.

~Gav

Body wash since I was 19 or so -- soap bars leave soap clumps where they are stored that are annoying to clean.

~Gav

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I think a lot of times people don't realize how much of a distraction the camera is. Sure at first you're just gonna turn it on and forget it. I assume you have no indicator light so you just hope you turned it on before exit.

I got the hypoxic attachment for this reason. I push a button on my head twice and I'm done with my camera for the rest of the jump. Once when I put my gear on at 11k, second press when the door light comes one.

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Until you notice you're always looking too low so you fix that on the next jump by looking above what you want to see ... the cameras change our behavior.

In 30 jumps I haven't made any of these adjustments. I'm not trying to be a videographer -- I'm not ready for that discipline yet. I'm just flying RW with a camera on my head. I point my head where I always do in my skydive. A great view if I'm diving to a formation; a very boring view of the top of the guy across from me's helmet when in a base. Like clockwork, you get the flash of my altimeter center stage every 6-10 seconds.

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The idea behind a 200-jump recommendation (which is an absolute minimum for those that are current and on top of their game) is for building in awareness and good habits before letting a camera create poor awareness and bad habits.

I truly believe that many people would improve their flying skills by removing the camera for a while. Even if they don't think it's distracting them.

The reason for posting my first-hand experience on this matter is not to question the 200 jump recommendation; it’s just to highlight that as with most restrictions in the world, once size doesn’t fit all. Personally, I would suggest having a coaching requirement similar to the A-license track vs. a black and white line in the dirt at a 200 jump number. Most of the posts I’ve read on this site before getting my camera seem to be cased around individuals ‘aware’ of their camera while jumping and forgetting their basics: altitude awareness, proximity to other jumpers, basic gear checks, flare BEFORE the ground, etc. To me, these camera users were ‘trying to fly video’, which is not the same as skydiving with a camera on your head. Frankly, I’d be far more nervous of some young kid with 250 jumps bouncing up and down with his new camera talking about how bad-ass of a videographer he was going to be, how awesome his videos were going to be, and oh by the way could he jump with our 4-way while promising he wouldn’t “get in the way” than someone I know to be a level headed jumper with 100 jumps putting a camera on their head to help with 2-way drill debriefs.

I'm an analytical person, and have taken a very methodic approach to the sport. While many of my friends have shifted to free flying, are playing around with front riser inputs, or are chasing some other skydiving skill, I’ve stuck to belly and RW. I’m one of the only people at my DZ with a RW suit with booties. I received my coach rating two weekends ago so that I will have the ability to better my belly and observation skills while helping new students get ready for group skydiving. I have another helmet for these jumps – I don’t want to develop lazy free-fall observation skills and depending on camera footage for my debriefings. The camera is for when I'm more focused on my skydive than the other jumpers -- say when I'm trying to learn a new maneuver like a faster center point turn with my knees

I plan to take my time in the sport. At around 250 jumps, I want to start learning the basics of free flying. Once I’m comfortable with my ability to hold a slot in a sit and can transition from sit to back to belly without sliding all over the place THEN I plan to start learning the camera flying discipline. Knowing me, I’ll be at 350+ jumps before I’m offering to ‘fly video’ for another groups RW jump.

Skydiving safety is important to me. I would have loved to do a night jump three months ago at my home DZ – but as I was still renting gear of various sizes, I elected not to do so because I was not confident in the flight characteristics of any one set of gear to say I could make the jump safely. In conversations on downsizing canopies, I’m one of the proponents of not going smaller. Just last weekend, I was first in the door and ended up taking everyone for a longish spot because a cloud was obscuring the DZ below me and I wouldn’t let my group out of the door.

In my subjective skydiving experience, I would say getting an RW suit with booties impacted my skydive far more dramatically than mounting a camera on my helmet and adding a few button presses to my skydive. Certainly not to the order of the 'I did something very risky' and 'just happened to get lucky this time' type posts I've seen on this topic.

~Gav

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>
It would be great to have for the next "I'll just turn it on and forget about it" bumpkin.

I don’t agree with that being poor justification in every case.

I started jumping my Sony CX150 at 120 jumps with just that approach. I made it the least important part of my skydive, and that's exactly what it is. So much so that even 30 odd jumps with it later, a last minute change to an RW dive flow in the plane can make me utterly forget about turning it on before I go out the door.

My purpose in adding a camera to my jumps: I have several buddies I started practicing 2-way drills with earlier this year. They both have cameras, and their footage from our jumps helped me a great deal in correcting body position problems I was having. As it had such a positive effect on my skill growth, I wanted to return the favor.

I would never classify myself as someone with “Mad Skillz”, quite the opposite. It takes me many jumps to learn a specific body move, and I’m still dialing in 100% stand-up ladings with my current canopy. I’m in no hurry to learn anything specific, and I’m not trying to ‘prove’ myself to other jumpers outside of being in my allotted slot on a planed jump. I had nothing to prove with the camera either, I just wanted it to record footage while I was in freefall.

I did my research on this site and talked to a few instructors about the ‘200’ limit, and the biggest concern is ‘being distracted’ by the camera and failing to follow the basic skydiving safety routine you had pre-camera. At 120 jumps in just under a year, I couldn’t imagine waiting another 8-12 months before adding a camera to help my buddies out on our 2-way drills.

So my question for you: knowing my own limitations and by making the camera my smallest priority on my skydives, was I being reckless and/or unsafe in starting at 120 jumps?

~Gav

Blackberry pie -- when I was a kid, my mother would make them for us if we went out and picked the berries from the woods for them.

~Gav

Depends on which plane we are in -- normally 5 seconds + site picture of the previous group out. If there are unusualy high uppers, the jump pilot (a skydiver with thousands of jumps) or the S&TA will notify the instructors/fun jumpers of any special percautions to take.

I will say, having an extremely competent jump pilot does make for rusty spotting skills

~Gav

0:7:2

Beer owed for my first USPA teaching rating (Coach) and one I donated for a friend who had his first cut away after 4300+/- jumps.

It could have remapped your search settings.

Check: Tools, Internet Options, General Tab, Search Settings.

Remove any search engines you don't approve of.

~Gav

My recruiter said to me,
Say what you wanna be,
I wanna be lean,
I wanna be mean,
A US ARMY fighting machine.
...
82nd
Patch on my shoulder
pick up your chute and follow me
air assault infrantry

10th mountain
patch on my shoulder
pick up your ruck and follow me
mountain infantry

101
patch on my shoulder
pick up your weapon and follow me
airborne infantry

...

More PT Drill Sargent -- We like it, We love it, We want some more of it - make it hurt Drill Sargent, make it hurt.

One along the line of "Jodi's got your girl and gone"..

And I wonder,
What she's cooking now,
And I wonder,
If he's eating it well,
While I work,
All day,
And train all night,
In a different world.

And I wonder,
What she's doing now,
And I wonder,
If she's doing him well.
While I work,
All day,
And train all night,
In a different world.

...

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/2/1

I finished my 'A' License.

Gratz!

0:15:1

An excellent jumping weekend. Beer owed for my first 6-way hybrid.

I have never heard this site referred to as such until this thread.

~Gav

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I got my Sabre2 170 in my closet, the new Vector in the works, but I got an OPTIMUM 176 ordered thru Chutingstar a few days ago, didnt realise PD was selling dytters and in different sizes!

I blame the bottle of wine I got from the hotel bar -- I also seemed to have typed 'reserver' vs 'reserve'.

I just hope my rigger is done by this weekend -- I want to get in some good quality jumps before Skyfest next week.

~Gav

I get my first rig on Friday -- I can't wait to jump it this weekend as well.

Old Flexon '94 container while I wait on my Infinity -- they have a 20 week wait time right now. :-s

PD Saber2 170 with a PD Optima 176 reserver.

What will we all owe??? ;-)

~Gav

I used a hook-knife -- it was my first camera and helmet. I was impatient.

~Gav

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Skydive West Point in Virginia has a boogie on the 4th of july weekend and we have a CASA.

Just for the 4th, or do you always have a CASA? Everyone says they are awesome to jump out of and I've been wanting to give it a try.

~Gav

0:1:0

0:10:3

Did my 1st naked jump on my 100th skydive and got my B-license all on Friday.

Lots of awesome jumps and an amazing view of the half-set sun.

Oh, and it's a good idea to STAND up the naked skydives -- Grass + Ass didn't work out so well for me.

~Gav

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Due to money/time constraints, and trying to find a job in my field, I can't spend too much money on jumping, which equates to one or two weekends (one day each weekend) per month, in a best case scenario. While there are some GREAT people at my home DZ, there are a few regulars and even instructors who are somewhat snobby. I've heard comments like 'oh you're not a real skydiver, I barely even see you here' or 'wait, you actually have a license now?'.

I know that there's a lot of humor and sarcasm and wiseassedness that comes along with skydivers and skydiving culture, and I can definitely take it and give it. But, some people's comments are borderline offensive. Especially if they come from an instructor who, if you ask a serious skydiving question, would (or should) answer it seriously. But oft times, I get such a condescending answer, that I regret having asked the question in the first place.

Anyone else experience that? For the record, I have 65 jumps, and received my license in January of last year. If I could jump every other weekend, or even every weekend once or twice...I would.

At the end of the day, who cares what people mutter? If you are happy with your skydiving progression an the balance it has in your life, then problem solved. If it doesn't really bother you, then don't react to it... Semi or full bully personalities don't invest where they don't get the feedback/response they are looking for.

It's skydiving, not a numbers race. Have a good time, fuck the peanut gallery.

~Gav