SwampGod

I like a bunch of these!! I echo the concept that strong legs and a strong core are key in being a fluid sit flyer. We can develop those skills with transitions, which can jeopardize stability in a productive way. If you can stay stable and on heading when moving your arms independently, the rest of your body will start to become versatile as well.

The only thing I would add is to be aware of jump run. When people first learn sit, or head down... or even belly I reckon, there's a good chance that they'll backslide. Just something about how we roll, I guess.

So... If you face perpendicular to jump run when you do your solo, if you backslide it will likely be in a safer direction (away from others). We may lose the heading briefly during a transition, but if we return to the sit quickly enough, overall the effect of facing perpendicular is maintained.

Ok, that's all I gots. Thanks!!!

-eli

Ok, let me let my brain catch up.

It seems we have an issue. The solution could come in the form of more regulation or more education, or even both. Either way, said solution will then have to be communicated to everyone if there’s a chance of people following it.

The problem? Tail strikes are bad. Check.

So what makes a tail strike more likely? Exiting when the aircraft is flying faster than normal or climbing is riskier… as is using a large wingsuit, or exiting improperly in any type of suit (birthday included).

To manage this risk we communicate with the wingsuiters and the pilots (the two parties directly involved) to make sure we're minimizing said risk.

At our drop zone the DZO, S&TAs, Instructors, Pilots, and manifest help work together to keep things running as safe and smooth as possible. Therefore, all of the above would have our dz wingsuit procedures shared with them.

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Who should be making sure this stuff is followed? DZOs? AFFIs? S&TAs? What if that person doesn't know anything about wingsuiting. Serious question, not sarcastic.

Right now the heat has been turned up by the insurance companies. So I would say the first people that realistically would make sure this stuff is being followed would be aircraft owners. They would ultimately be responsible for the training of their pilots, as well.

DZOs and S&TAs work with pilots and aircraft owners (if they're not the DZO). I, as an S&TA, am motivated by the huge paycheck and fame.... wait.... something’s not right… start over.

Apart from the riches, I am motivated by safety. When in doubt, I consult my elders in the sport in the discipline they excel in. When no elders are present, I use the SIM as a reference. I'm fairly sure I'm not alone, but I may be the only one to admit it. :)

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I mean at a minimum, a lot of this stuff would have to go into the BSRs so that dropzones had to follow it. If the above mentioned person doesn't know anything about wingsuiting do we produce some kind of document to try and teach them? What if they don't want to learn, does the dropzone just ban wingsuiting?

I read and follow the BSRs, but also read and follow most of Section 6 of the SIM (Advanced Progression)… to prep for night jumps, brief on jumping cameras, and most recently talk to B License candidates about canopy control. I did not consult the SIM to learn about CRW or tail strikes... that teaching was all done by life.

I guess my point is that if no expert is available, we still have a section on Wingsuiting in the SIM, and there is even a part on exiting.

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SIM Section 6-9

D. Wingsuit exit and flight

b. The Coach should observe the exit to evaluate:
(1) the students’ stability; and
(2) that the student delayed opening their wings as instructed to avoid the horizontal stabilizer.

If the assumption that only an experienced wingsuit pilot can tell if someone didn’t keep their wings closed, I would not support that statement. However if I am misreading this, please let me know.


So... we have aircraft owners that have a huge financial incentive to make sure this is followed, and a couple of simple procedures to be followed, most of which are already in the SIM.

My question is… where will this stuff end up? Section 6? As a download on the website? In the mailing for Group Members? Again, the procedures involve more than just wingsuits, so maybe Section 6-9 isn’t the right place for this…


Because I believe the tail strike issue goes beyond mere wingsuits, the rest of your questions (“how do we make sure that a person is at least reasonable competent in the air”) pertain to wingsuit training specifically more than tail strikes specifically. I think they are good questions, but might belong in another thread. Let me know if I missed your point, though.

Later, all!

-eli

DSE - Is that "fight the bite" sign you attached posted on a low-tail aircraft, or are you referencing a policy on all airplanes? Well... all non-tailgate airplanes?

Thank you!

-eli

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I says - "When our DZO forwarded me (an S&TA) these e-mails, he was looking for a solution today, right now. What we came up with goes beyond the scope of what a wingsuit coach would be able to do when training newbies, as it also involves the pilot.

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Scotty says - "If I understand you clearly, you're saying that a proper FFC doesn't involve training/communication with the pilot on the part of the WS student and instructor?"

Gosh, that wasn't it at all. To clarify, what I'm saying is that a solution at our drop zone will involve not just the jumpers, but also our primary and visiting pilots.

We need to make sure we have a policy in place regardless of whether or not our drop zone is offering First Flight Courses. When looking at tail strikes, the configuration of the airplane on jump run can be a contributing factor, regardless of whether any wingsuits are on board.

My feeling is that this goes beyond the "do we need wingsuit ratings" debate. Even if there were ratings today, it would still go beyond them. First, as already noted, it's not all about the skydiver (the pilot has a role). Second, not every drop zone will have a wingsuit coach/instructor on site.... so there would need to be a solution independent of any training program. Not every drop zone that allows fun jumpers has an AFF or Static Line Instructor on site, and in those cases a protocol still exists for said jumpers. I'm just trying to find that protocol.

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How many people died doing wingsuit jumps with fewer than 200 skydives before 2010? At least 5....
How many people died doing wingsuit jumps with fewer than 200 skydives after 2010? None. That was the year of the BSR about wingsuits.
Did the BSR save lives? Maybe.

I was on site for two of the fatalities you are talking about, so this is very real to me. Both jumpers had just over 100 jumps. I have no problem with regulation per se, and feel the 200 jump BSR was an effective and thoughtful solution to a problem. We can't prove it, but I believe that particular BSR has saved lives.

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But from an insurance company view, it absolutely did stop fatalities, and proves that standards from USPA are at least having some effect, and that instructional standards would be most likely to have the same effect on the problem we currently see with tail strikes.

I agree that standards from USPA do have an effect. I don't agree that it proves ALL standards would have a positive effect. When it comes to tail strikes, education is part of the solution, to be sure. I'm not sure a factory or USPA recognized wingsuit instructor is the only person that can be teaching our pilots and jumpers this information, though.

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Regardless of what anyone wants to believe, the situation is real,

I agree, Scotty. Because this is such an important issue, we are looking for a solution that works now, today. So far it looks like that solution is going to be in the form of pilot training, reinforcement with wingsuiters of the known risk of tail strikes, and maybe even an agreement with people who want to wear wingsuits.

Thanks for reaching out, and keeping it on track!

-eli


PS - I received a very cordial PM talking to me about the downsides of mandating rolling exits. Just for ze record, when I quoted the other DZO in an earlier thread talking about teaching people to, "roll out of the door with the wings collapsed," I must admit I wasn't meaning to reference any particular style of perching in the door... just the concept of exiting with the wings closed. Hope this whole thing clarifies my thoughts. Thanks, peoples!!!!

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Insurance companies don't give a rats tail if a training program is put in place. They're bean counters! They only care about their investments not being put at risk.

Certainly but they charge premiums based on the associated composite risk score.

When our DZO forwarded me (an S&TA) these e-mails, he was looking for a solution today, right now. What we came up with goes beyond the scope of what a wingsuit coach would be able to do when training newbies, as it also involves the pilot. This is what it boiled down to:

"My advice - Make sure your pilots (and staff) know the benefit of wingsuiters exiting from a properly trimmed and cut airplane with their wings closed until they clear the airplane."


In another internet forum for DZOs I found what I believe to be the same concept... they just used better words:

"This is an easily avoidable problem. Make sure the pilots never fly a climbing, power on jump run, and make sure all of the wingsuiters are trained to roll out of the door with the wings collapsed. If this is done, they drop like a stone away from the airplane. If anyone at the drop zone teaching wingsuit flight is teaching anything else for an exit, they should be corrected, or not allowed to teach wingsuit flight."


So when mixed together, is the above protocol for pilots mixed with Section 6-9 of the SIM shaping up to be the "procedure manual for wing suit jumps" the insurance company is looking for?

http://www.uspa.org/SIM/Read/Section6/tabid/169/Default.aspx#69d

Thanks to all for putting our heads together on this one!!!

-eli

With regards to using to using toggles or rear risers, I try to simplify it for students and fun jumpers alike with the, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," approach.

That is, your canopies will most likely open with the brakes stowed. If they are playing nice together, there's nothing to fix, so go ahead and simply use the rear risers gently to steer. If they're fighting, it may be time to use the brakes on the dominant canopy, as it wouldn't make sense to try to push a dominant canopy around with a wimpy one.

This logical approach seems to... stick better than getting students to memorize a series of procedures.

-eli

PD also has a Navigator 300 with a max weight of 350. This canopy would also be more in line with PD's wing loading recommendations (max 289 lbs for students and novices).

-eli

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I was taught if you pulled and nothing happened- tip your shoulders and look back to see what's up- still nothing? chop first, THEN deploy reserve. you chop to avoid this exact scenario

We simplify emergency procedures for the First Jump Course. Muscle memory and acting fast are more important than trying to remember subtle details. So we teach students to cutaway first in emergency situations.

However, you'll find many more experienced jumpers (myself included) that would go straight to their reserve in a hard pull, low pull, or pilot chute-in-tow. In this case (I've thrown my pilot chute but nothing came out), I'd rather have a two-out than a main entangling in my reserve.

I'm not trying to turn this into a debate on which method is better, for there seems to be a fairly even split on how people would react. Just be aware that it's acceptable to not cutaway first in some situations, assuming you are situationally aware enough to act fast and PROPERLY.

Thanks!

-eli

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Oh and the most important part of "equipment" someone who TRULY knows what they are doing given the situation, and has the proper TRAINING. Dont find some ude who has been climbing trees all his life but has no clue thow to preform a rescue.

Typed this from my phone at work if youre TRULY interested then ill find you stuff more specific later.

I'm most certainly interested in the equipment, as well as advice on what to look for in proper training. Thanks so much!!

-eli

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The above quote was pulled from a PM. This is exactly why I think a DZ in a forrest area should consider putting together a tree rescue team.

Apart from the team itself, if a drop zone were to invest in gear, what would be on the shopping list?

-eli

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Ian, how many students, typically, are there in the air at any one time at your DZ?

(edited to add):
The reason I ask is to find out if it is simply a cost factor the dissuades the use of multiple radios with each student on a different set frequency?

Seems to me that one freq with multiple students is just asking for trouble.

Working with 2 students in the air at the same time, I have seen no problem with using the same frequency. We created a chart that we clip pictures of the student canopies next to their name, their AFF level, their instructors, expected exit order, desired input under canopy ("help with flare" versus "only if needed," etc).

It's not hard to use student names. If two people share the same name, we notice ahead of time and use their last name. If you forget the person's name, look down to the clipboard, find the picture of their canopy, and you're ready to rock again.

The problems I have with multiple radios or frequencies are functional, not financial. I always bring two radios out with me, in case one fails in the field. If there were 2 or 3 or 4 students on the same plane (multiple passes), this would require at LEAST 4 radios in the field, but possibly 6 or 8 depending on the system used. We have that many radios, but I don't see an easy way to have them all laid out in front of you every time.... especially if you have to move from your base to help a student that's not exactly landing where they should.

So the logical solution would be multiple frequencies, then, right? If the concern is remembering a student name, is there not the same concern with remembering which frequency each particular student is using?

The larger concern with multiple frequencies is that I've had multiple situations where I had to switch commands between students very quickly. We plan to avoid this situation, but shite happens (for example, students start to crowd each other down low):

"Johnny, check your altimeter and start your downwind at 1000 feet, Sally, turn left onto base, Johnny, you're flying away from the pattern turn around, Sally, turn LEFT.... Sally, turn LEFT.... Sally, YOUR OTHER LEFT, Johnny, you need to turn around and start the pattern, Sally, keep turning left, left left, Johnny stay away from the runway, Sally....."

The thought of doing that, and switching frequencies in between each command (or having two radios with two backups) makes me cringe. Is the above situation ideal? Hell no. We generally plan exit order based on wing loading and always train to NOT crowd the pattern.... but you know those silly students.

In addition, multiple frequencies means one more variable to check if the student isn't responding. If I don't get a radio check response ("Ok Bob, now that you've done your control check, please turn right if you can hear me. Bob? Bob? Please turn right, Bob, if you can hear me.")

No response. Is the radio muffled? Turned down? Too far away? Now I have to add "wrong frequency" to the list, which means I'd be tempted to start switching channels.... yuck.

I'm sure there are ways to use a radio with simple pre-programmed buttons or something similar, though I still don't like it for the above reasons. My bigger question is, why is it difficult to use student's names? If they're truly not responsive due to sensory overload, etc, usually saying their name will cut through the mental block heaps better than repeating "Student #1" over and over.

All of the practical aspects aside... I personally think knowing each student's name is.... well... the right thing to do from a human and professional standpoint. But that's largely irrelevant here, I guess.

Thoughts?

-eli

In 2002 I was first on the scene of an accident. The woman was unconscious and being choked by the strings on her hat (no helmet....). I used HER hook knife to cut the hat and goggles off her head, which allowed her to breathe easier without causing perhaps further unknown injury.

Not my use, but used in front of me-- in the middle of a CRW 16-way..... actually, maybe a 25-way, one jumper in the formation to my left got the top skin of another jumper's canopy wrapped around his foot, and the tension was too great to allow his foot to release. He used his hook knife to cut a small slit in the top skin of the lower jumper's main. The cut released the foot, and the lower jumper flew to a safe distance then cut away.

Those instances were enough to keep me jumping with at least one knife at all times. Later in the same year, I helped evaluate the video from a CRW wrap that resulted in a fatality. I cannot say for certain, but given the dynamics of the wrap, the 2 places I keep hook knives during CRW would have been completely inaccessible. I decided i needed at least one more knife located on a different quadrant of my body, especially while doing CRW.

-eli

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...those landing off have already proven that they cannot navigate very well. I don't think it is a good idea to give them financial motivation to make it back to the DZ when they find themselves long under a good canopy. Its better that they land off safely than try to make it back to the no fine zone and get hurt in the process...."

I do hope it all works out for the West Coast Wingsuit crowd, they have developed a fun and safe flying group over a lot of years.

+1

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Do you have a date set for this?
I may actually be able to get there this year. I've been trying to get there for 7 yrs.

Do it to it, this is the year. The lineup of organizers, vendors, and most important a bevy of excited people is gonna make it worth it, to be sure!!

The boogie is Wed, Sept 22 - Sun, Sept 26. People have been telling us they're coming in as early as Mon the 20th, though, to enjoy Arches or Canyonlands National Parks, go ATVing, horseback riding, rafting.... etc.

Off-site Cessna jumps start on Wednesday, September 22 and continue out of varying aircraft at least through Saturday. A guaranteed Otter, and very likely the Skyvan will be showing up on Thursday the 23rd. The planes go home whenever jumpers wanting to jump leave on Sunday, September 26.

Brewery action Thursday. Barbecue and Beer Friday. And disco madness with Sparklemotion (bring your outfit) Saturday.

It's right around the corner!!

-eli

Flying flatter in the tunnel, or arched but on the net are both very acceptable ways to learn how to fly your body. It's ALL body flight. And it all builds confidence and skills, no matter when you do it.

In the sky, we have students arch to a comfortable, stable arch and as instructors match their speed. In the tunnel, we start students with a slower wind speed and then turn it up. Very simply, higher wind speeds can be twitchier and therefore potentially more dangerous. Slower wind speeds require a flatter body and sometimes more extended arm and leg position than AFF students are typically used to, so it can be a little confusing at first if it's not explained that there may be some differences.

When we work on the net, it allows us to isolate the vertical component of body flight and just concentrate on horizontal and rotational motion. This approach reduces the enormous amount of information we're trying to process to more digestible baby steps. Plus, the resistance provided by the net forces people to exaggerate certain moves, which when done in a structured manner can be INCREDIBLY useful. I'll utilize both net-work and resistance training when I'm coaching people in the tunnel at any stage, not just newbies. I'll even use it on myself when I'm trying something new or want to make a particular flight orientation more solid.

The only time I've seen previous tunnel time detract is when the tunnel instructors didn't pay enough attention to leg awareness with a student and the person spent the next couple of jumps backsliding, but that is very rare.

In short (ha!), having worked with people in the tunnel and the air who do their tunnel time after 0 jumps or 20... I echo the sentiment that people who do tunnel time before their first jump are usually more confident in the freefall portion of AFF. This allows them to free their brain up for the technically more demanding job of opening and landing their canopy.

Not that freefall isn't demanding, but truly relaxing can solve most freefall problems. You relax too much and your landing... well... you'll land, I reckon.

All I know is I've taken an inflatable monkey on a mock AFF jump, and it rocked the freefall portion. The landing on the other hand...

Blue ones-

eli

We worked out jumps into Sorrel River Ranch Wed-Fri but we may try to extend it. When are you arriving and leaving?

Oh, and spread the word... Sparkle Motion is back, so bring your disco best for Saturday night!!!

-eli

Hey all!

If you're around Moab, Utah this weekend, there will be a helicopter in town!! Give the drop zone a buzz if you want to make a jump, and we'll keep it around for you!

-eli

(435) 259-JUMP

As many have already said, listen. But to expand on that, trust that he heard you and your desires as well, even if you think you're going down the wrong path.

Joe has a ninja style that surprises some. You'll think you're working on your leg position, and the next thing you know your turning better with your arms. If something seems repetitive, trust that he's doing it for the right reasons. He is.

Your flying thanks you.

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Not sure why you mixed the tandem stuff with the XRW stuff, Phil. At least for skydiver viewing anyway. The XRW jumps merit the attention; not the charity.

Watching the footage as it came in on the ground gave me chills. But so did knowing this awe-some flying raised money and awareness for a great cause.

Though not an obvious pairing, both the skydiving and charity sides of the event worked as a team for the larger cause. Where else would such an assortment of personalities converge for such an unique event? The video reflects the range of activity that went on that weekend, which I find rather appropriate.

-eli

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Didn't Luigi Cani and Jeb Corliss do something similar a few years ago?

absolutely right! the image is seared in my memory, as i'm sure it is for many others.

i have a few other snapshots in my brain like that... like seeing Olav flip and flop around a belly round in crosswind. or watching Loic Jean Albert surf down a snowy slope. even recently seeing a wingsuit navigate a slot canyon in "Ready to Go."

these have been magical scenes for me. ones where my conception of what was possible was challenged. not just in skydiving... but beyond.

i came out of this last weekend seeing a few more of those images, and believing that anything is possible... with the possible exception of cheesecake that make you lose weight.

our advances in technology, our ever-broadening skill-sets help make all this possible. as does learning from the past, and honoring it as part of the history.

after seeing what went into all of this, i am personally even more impressed with Jeb and Luigi's vision, talent, and drive than i was before. i am also excited about what new idea may lay around the corner.

Project XRW, and all the parties involved took my breath away this weekend. it reminded me of why i fell in love with the sport in the first place.

i simply love it when people push what is possible. i love the evolution of thought. and i love it when seeing pictures of skydiving gives me goosebumps.

thanks to all for a great weekend. simply amazing.

-eli

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Maybe if you, as one of those in the "dark and windy day" meeting had let some wingsuiters know what was going on...but then again, aren't you on the board of Raise The Sky? If so, I do understand the need for secrecy.
...
Maybe that's what you and Raise the Sky forgot about. It's about the people, not a picture object that isn't objective.

DSE, et al - I'm not quite sure what to make of these two comments, but they don't seem good. I apologize for the thread drift, but as a board member of Raise the Sky I cannot let statements like this go unanswered.

I believe there are a series of misunderstandings at work. I know the organizers and proponents of the grid listen and incorporate the ideas of others more than they publicize. I'm sure there are things misunderstood about the proposal from the Netherlands, as well. It is not the purpose of this post to clear up those misunderstandings, though.

Though it may not be apparent, there is a difference between Raise the Sky and "the grid." I understand the confusion, as most of the board members of Raise the Sky are accomplished wingsuit pilots, and a couple were directly involved in the Elsinore record. As a facilitator of events, registration and frequently asked questions have been funneled through the website.

However, I am but a wingsuit newbie. My participation in the Wingsuit Record was part of a deep commitment to bring skydiving and charity together. I'm currently working on a tunnel event, with the hopeful goal of getting kids to actually fly as well. You'll hopefully see tunnel registration and event FAQs start to appear for tunnel flying on the Raise the Sky website, as well.

I know many consider skydiving to be a self-indulgent activity. My hope is that the things we do can benefit others, both in terms of financial support, but also by showing people with little hope that anything is possible.

"If we can fly, you can graduate," was not just a catchy phrase. I truly believe being honest with children about my own fears (I don't like "low" heights) can help them face theirs.

So far I have spent far more money than I ever expect to see and received no fame, but will continue to work hard bolstered on by many people saying "thank you," and the idea that there is good to be found in this world that I would like to be a part of.

I have come too late to the party to know or understand the entire story. It is clear there is some bad blood.

Please do not let wingsuit bad blood spill into an organization that I truly believe is working for good.

Thank you all for your time.

-eli

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>You are making it sound like high winds have no affect what so ever on your canopy.

They don't. You could be in a 600mph jet stream and your canopy wouldn't know the difference - PROVIDED that the air you were flying in is always moving at the same speed. When it changes rapidly, we call that turbulence.

Is there a reason we don't consider momentum in these conversations? A 200 pound human traveling at 600 mph would have considerable momentum.

I'm thinking specifically of how an individual would swing out from under the canopy when starting a sharp turn from a 0 mph ground speed versus a 45 mph ground speed.

My brain is struggling with visualizing, let alone calculating whether or not there would be a difference, not to mention a noticeable one. When the winds are that high where I jump, turbulence would crush any other more subtle factors.

-eli

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As an experienced skydiver I can flat fall fast in my free fly suits...although as a beginning skydiver I'd be stiff and slow in the suit (which would mean trouble getting in), and wouldn't have stayed level that far outside my neutral fall rate.

Hmmm.... in your opinion, is this a function of being a freefly suit with a closed leg cuff and no booties, or simply because it's baggy?

There are a number of people in this thread who feel beginners should use a belly suit. What about a tight freefly suit? Many modern freefly suits are quite tight. Or what about simply any suit that puts you at an average fall rate for your drop zone?

For what it's worth, I've heard some people tell beginners to wait on booties, and simply fly a suit with grippers, as booties offer quite a bit of drive that is difficult at first to manage. Is that a silly notion?

Thanks!!!

-eli

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The question is, is there any reason not to buy a freefly suit and just use it for belly flying?

There are reasons, to be sure... though depending on your budget and the "rules" of the local dz, a freefly suit with small grippers could be a nice all-around suit with some limitations.

A freefly suit will not have the leg drive that booties will offer. In addition, a freefly suit without grippers will likely result in many pinches on the back of your leg when people try to take a grip. It's a short-lived pain, but you know it when it happens.
That being said, my first and only suit for years was a freefly suit without grippers, and I was able to fly to my slot on my belly once my skill level allowed it.

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I'm not going to start freeflying for quite a while since I'm still not close to good enough at belly, but I know belly suits don't work for freeflying (why is that, incidentally? Just less drag?).

In my neck of the woods, most people would say a belly suit has booties, but that doesn't have to be the case. Some belly suits have leg cuffs that are simply pant-like and left open. Most would agree that they at least have large arm and leg grippers.

Historically, freefly suits were baggier, but that is changing. Even my original Hanne suit is my "fast" suit while doing AFF.

To answer your question, in my mind, you can freefly in most any suit that has closed leg cuffs and small leg grippers. In a sit, an open cuff will inflate and can ride up to the knee, and large leg grippers will give you all sorts of funky drive. You're fairly well limited to knee flying if you want to fly head-up with most booties.


I agree with the general consensus that you dress for success, so your next suit should put you at a middle-of-the-road speed on your belly. You should have jumped with others enough by now to know whether you need to speed up or slow down. The "speed" of your suit will depend on the bagginess and material of the suit, whether it has booties or not.

Since it seems you will mostly be belly flying this year, grippers do seem like a good idea. Booties are up to you and your budget - they're not as versatile, but certainly seem to be the better tool for the job (belly relative work) once you learn how to use them (so I hear, I've never owned booties).

For what it's worth, I've been doing more belly flying lately, so I added small arm and leg grippers to my new Space Suit from Tony Suits, but do not feel I do enough hard-core belly relative work to justify booties.

-eli

it seems some folks have actually read through the "climategate" e-mails. anyone care to comment?

http://factcheck.org/2009/12/climategate/

thanks!

-eli