Nerra

danielcroft

It's misleading if you're inclined to see it that way. My personal experience is that, most camera flyers fly HP wings. I have several friends who fly Petras as their camera wing because they want to swoop and can do so on every jump. To me, I don't really think PD is far off the mark when NZA has a wing that will not last super long that camera flyers use, that's not even the lines that are failing, it's the material. I'm not trying to criticize NZA here, sail just doesn't last as long as ZP. Not everyone only gets 150 jumps out of OV500 lines. It's definitely been a problem that PD has tried to correct but, I know people who've got a lot more.

I personally replace my lines early compared to what most people say I should. I don't want to take the chance when it comes to tension knots (potentially caused by the opening sequence and contributed to by the fuzzy vectran lines) so, I replace early; I've yet to have tension knots on my VK. I know plenty of people who have, though. I jump mostly in SoCal so, my lines should be expected to wear out super fast but, I load my VK79 @ 2.2 so, lighter loading in theory should give me longer life. Who knows how much, though.

I guess I just don't agree with your reasoning in grouping the VK with a Sabre2 in terms of general use, we're talking about the highest performance wing available to the general public from PD. That's not to say that it's great for the lines to be done in 150 jumps but, I think that we've really not got enough data points on the new lineset to come to a conclusion as to whether the OV500+OV300 outers or HMA500 lines will make a difference for people.

The analogy that I generally use is taking race tires and using them on a fast street car will give you more milage that taking those same tires and using them on a race car. The VK flies faster than a VE/VC there's more wear, that results in reduced longevity of the material.

I can agree with that. For what it's worth, I just bought a VK, so I very much want this issue to be resolved and am rooting for PD to be successful in doing so.

I'd be happy if I can get 350 jumps on a set of lines on the VK. Safely though, I don't want to be super worried between jump #250 and #350 because the lines look terrible. Is that an unrealistic expectation?

'All purpose' may have been the wrong wording but this canopy is definitely marketed way differently to that of the Peregrine.

First of all, PD lists it under 'mains' along with the VE, Katana, Saber etc, not 'Specialty mains'.

It then goes on to say on the VK webpage... "Whether you're filming tandems all day" and "Great for camera flyers".

That's a little misleading if you're expected to replace the lines every 150 jumps.

As for angryelf's comments, comparing a VK to the VE is not the same as comparing a truck to a race car. The leap is not that big.

The pilot analogy is also weak. It's more like a G4 pilot flying a brand new G5 with the expectation set from Gulfstream that the range is similar to that of the G4 and then the pilot running out of fuel halfway to his destination.

As for blaming tension knots on shitty packing technique and inexperienced pilots, I'd be careful where you go there. You think at 450 VK jumps that somehow you've figured it out and that you're immune. It's this very mindset that catches people out in this sport with any sort of experience.

As someone who is about to buy a VK, I really hope they have figured this issue out. On an all purpose canopy I expect around 400 jumps out of a line set. I don't think that's unreasonable. 150-200 is pretty bad unless you're flying comp lines on a petra or something similar.

Daniel, when will you be installing the HMA500's?

Exactly what skydivecat said, go to the tryout camps. Bear in mind that if you're not good enough you'll get cut. This can happen on jump number one and that means you lose your registration fee and all the money it's cost you to get there.

The same goes for the actual record, getting an invite doesn't mean you won't get cut. There are plenty of people that went to tryouts, earned an invite and have now been cut while in Chicago due to not performing well enough.

roam82

Hi!

I heard of people getting non-articulated rigs for freefly so it dosent move as much when flying...Any thoughts on that?

I like the idea of a tight/solid rig on my back when angle/head down flying but I want to know what you guys think before ordering a new rig!

thanks,

R

It's the chest ring articulation that causes issues. Just skip that option and save some money.

I have an Infinity and a Vector. The shoulder straps on my Infinity which has the chest rings sometimes creeps off to the side when angle flying. My vector doesn't do this.

Rick

***this thread is ridiculous...

+1

OK poster comes on to vent about a perceived bad customer service situation and gets accused of

1) flaunting his financial situation
2) trying to rip off a starving rigger
3) harassing the poor salesperson after just having lost her father


did I miss anything?

That's it... for now

Tune in for the next episode where I receive the rig and swoop down double dropkicking a line of starving cambodian children* to the floor before setting the whole thing on fire and sending it back to store with a letter of complaint.

*Imported for this one time stunt using my disposable income of course

Nataly

As someone who read your thread the minute you posted it (and before it was edited to further explain/justify your position), it seems to me you have been sticking to your point of view the entire way through. Now there is nothing wrong with that, and it doesn't mean you have not considered different perspectives, but by continuing to insist the store overreacted and was in the wrong, you come across (at least to me) like you are essentially dismissing all opinions except your own.

Thanks for the long post Nataly, much of what you say is very valid.

Just to clarify, the original post was edited for a typo 6 minutes before the first reply so there was no further explanation or justification. Everyone who has replied, has done so directly in relation to the post as you see it now. I also haven't continued to insist the store overreacted. In fact I don't believe at any point have I complained further about the store or defended my reaction.

The only thing I have continued to do is correct people's assumption that I expected a rigger to work for free. How people ever came to that conclusion especially when I spelt it out in the original post, still baffles me.

quade

***Freaking out on a customer for requesting a small discount is pretty unprofessional.

We still only have his word on that.

I haven't named the company so what would I gain by lying?

normiss

Fully agreed John. It never hurts to ask.
I'd be taken a bit aback had I fully delivered a deal and someone wanted more, hopefully I'd be more tactful than simply exploding on a customer.
But getting butt hurt from being told no, then coming here to complain, and dismissing opposing views....kinda seems like the valid points will always be overlooked.

Please show me where I dismissed opposing views to my actual complaint?

I wasn't getting 'butt hurt' about being told no, I was annoyed at the way in which the company representative reacted to my request.

It's perfectly clear if you read the thread that some people completely missed the original point and decided to join the witch hunt, you included normiss.

The real loser here is still the company and the rigger for that matter. It seems from the private messages I've received that there are a ton of other companies that would have been happy to give me a discount and would have happily paid a rigger to pack my reserve had I spent that amount of money with them.

Instead I will no longer buy anything from there, will not recommend them to any friends or new jumpers. I would make a point of steering them far clear.

In case you've still failed to read the original post, here it is again. I would love for you to enlighten me and tell me where I was making a request to warrant such a response.

Nerra

Over the last month I've spent over $7000 at a popular online skydiving store and paid full retail price on every item. Naturally I asked for a little bit of a discount at the end. The curt response I received was that they absolutely cannot do any discounts due to rules set by the manufacturers.

I accepted that and then asked if they would be willing to cover the reserve pack job. At $60 that would equate to less than 0.85% discount on the total purchase.

Well... you would think I was asking for this woman's first born! She went off on one telling me how she doesn't get free reserve pack jobs even though she works there and how I shouldn't be trying to take money away from the riggers.

Hopefully it's obvious to everyone else that I wasn't expecting a rigger to do it for free and that I was asking the store to cover it. I'm pretty sure the full $60 doesn't go to the rigger so the real cost to the store is even less.

Was my request unreasonable?

Glad to see this debate is still going strong like the proverbial bonfire

Thanks again to the folks who brought a bit of reality to the thread and weren't afraid to oppose the angry mob

I was reading something over the weekend (completely unrelated) and stumbled across the Straw Man Fallacy. It instantly made me think of this thread.

JohnMitchell

If you get out to Kapowsin Air Sports in WA, look me up and we'll make a jump or two.

Thanks John, most certainly will!

Well I slept on the issue and refrained from posting.

I'm glad some balance seems to have been restored to the thread.

My main frustration with this thread wasn't the difference in opinion or even that people didn't agree with me, it was that people were continually getting side tracked and insinuating that I was expecting a rigger to work for free despite me continually stating otherwise.

I'd like to state one more time, and please feel free to read the original post along with all my other posts to see that this was always the case...

I did not ever expect the rigger to work for free, I was asking the store to cover the cost as a gesture of goodwill for my continual business.

I do wonder how the thread would have gone had I not mentioned 'pack job' and just said '$60 discount'.

This isn't my first rig but it is the first time I've bought all new components of a new rig all from one place at the same time... beer?!

Anyway - thank you all for chipping in - I'm sorry if I offended anyone - bad karma and skydiving aren't a great mix.

quade

***Things I have learned from this thread...

Things you still seem to have not learned.

1) Prior purchases do not entitle you to anything other than the standard rate.
2) Never ask people their opinion unless you're willing to hear it.
3) A person makes their own hell.

1) Never did I say I was entitled to anything. I asked if it was a reasonable request. I still believe it was. The company isn't obliged to give me any kind of discount and neither am I to shop there again.

2) I heard every bit of it. Some opinions I took on board and others I didn't.

3) You obviously have first hand experience of this judging by your general people skills.

LuckyMcSwervy

Are you worried about the gear store reading what you've posted here and not wanting to do business with you any longer? What about the rigger(s)?

Just curious.

I presume this is in reference to me not naming the establishment?

I'm sure if they were to read this they could work out very quickly who I am.

I started the thread not to name and shame but to see if I was being unreasonable in the eyes of other skydivers.

It seems that I am.

Things I have learned from this thread:

1) It is completely unreasonable to ask for discount ever.

2) It is up to the customer to build trust and rapport with the retailer, not the other way round.

3) Large groups of people easily become single tracked about an issue taken completely out of context which would explain how someone like Bush was re-elected or even elected in the first place.

4) There is some underlying sore issue between riggers and retailers that I'm obviously unaware of.

Nataly

***As a business though, I would expect them to make the link and not see this as an insult to one of their riggers.

But you are the one who made the link between "discount" and "reserve repack"... Put the two together, and I get "free reserve repack." And that sounds like you are asking the rigger to work for free.

This is what the lady thought, this is what a lot of posters here thought, this is even what I thought initially. Plus you immediately start the thread with "free reserve repack" right in the title!! No matter how many times you explain it, the first reaction sticks. And the first reaction is that it is not reasonable to ask for a free reserve repack.

So again, your approach was flawed. In my opinion. You would have had a better reaction had *you* approached the matter differently. Again, just my opinion.

I get what you're saying and in this case you're right judging by the replies.

I do think that in any other industry, it would be a non-issue. In snowboarding you get wax jobs, biking you get services, cars you get you oil changes. All of these are performed by hard working people that deserve to get paid. They still get paid... the company that is operating at a profit swallows the cost.

Someone mentioned free shipping... how is that any different to asking the company to cover the cost of a reserve pack? judging by the logic in this thread we're now saying it's okay for the UPS guy not to get paid. But we wouldn't think that because we assume he will still get paid and that it is the shop that swallows the cost of the shipping.

normiss

Yeah. I'm the one missing the point.


I paid for my first reserve pack job.
Without bitching about it.
Or going on the internet an whining about it.

I'm glad I missed the point come to think of it.

19000+ posts. You win buddy!

Nataly

Here is the key: *after* spending $7000, you have no negotiating power left. You should have requested a discount *before* spending that kind of money.

Also, unless I misunderstood you, I get that it's not that you wanted a free pack-job specifically, but rather there was a cost left of $60 and that you consider a $60 discount to be perfectly reasonable considering a total purchase of $7000. However, aside from it being "too late," there is the added problem that "$60 discount" sounds reasonable, but "free reserve repack" does not. Yes, technically $60 is $60, but associating a discount with the reserve repack was the wrong approach. In my opinion.

So the problems were: 1 - timing, 2 - perception/justification.

Thanks Nataly, this is actually a good point and you're right, timing and perception are important.

As a business though, I would expect them to make the link and not see this as an insult to one of their riggers.

It would have been completely different if I had approached one of the riggers directly and been like, "Hey buddy, pack my reserve for free because I just spent a lot of money at the shop you work at".

quade

***But what can I do as a 'customer' to build rapport other than purchase goods and smile?

Metaphorically put yourself in their position and attempt to see things from their point of view before complaining too hard.

Okay...

There is a customer in front of me who has happily spent over $7000 with me in the last couple of months and hasn't requested any form of discount. He has come back to purchase an item to the value of $1500. He is requesting a $60 discount. What a self-centered individual trying to take the food out of my mouth. Be gone fool!!


Well I completely understand where you're coming from now. I should have done that before, put myself in the shoes of that poor business owner.

normiss

Yeah..so..it would be unreasonable to even ask a stealership to cover the cost of making my vehicle legal.
Just like the rig I bought.
That I paid to have assembled.
As well as made legal.


Good luck with riggers and packers buddy.

You're missing the original point because you keep going on about the riggers.

No rigger is being short changed.

No rigger is expected to do the work for free.

No one thinks the rigger is charging too much.

No one questions the value of a rigger.

This is not about the rigger. This is about asking a company who has just received over $7000 in business to comp a service charge of $60.

What that service is is completely irrelevant. The person performing that service will still get paid.

normiss

No, it's an exact comparison.

You purchased an expensive item and now are required to pay a fee for a person to perform work to make the item legal to use.

Then you go to the internet to bitch about it.

I'm sure future riggers in your path are appreciative of that effort though.

SMH... read the original post.

GooniesKid

***Just how many purchases need to be made in order to be considered a "loyal" customer?

For me, it's not about the number of purchases but about building a rapport with a local business

But what can I do as a 'customer' to build rapport other than purchase goods and smile?

wildcard451

For everyone telling him it's unreasonable, give me a fucking break. When I go car shopping, negotiations are perfectly fine and if I'm paying cash or what not, you can be damn certain I am going to ask them to toss in something to sweeten the deal. It's great negotiation tactics.

Thanks buddy.

GooniesKid

Loyalty, however, CAN be bought.

Sell out.

I can't believe that in an industry where people are literally saving lives with the work they do that you're so quick to sell out. What kind of terrible person are you?

LuckyMcSwervy

*********Was my request unreasonable?

Yes.

You just admitted you have (or at least had) $7000 in completely disposable income. You are a fortunate individual.

It is particularly douchy to flaunt that in the faces of people and ask for "free" services from people who work hella hard to provide a service that saves people's lives.

Think about what you just wrote next time you request or are offered something at less than full asking price.

Yes I spent $7000 - I wouldn't call it disposable income, more like a solid two years of really hard work, saving and sacrifice.

Assuming that I'm wealthy because I bought a new rig is a pretty douchy thing to do.

I just wanted to say good for you for saving for something you really wanted instead of throwing it all on a credit card.
Thank you.

quade

***In any other business, asking for a 0.85% discount wouldn't be classed as unreasonable.

AFTER a deal has been made? You're not asking for a discount. You are attempting to justify your request in terms of a discount, but according to your own account you had already agreed to the deal. That being the case, you are not asking for a discount. You're asking for a business for $60.

Let's turn that around and suppose you had ordered and paid for the gear, went to pick it up and the gear store decided to charge you $60 for "delivery." How would that go down with you?

Yes and no. I was actually about to purchase the reserve canopy (everything else had been paid for) and I asked for a discount to which I was told no because the manufacturer doesn't allow discounts. I didn't argue with that, I then asked if they could comp the reserve pack.

I terms of pure salesmanship and bargaining power, yes maybe I should have twisted their arm before handing over any cash and that's something I might do before buying a used car from a car dealer that I will probably never go back to again. However in this case I have bought equipment from them in the past and I had planned to continue buying equipment from them in the future. It's an ongoing relationship.