andymarch

Depends on DZ I guess. In my case they made a facebook event this May, and were waiting for 10-15 people to attend to run the course, but then it was

$100 per person for class
$96.00 - two eval jumps
$35.00 - rating fee
and I've borrowed a book from a friend.
Course was Fri night and both full weekend days. So you might check if they make a discount for more people and ask around.

gearless_chris

...and landing the wrong direction in the wrong place on a night jump.

Landed short, but never wrong direction at night.

thomas.n.thomas

So, hopefully things have changed since the initial posts. Just consider that you can't have the mindset that things are going to go according to plan with those other canopies around.
<...>
Now, as for the F/A-18 analogy. I'm no flight instructor, but I'm pretty dang sure that the guy in charge would go follow NATOPS, and he is not going to short cycle some guy and dump the manual all because, "this guy is really good, and he doesn't need those pre-reqs."

Yes, hopefully things have changed, jump numbers is where we get into various situations, conditions and get experience. However F/A-18 analogy is for slightly different point: to put someone in charge of it, yes, certain training is required, but not the hours alone. I've seen examples when some has 1000 jumps on 190 that I wouldn't suggest to downsize, as well as people with 400 jumps that fly sub-100 and don't make me worry. I would never say, make 1000 jumps on 150, then you are ready for 135, without seeing, how are the patterns, flat turns, 90s.. well Brian's check-list for example; what the person is working on and what are the limiting factors if any.
So, "PATTERN, awareness and canopy classes" is a good feedback, "make 400 jumps on a bigger canopy" - not too progression or goal specific.

freekflyguy

One question, did you really hook up and pack your reserve and main without hanging either canopy to do a line sequence check?

It's a friend of mine, who re-packs the reserve and hooks up main. He is a rigger, and packs reserves all the time, has quite a few saves too, so I have no reasons not to think he's a good one. Always does very thorough inspection and has detailed systematic approach, which is kind of hard to see by the process that took 2 hours and then crammed into 1 min time lapse :)

-ftp-

whats your goal of posting this on here? And please don't feed a BS line of "to learn."

Why do people ever make and post skydiving videos on youtube? Showing-off, of course! I do love my videos and am proud of my progress.
Here's a few tunnel videos, because we're so awesome :)
Blocks training: http://youtu.be/6KFH0wNIFsk
Before Nationals: http://youtu.be/2IyZIjoOYZ4

Besides, you know the saying: if it's not on GoPro - it's a PLF :)

On a serious note, I wasn't the one who posted here originally, but the response did help a lot. So the main reason is to get feedback and sync my goals with people with knowledge who've been where I am now. Not so much on this forum, but several local friends and people I've personally met while jumping, watched my landings and gave more specific drills, points and hints (even a simple 'landing # - start leveling earlier, but slower next time') that improved my flying a lot!
Not sure, what could be the other goals, really.

FB1609

I enjoyed the vid, you seem to be progressing with optimism. At your rate I can see you base wingsuit prox jumping pretty soon and posting cool vids. Nice job on the base landings by the way.

Careful though, maybe making that vid pushes you to progress a bit faster than a non documented progression would. It only takes one mistake...and seriously, you have very little experience, a fact shown by your jump numbers.

Thanks!
Wing suit proxy flying is one of my dreams, I do realize lack of experience, so for now just working on pieces and getting mileage. Another 300-400 jumps on Katana, eventually moving to 270s. I have 30 wing suit jumps and a docking camp on P2. Plan to get more experience, then move to Havok that's on the way. Also in the plans go to Perrine bridge for a few days. Definitely, 4-way Nationals next year too...
To much fun awaits (besides skydiving too), not to be careful :)

NWFlyer

Maybe so. Just hope he (and all the other Mad Skillz crowd) doesn't take out one of us grumpy old farts in the process.

Hi Kris Yes, that's why canopy courses, these conversations and peer coaching is so important. For one guy that posts his "kool swooping" video on DZ forum, there is ten if not hundred more all over the country that acquire skillz on their own

Wanted to start a new post in swooping forum, but it's more technical and specific questions there, while this is not really swooping and still matter of general safety and training.

First of all, I'd like to thank all of you again for feedback, any feedback, very, very helpful indeed. This is probably the most important advice I carried from this: showing your progress to experienced people, the more the better corrects you attitude, goals and most importantly delusions; and is not only critical for everyone's safety, but greatly improves the learning curve. So I plan to keep you all posted.

Main advice to experienced jumpers: if someone makes bad decisions, don't assume he knows he does!
Main advice to newbies, if in doubt - downsize ask! If you are sure you're right - definitely ask :) If you are too aggressive and cutting some corners, it definitely helps to be fully aware of associated risks.

So, 198 jumps on Safire2-129, 315 total. Traffic and pattern awareness becomes natural. I really like how accuracy gets more and more easy, teammate that lands first and can film your fly-by is a good incentive for that ;) Nailing those 90s, becoming more staged and controlled: brakes, fronts, offset, harness, level-off..
Really wanted something with lighter front riser pressure and not such short recovery arc so got myself Katana-120 as a next canopy (loaded at ~1.48), winter is hop'n'pop time anyway. Since the plan is get back to straight-ins and high pulls, openings concern me even more than landings. We'll see.
Here's the updated video (new stuff from 5th minute):
http://youtu.be/kAsZNm8-4Co
Again, any thoughts welcome!

I mostly did tracking, docking and sit-flying as a student :)
For better deployments you can practice stable flying with one arm behind your back.
Also if you have some tunnel time, you can do a few fun belly jumps with your D-licensed/Coach rated friends (up to 4-way with ratio of one student to one experienced jumper permitted).

So far I'm inclined towards Havok. If it's "pretty much the same" in terms of glide and speed, I'd sacrifice a few seconds of freefall for an extra bonuses in acro and maneuverability.

Bumping up the thread, any personal thoughts from who flown both Havok and Ghost-3?
People I ask all say something within: "Ghost is awesome, get a Ghost!". Then I ask, what about Havok? and the answer is "Oh, they are identical, Havok is just gripless" Doesn't help much :)
Havok seems to have better ratings in everything:
http://www.phoenix-fly.com/products/wingsuits/phoenix_fly_havok
however people seem to be not flying it much. Which one to buy??
Anything Ghost-3 is better at? Anything Havok is better at?

Correct, fixed. Always heard expression, knowing it's gravel, but without putting much thought about the exact words :)

Let me stand on the "other side" for a bit.

It's not the size, it is how you use it :)
I am almost sure I can land a Velo-79. No turns, no risers, straight-in, flare, plf. No problem. The same way I can get the stiffest GS skis and pizza my way down any black slope, or get the most powerful bike and fire it 180mph on a highway, no skill there. One guy was telling how he went from average commuter to an autocross instructor in just a year, while others are still going through the basics. And how one big reason was that they first bought their porches, M3-s and what not, and then started racing, while he learned on average sedans, where you have more time for everything and actually have enough reaction to train the right things, vs fighting with situation.
As I told you in person, I am too holding myself not to downsize too quickly. Speed is exciting at first, but you get used to everything, and it's not the fast straights or 90s we're looking for, right? It is those million-degree turns with cutting a line through water and landing right in the peas that glitter somewhere in the future!
Downsizing actually pushes you back in skill improvement, increasing fun as a trade-off. Fine line here too: downsizing too fast reduces fun, since taking too much control away, hence forcing to conservative landings. And after some training, not only I realized that I can actually theoretically do the above on my current canopy (well, maybe on XF2-114 ;) ), but it is the fastest way to get there.

78RATS

You really should stop bellyflying if you want to be cool.

Right! And dump skis for snowboard. Oh, and get an iPhone

Ok, I think I hear what you are saying and vice versa.
Yup, I've got a good line twist in a wing suit, one reason why I used David's 150 for FJC.

Since I know you, we can discuss plans and progression further next time we meet :)

Well, I agree that I could have more graduate downsize, but since I already have 100 jumps on my Safire129 and feel pretty comfortable with it, this is what I start with, so to say.

And my point, continuing with Naval analogy, is that, imagine you have a GA pilot with 200 hours that you need to train on F18 deck landing, and you are paying for all the rentals, fuel etc. You want to be safe, since injuries or expensive equipment damage set you back and are very bad in general. But at the same time you don't want to say, here's 182, just fly for 1000 hours and come back :) So my question to others is: how would you approach this training?

davelepka

Honest question, and I'll preface it by saying that I think you're making some better choices with regards to the canopy control courses you've taken, is 202 your accurate jump numbers as of today?

About 210 now, yes. Jumps 201 and 202 were Wingsuit FJC (with Douglas Spotted Eagle) that I just could not not do!

3mpire

A more direct analogy, I think, would be to compare canopy progression with Naval aviators progressing from flight school to an F-18 landing on a ship at sea.

Check out the progression new navy pilots have to follow<...>

Only after all of that time behind the stick of progressively staged classes of aircraft do they get to fly the real deal.

That's exactly what I have in mind! Military pilots are deliberately training towards deck landings on F18s, as opposed to just flying mail for thousands of hours, not that it won't at all help. Let's say I want to have a nice consistent 270 and fly 100ish Crossfire2 or Katana by 700-1000 jumps. I know this is realistic since I have quite a few examples. So what should be the next jump about for this goal? I don't think "just having 1000 jumps on 190" is quite the right approach. I need to make a progression, plan drills and details to work on, adjusting as I go. Something like:

Do at least 100 jumps to have a consistent 90-degree landing, with good accuracy with any wind, traffic and conditions.

Doing above, do regular high-pull jumps to spin 180s, 270s measuring altitude loss, do rears drills, stalls, whatever

Increase landing turn to 180/270/ do some next step (whoever went through this should watch my landings and suggest the right steps)

Downsize to X, going back to fronts, 90s and accuracy

etc
Not to mention for example, that without the right sequence, drills and video reviews I might learn bad habits that could be worse than not making those jumps at all.

Ok, forty more jumps and two canopy classes since the video, read through the comments, got Brian's book have a lot to try and work on.

I still believe my canopy is safe and slow enough, even for my skill level, I would even like something with lighter front riser pressure. And as naïve as it sounds, I think that just a thousand landings on 190sq.ft. canopy brings you as closer to swooping as thousand commute miles – to being a car racer. So I want to set the right priorities and progression, pushing forward while staying safe to myself and others.

As subjective as opinions are, I appreciate all the [constructive :] feedback, and would like to thank everyone who responded, commented or otherwise criticized my video!

The courses: first one concentrated on controls (toggles, rears and fronts) and details of the flair. Second was about pattern, wind correction, ground track and being predictable. Both very helpful! In the future, plan to get all the coaching I have a chance to. Not too many landing videos, and no outside ones – somehow cameras used by coaches don't talk very well with modern laptops, - hopefully will fix that this summer.

Working primarily on pattern and consistency, reserving to either straight-ins or 90-degree turns. I've updated a video with a few most recent landings (skip to 6:40) and removed the double speed.

http://youtu.be/7wYvgALKnq4

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Fearjoburg: But it appears to me that you are "above" everybody else and the people who got a shitload of jumping experience than you.

On the complete opposite. I'm really surprised to see the same comments and points made, me AGREEING to them, getting the plan figured out, yet people claiming over and over I know better and ignore everyone.

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Here's what I did see that I disagree with in the video:
-TRAFFIC - What the F*CK? Dude..that needs to stop! Nothing more needs to be said, just don't swoop in traffic.

Yes, AGREED, maximum separation, coaching, PATTERN, accuracy and flare - from the 90s.

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-Target fixation...don't aim for objects in your path...Once you get good and start working on gates, you'll know better by then and it's done differently.

I guess I'll get there once I work enough on the above.

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-Degree of turns. Dude...90's are more than you'll ever need for the next 500 jumps.

Being ignorant as I am, let's say at least 100 jumps, then maybe another 100, then as the progress goes :)

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Get some coaching, even from one of the swoopers at your local DZ if you don't want to take a full course...STAY AWAY from other canopies...
Good luck dude...keep at it, but use what's available to you!

As I said many times before, coaching - first chance I get, locals - already have few people that offered help, can't wait! Will read Brian's book, work on traffic and altitude
awareness and accuracy, 90s and flare (tried rears a few times, they don't seem to level out the flare, landed on my but, definitely need some coaching here).
Thank you for all the advice and especially for the attitude, man!

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Whats up with the rules on patterns at this/these DZ/DZ's? To be honest, some of the clips are really not bad... but others, im pretty surprised no one noticed and talked to him.

I did have a talk twice. Clip by clip:
DLand - bad spotting, strong winds, some landing off-field, no pattern, they were picking up people all over airport. The only time (4th) when we opened high and were close, I made a 90 turn, being in the pattern, all good. Usually, you can make both left and right traffic to final, just need to stay on your own side of the center line.

Z-Hills - in the pattern, in the pattern, really stupidly caught myself going against the traffic (147), when they asked to give more time and space separation. So on consecutive jumps I landed on the side of the field while outfloating everyone.

Sebastian - they have in the corner next to the bridge for high performance landings, where people were landing pretty much vertically over the concrete/hangars, and the pattern further away.
Very valid point here, that I was trying stuff beyond my skill level, control and consistency, but again, outfloating everyone in the swooping area and being far from people in the pattern or the first one down (don't mind yellow Katana-89, he was specifically watching me) there was no concerns from other's point of view (I've asked).
Then already at home (166), another valid point, was asked to land off-field rather than diagonally, even when there is nobody else in the pattern.

Again, foreseeing some angry replies, I'm not saying I knew what I was doing or that it was safe, only that others didn't think I was cutting their paths or being a concern to their landings.

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Safire2-129 might be a fast canopy for me, but not fast enough to be pricey. I sold Tri-160 and bought it used actually saving some money.

Best reason to downsize right there...said no one.

Speaking of jumping to conclusions... sigh... Exactly, Where did I say that?? I only made a point that you don't need to have money lying around to downsize.

Don't jump into conclusions on so many assumptions.

I wasn't comparing this video to mine, I was asking exactly what I did. I seemed fairly safe practice and I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

Safire2-129 might be a fast canopy for me, but not fast enough to be pricey. I sold Tri-160 and bought it used actually saving some money.
And it's not even the issue with canopy course. Be it the weather, timing, demand or some other factors, since I got interested, there wasn't a single course offered (also in Florida when we were there) that I could attend! And nothing scheduled either. But there were 4 (four) water trainings already during the same time.
So it's either chasing people around, asking for some hints, going somewhere for the course (expensive, vacation-wise too) or getting enough interest to bring someone in.

Never said that :)

BTW, looking at all the videos out there, is this safe enough?
http://youtu.be/B_dFonEFN2w

Hey there! Wow, popcorn and everything!

First, the video is suspended for soundtrack copyright reasons (didn’t expect that, did you!), working on that… not sure I want to make it public again with all the vultures wishing me isolated, killed or ever worse... expelled (C). It should still be a good idea to have it online as a lesson to me and everyone else stepping on the same path.
Yes, I’ll get coaching the very first thing jumping resumes [in Spring].

No, I don’t believe I had a good judgment or doing the right things. As much as I tried to over float others and stay away from everybody in the pattern some jumps were SAFE (stupid and fucking extreme), and you really don’t need much for accident to happen. Analogy with cars doesn’t really work since high jumpers that swoop are landing to the same gravel circle with everybody else in pattern, but I believe you when you say that they not really are, and I need more experience to understand that. Whoever is mad at me here, I’m sorry.

Yes, DZs and local friends did see this video and had a talk with me about the same. Since they know me, they were much less bloodthirsty, I have several people who offered to watch my landings and coach me.

No more 270s, definitely no more 180s! Back to the basics. Work on flare, slow turns, pattern and accuracy. I’m really grateful to everyone for useful insights.

[ducks and covers]

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Power First
Control Second
Safety Third
ALWAYS trust your rears
NEVER, EVER give up the gates.

So let it be written, so let it be done.

And whatever you do - keep the camera rolling! If it's not on GoPro - it's a PLF.

For me the best one is: get coaching. Since I've just started and didn't have coaching (hopefully, Spring), I have yet to learn how good this advice is.