Anachronist

Here ya go. I didn't have any bungee handy so I used some junk rope. The figure 8 on the "bungee" makes a bigger knot than a simple overhand, it also doesn't capsize as easily and actually sticks in bungee pretty well. The other bit is a closing loop. I found that making the bungee about 80% of the total length works well. If you go half and half you don't get much stretch, just depends on how you want it and how your rig fits though.

The Pilot is a great WS wing, the Pilot7 as with the Horizon and the Epicene are completely pointless, just marketing shenanigans. I would call them "WS mains with training wheels." I would tell anyone, if you can't comfortably WS a Pilot, you are doing something wrong. If you want something sportier for canopy flying fun then you have to accept that it won't be as forgiving during deployment.

make one half a bungee with a figure 8 tied on both ends, make the other half out of a long closing loop, slink, line, whatever as long as it has a loop on one end, then use the loop to make a larks behind the figure 8 on the bungee, no clip needed.

If the suit has removable arm padding, take it out or use the thinner pads, that can make a big difference. You can also try getting a PVC handle or freefly hacky/monkeyfist instead of a pud. Also a v308 is on the small side of canopies you want to be wingsuiting unless you weigh like 120lbs, "can be done" and "smart" are two different things.

So I saw some mention of how much power it would take to run it. Does anyone know what that would translate to in terms of how much it would cost per hour? Sure a 16 way could afford it, but if you're doing 4 way or something it might be a lot more expensive than using a smaller one. It's just a general question regarding huge tunnels in general, not this one in particular. [Edit]You want to talk politics, go to Speaker's Corner. This is your one warning - cpoxon[/edit]

Apples and oranges. Sure, a dedicated camera flyer filming a belly group is a low risk jump. This is all highly context dependant. I am a USPA member, I meant to say "as an instructor."

I get what you are saying but I think you are missing a different point. Small format cameras are here to stay, and casually using one is not the same as trying to do real camera flying like you described. But they are being treated like "real cameras and real camera flying." They just aren't the same. As for large format cameras on significant mounts on dedicated special helmets (much less with special gear like camera wings) 200 probably isn't enough. I would agree on that point that it is a bare minimum. I've never jumped wings, and if I was interested in it I'm gonna do a bunch of solos with them, sans camera, then 2 ways, and so on, just like you described. That does make sense. Small format cameras and no other equipment is just not the same thing. As for my mad skillz, I'm not talking about athleticism, I'm not talking about reflexes or depth perception. I'm talking about teaching people, and I have over a decade in a MUCH more developed sport with all the support that it offers from multiple training agencies, all significantly larger and more organized than the USPA (and with much harsher consequences for not upholding standards for their professional members), and hundreds of students that I've taught from children to ParaRescue to back it up. I wasn't born with it, I developed it. By comparison the USPA is a backyard drinking buddy organization. I'm telling you, as a training professional, that I refuse to participate in skydiving training because it is so bad. I'm not selling anything, and I have nothing to gain from it. So the "well you ain't been in it since the 60's and you ain't never jumped a round so your opinion is crap" is exactly the toxic skydiving mentality that permeates every level of it's management that is holding it back.

So let me clarify. I don't want to jump a P3 anymore. But it serves a purpose, and that is building a foundation for new WS jumpers. It is both extremely forgiving but has enough performance to be "fun" for scores of jumps. IMHO small suits are for developing basic skills, "performance" is irrelevant over the minimum to develop said skills. So yeah, if you're looking for a "high performance" small suit the P3 isn't that, but to me that is an oxymoron. I have not jumped the Swift2, it might be better. The problem with the Swift is it is not forgiving enough for new jumpers and the tail is too sensitive. They initially marketed it as a FFC suit, it is not, and there was some controversy about that. (Just because high achievers can FFC the Swift doesn't mean it is good for that; example: I personally witnessed this WS progression, and the jumper did ok. 1st jump: I-Bird. 2nd jump: My Havok. 3rd: X-Bird. Freaking stupid, but he pulled it off. The strength of the P3 is that it is great for FFC, big enough that you aren't just tracking with wings (Like a I-Bird) but still very easy to control and big enough that you don't outgrow it in 10 or 15 jumps like an I or T-Bird. In reality the T is probably good for 20 or 30, but not enough to justify buying one. The P3 is actually worth owning. This is a total guess, and maybe the newer versions are better, but I think the initial rough start SQ had in the small suit market was that everyone there is/was a high level WS base jumper. They forgot what putting on a wingsuit for the first 50 jumps is like. "This feels totally tame/boring and easy" to a proxy flier might be "Holy shit this thing is twitchy!" to a new jumper. When I jumped the Swift and Hatch I already had over 100 jumps on a Havok, maybe 200, I don't remember. My first impression was "these are both way too slippery in the tail and way too sensitive for the size that they are." They are(were) "high performance" small suits, which like said before, just doesn't make sense to me. At the time I felt like the Swift took more skill to fly than the Havok, which is counter intuitive. But that was years ago, and it has been hundreds of jumps since I jumped them (or the Havok) so maybe going back now I might feel differently.

I absolutely did, and I absolutely still do. Fear has and continues to reduce the importance of my camera (now in excess of $1,500) to absolutely zero. And even to this day, the pics and video I actually try to make are only when it is convenient, the rest is all incidental. I would ditch it in a heartbeat and not think twice about that decision. The same goes for my $2,000 main, as soon as getting rid of it seems to provide better survivability, it's gone. And as an additional response to Bill, I do agree with the no tandem flybys, 100%. I'm not "anti-safety," I'm anti-rules that don't make sense. Some other stupid stuff the USPA does, coach ratings at 100 jumps, AFFI and TI at 500. Those should be doubled. And the coach should be a stepping stone to AFFI requiring the same prerequisites. I went through a coach course, just so I could say that I did to look good for a college club I was trying to get risk management to be friendly towards. It was a laughable joke, so much so that it was actually disturbing, one of the OMFG moments (of many) burned into my head was having to explain to someone (another course participant) with hundreds of jumps what a downplane was, they didn't even remotely understand the concept.

First of all, all of the examples I saw given were jumpers who far exceeded the 200 jump minimum for a camera, making that minimum irrelevant. From what I saw most were swoopers, that is a whole other animal. I invoke apples and oranges. They were people who were quite qualified to use a camera and made an error, something that can happen to anyone of us on any jump, regardless of experience. Just to clarify, I do indeed deserve some of the heat from my comment, but I'll still stand by it. And I do not envy what DZO's have to deal with. It is a largely thankless job with enormous responsibility and financial/legal liability that does involve babysitting lots of man children (especially big DZs). So a big old high five for DZO's who keep the planes running so we can enjoy our hobby, I don't mean to diminish that at all. As for the USPA, what credibility they had went out the window with the S&TA swooping into another jumper incident and the USPA failing to take any action. The good ol boy system unfortunately prevailed. From my own perspective as a jumper, I have never been one of the mad skillz people. I came into skydiving not knowing much about it, the youtube hype hadn't started yet (or if it had I was unaware of it). The first skydiving promo I ever saw was Children of the Corn, and that was after I had my A. I spent my first 50 or so jumps terrified of death for stupid stuff like leg straps breaking. And I still get scared every time I jump. I don't swoop, I don't try and do stuff at my 100%, most of the time I'm looking for outs and assessing the situation. I did in fact ignore my camera, and I still do, unless I assess the situation and determine that it is ok to focus on one person or group, which is usually only for a fraction of the jump. My mindset 90% of the time is "how do I survive this?" The vast majority of my pics/vids are "incidental captures." Why? Because I'm not a photographer, no one is paying for my video and at most a handful of people will see what I have recorded, it just isn't important. I still don't feel especially skilled, and certainly not special. I would say my progression has been average and my ability based on jump number is very average. And taking responsibility for other jumpers, yeah 0, and that will never change. I don't expect anyone to look after me and I don't deal with students. If I see something blatantly and unarguably dangerous, yeah I'll say something, but then it is their responsibility to do something about it, or not. I've lost friends to BASE and I've seen people ignore warning after warning only to femur or worse. At this point anyone who gets wrecked after being warned is comical. Perhaps a symptom of my age (30), but when people do dumb stuff they know is dumb, and get hurt or killed, it doesn't phase me. It doesn't help that I am hyper judgemental over the rampant drug use and alcoholism in the community. My beef with 200 jump edicts on cameras and wingsuits is because they are arbitrary. Wanna tally up camera and WS injuries and fatalities based on jump number?, almost all are people who exceed those numbers, many by orders of magnitude. More jumps simply doesn't correlate to more safety or better survivability. I challenge anyone to perform even a basic statistical analysis. Who are the most dangerous people on the DZ? They are swoopers, wanna be swoopers, and old guys who like to pull at 2k. Long story short, my personal parade is tiny and without any frills. I keep my head down and like to jump with a handful of close friends and the occasional invite to play with folks much more experienced than me. And I don't appreciate it being rained on because of idiots who pound in because of ignorance or false bravado. I do have one skill that I would say is abnormally keen, partly due to dumb luck I suppose, and partly due to a very specialized experience training scuba divers, for years I was the guy who got sent all the "problem" students, and I learned a tremendous amount about how people behave and learn. I also learned what works and what doesn't, I was a specialist in risk mitigation and trying to predict and anticipate problems. I also trained other instructors, LEOs, and military. I also engaged in technical decompression and mixed gas diving. With that experience, and a wealth of knowledge and experience from a much more developed industry, with a much different and much more healthy community; I will flatly state that the USPA and general SOPs in the skydiving industry are infantile with much emphasis placed in all the wrong places. To use an analogy, it would be like coming from a fortune 500 company and being thrown in with your local head shop. Which is a big part of the reason I refuse to take responsibility for other jumpers unless failure to do so would not be considered reasonably prudent, and why I refuse to pursue any skydiving instructional rating.

In regard to wmw999, maybe you're right, but I prefer to think that I'm "not an idiot" rather than "naturally inclined," and yes, most people are idiots. The whole "is my GoPro on?" boggles my mind. When I started jumping one it was the GoPro1. Only a handful of people had them, and most of those were camera flyers. Anyway, no one asked if their GoPro was on, because using two buttons without looking at them was pretty simple. But apparently other folks have a hard time with that. It didn't even cross my mind that there would be any reason to ask until people started doing it.

Yeah, when I use a mic in freefall I put tape over my mouth vent (Cookie G3), helps cut down on that wind noise, it's still there though.

That's the most interesting part isn't it? It's almost like you can take experiences and extrapolate them within the means of your data or something, weird

There isn't one, and since the USPA has issued its edict, DZO's have no choice but to enforce it or expose themselves to liability. As for the rest, if that sort of stuff picks at your heartstrings, you need to find a new hobby. You know what is really messed up? Not adults who have chosen to participate in a dangerous and highly lethal sport, kids, crushed and burned in cars because their parents were drunk/texting/etc #EMS, so if you want to play the gore game I'm pretty sure I've got you beat. And I'll go on to make a wager. No one reading this forum has EVER seen someone (non-BASE) go in because of a GoPro.

I'll be the voice of dissent. If you (I'm using "you" to mean "people" just btw) aren't an idiot jumping a gopro isn't an issue. If you are an idiot (many people are) then skydiving as a whole is going to be a problem for you (as it is for many jumpers). A Protec is a snag hazard (look at those big ol protruding ear pieces), a analog altimeter (or digital on a hand mount) is a snag hazard, your emergency handles are a snag hazard, your shoes can be a snag hazard if you have hooks for the laces (there is even a friday freakout where a guy got lines wrapped around his foot, making your feet verified snag hazards), long hair isn't just a snag hazard, it is a cutaway hazard (think chunk of hair in a 3 ring trying to release), just having a camera mount is a snag hazard (don't believe me, try getting in a wind tunnel with one that isn't completely covered in tape). Jumping snag free is a myth, and a gopro is a pretty small increase in risk. On top of that they often break and clear themselves (seen it happen several times, and never seen one hang up without breaking, though I'm not saying that doesn't happen, it has plenty of times). Now what the real idiots do is not just jump a gopro, but they try and be photographers. If you are changing how you jump because of your gopro and trying to get a cool shot, you are an idiot. Trust me, if you are strapping on a gopro for the first time, nothing you are doing is worth recording other than for posterity. Before the USPA got its panties in a bunch over cameras I was jumping a gopro before I had an A, and I have my pov of my checkout jump. But I wasn't an idiot, and I just turned it on before the door opened and forgot it was there until after I landed. And to no great surprise, I never had a problem, not even a hint of a problem. I was told when I got it (because not being an idiot, I asked for permission from my instructors) that "if it gets hung up, get rid of your helmet." Nothing has changed many years and umpteen jumps later. Omg, and now I have a real camera and don't have a chin cup cutaway, I must have a death wish So yeah, Safety Sue is going to give you a hard time because now there is an edict from the only governing body in skydiving in the US that you need 200 jumps before you can use a camera, so liability is stacked against them if they permitted you to. Is it lame, yeah, but is it also the "law of the land," yeah.

Yeah I've seen a number of people do the same. The Havok/Funk range is a big step up from the beginner suits. I know a few years ago Phoenix was recommending 80 jumps for the Havok, that is a pretty good mark in my book. If there are any newbies out there reading this, get a Phantom3/Edge, freaking best all around intro/intermediate suit, period full stop. Put 50-100 jumps on it then go from there. If you're heavy, too bad, learn to bleed every ounce of performance out it before moving up. Build a solid foundation and you can upsize a lot more quickly, rather than every upsize being a white knuckle adventure. I really like SQ's big suit range but they don't have anything like the P3, and yes I've flown a Hatch and Swift (after several hundred jumps on a Havok) and hated both.

I'm gonna chime in without complete info, I haven't flown a ATC. I have talked to several people who have and their experiences correlate with SQ's advertising, on that side tangent I have found their advertising for their big suits is spot on, not so much for their little ones or their non-wingsuit lineup. Anyway. The Freak is a BIG suit, and I've seen lots of people strap one on without sufficient experience and white knuckle the first 20 or so jumps and just when they think they are comfortable get into a nasty spin and have to panic pull or blow 6k ft getting out of it. I'm guilty of this too, but I did it several years ago when the R/S/X-Bird line was leading the pack. The ATC seems to be a tamer beast but is more in the fast forward and steep class that big WS have moved toward (in part because of BASE demand) I'm not complaining though, I like going fast. That is in contrast to the Funk. Sure you can fly it steep and fast but that isn't it's forte. (Tangent time and total IMHO: I believe that there is a divergence occurring in big suits, basically revolving around a thin airfoil and steep/fast stability. Back when the X3 was new people were like "OMG a 3 min flight!" slow and floaty was the name of the game. Now it is going toward fast forward speed to generate lift rather than a huge wing, I don't know about the giants of the Phoenix line though, haven't flown them, dat tail though. Anyway, there just isn't enough wing to go really fast with little suits, but once you get to and above the Funk range there is. The ATC seems to be about the size you can start cashing in on it, the Freak is the next step up. So not only are you changing size going from a Funk/Havok to a ATC or Freak, you are changing flying style. I think this is what burns a lot of people who jump to a Freak too early.) For example, when I first got my Colugo2 I was coming from an X-Wing, I laid them on top of each other and the C2 was ever so slightly smaller (1/2 inch or so in the tail, the wings were almost identical) but the C2 is MUCH faster, I also can't float in it like I could the X-Wing. I would cruise in the high 20mph vertical in the X but have to work HARD to do that in the C2 and can't really sustain it. So when picking between the two I'd say there are two things to consider, first is experience. If the Freak seems intimidating or an aggressive upsize and you aren't pining to fly an Aura or the like, then you should probably get an ATC. The second is who you are flying with: If you want to fly mostly with smaller suits, you should probably get an ATC, it will just be easier. If you are heavy and/or you want to fly with maxed out Freaks, Colugos, Auras and the like, then you should probably get a Freak. If you already have big suit experience and a Freak is no problem, and you want to fly with big suits (or XRW), you should probably get a Freak. All of this just depends on the person. Just like I came to realize in the tunnel, someone with enough skill can fly in pretty much any position at any reasonable airspeed. But that doesn't mean it's fun or easy. The same is true with wingsuits. I'm not especially skilled but I've flown with trackers (slick) and intro suits with a Colugo2, but it was a lot of work and not something I'd like to do regularly. I'm heavy so when I fly with other big suits I have to push hard. It's all about where you'll sit on the performance curve and how hard you will have to work to fly with the people you want to fly with. If money is no object, sure get both. The ATC will be better for flying in mixed flocks and chasing newbies, but you won't be able to keep up with big suits unless you're special. The Freak will let you fly with the big boys but will make you work more with those mixed flocks and small suits. If hardcore Acro is your game, I have no idea, I'm not there yet.

I only ever played with one throat mic and the audio was terrible, very garbled and robotic, you also had to push to talk (good or bad depending). But it was for when a regular mic was impossible (engine room of a ship). If there was one that produced a somewhat natural voice it might be worth considering but again, used with radios so lots of wiring and difficult/impossible to mount in a helmet. I think the big issue is quality and convenience. If money and wiring up with a radio, a mic, and a push to talk were no issue, you could make a really great setup but it would be a pain to don and doff. It would also be very very pricy. There are also sealed mouth piece mics for using underwater but again, no one is going to want to jump one. At that point you might as well use a pilot oxygen/comms mask. There are affordable bluetooth systems, but they are severely range limited. The Sena S20 would be adequate with a full face helmet if it had better range.

Fancier ones use "private" channels, which are just encoded and change frequency really fast, if another radio is out of phase it doesn't even pick it up. Works well for group chat. Have only used that feature in VHF though so not sure how well they function in FRS.

I assume all of these are broadcasting on FRS frequencies. I have a Scena 20S and it does work for wingsuiting. The sound from free fall is pretty loud though, you have to shout and one to two word communication is best. The biggest let down is the range, it is touted at over a mile, but in the air is maybe only good out to 300 meters, standing on the road in front of my house with nothing between us, at max 200 meters. At least for wingsuiting, push to talk with a controller in your left hand and using a regular land based (FRS) radio would work well but would require more wiring up than most people (including me would want to do). The appeal of the motorcycle systems is that it is all in the helmet, but the range sucks.

I cannot wait to see this ^^^ You will ride eternal shiny and chrome!

And almost none of it is quantifiable or statistically viable, unfortunately.

Yeah I mean as far as testing goes skydiving is still very anecdotal and trial and error based. There is a lot of tinkering and testing with little to no statistical analysis (at least publically available). Kind of like old school racing before there was a ton of money and teams of engineers involved. You could settle the whose RPC, MARD, and reserve is better once and for all, but it would require hundreds of jumps on each system in lots of different body positions (some of which would be dangerous even with a tertiary rig) with some form of data collection to quantify time accurately and precisely down to the second (fraction of a second really). And it really it isn't in any manufacturer's interest to do that except the one who comes out on top. On top of all that to be really exacting, putting a RPC on a main (like the UPT video) could be a bit different than a RPC on a reserve, especially spinning or on one's back since the location of the RPC in relation to the axis of rotation and CG would be different. As for actual extraction, a freebag in a reserve tray is not the same as a regular Dbag in a main tray, and there could be some difference between having an empty or full main tray, you'd just have to make a lot of test jumps to find out how much.

Do you want to be able to mount your Canon and an action cam at the same time or more one or the other but not both kind of thing?

There are a few that release the mount itself, but I would tend to agree.