dbcooperfan

Very good point! "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

When someone of legal age gets hurt it looks bad on the sport becuase some crazy person did something stupid. When a 16-17 year old gets hurt doing the same exact thing, it is a HUGE news story that makes our sport look TERRIBLE! Who would let her jump a that age?, that poor child should never have been doing that!, why would those people allow this to happen? , etc. It is always a huge black eye to the sport when someone "young" gets hurt more so than when someone that is an "adult" does. "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

This girl will not be right ever again. She will have to live with these injuries for the rest of her life. Show me one skydiver we know that has been hurt badly and had many, many surgeries that have healed completley and are "normal". We can't. I hope she recovers and can live a normal life and this is just a bad patch for her. It is sad that this happened and it could have happened to any one of us (no matter what age). It would be nice to say it will never happen again but we all jump and that is part of our sport so we can't. "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

I have never hid the fact that I don't like Start and how the do business. And as you said "everyone knows" it. So theres no mystery there? Also, most of you know who I am so no need to go down that road. This thread is about if minors should be jumping. Please stay on subject or it will get locked. This poor girl is going to have to live with two broken femurs, a broken pelvis, and a broken jaw for the rest of her life. It was her choice and her parents let her do it. I just don't think the risk is worth putting newbies (under the 18) is worth that chance. IMO "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

To clarify my post...I simply ask a questoin as to what happens next? Why is everyone so quick to think that this is a shot at Start? If anything it is a shot at the USPA. There are DZ's that allow minors to skydive and as long as the USPA allows it they, will continue to take minors up and their money. What needs to be clear is what are the laws (in this case Ohio) for a minor when the parents sign the consent form when something terrible like this happens? Here is a a new article from the Middletown Journal: http://www.middletownjournal.com/news/middletown-news/skydiver-defends-firms-safety-record-974540.html You want it, here comes a shot at Start....notice how they hide behind Team Fasttrax (as usual). They can't even step to the plate and put their NAME on something that happened at their DZ! Total bush league! Grow some hair on your beanbag Start and admit when you have a problem and you are working on it. Don't push it to someone else. There is your shot!!! "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

So you agree with me that no one under the age of 18 should jump because there is a HUGE risk that legal action will take place when a "minor" is injured skydiving? Regaurdless of who signed what? Am I understanding you correctly? "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

I do have a grip about this topic. Respectfully, I don't believe you do. It isn't about how far OVER the age of 18 it is, it's about if you are UNDER the age of 18. There are people at every DZ that shouldn't be jumping whether it is age related, physical, mental (in most skydiver cases) or whatever. That is not the point. The question is whether a "minor" should be able to have their parents sign their rights away. In the U.S. just to be clear. I have said it before and will stand strong when I say NO! There are too many ambulance chasing lawyers that drool over a case like this and can't wait to burn a DZ to the ground if they can make money off of it. If 16 seems to be the magic number than the Tandem industry and USPA need to make it 16 WITHOUT parental concent. But what about the 14yr old...or the 12yr old....or 9. It just opens the flood gate for disaster of our sport. "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

I will admit that is really cool but, he made a jump with his father, so who is he going to sue if something did in fact wrong? (not to mention it was in Aus.) To piggyback off that story, I know Start was taking 'minors' on Tandems as well. They had it in big bold letters on the front page of their site "You must be 16 years of age to perform a tandem skydive at Start" and UPT had to stop them from doing it. It was very important that UPT stepped up and did that. Why? Because UPT would have been the ones with the deeper pockets and the family would more than likley go after them if anything would have happend. Just an example of why the age should be 18 across the board. In this case however, who will be at fault? (because some will ALWAYS be at fault). I feel the main concern here is how this is going to impact the skydiving world? "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

Hi DSE No one under 18 correct. And it is a huge liability if you go under the legal age. I posted this in the Incident forum. Please lock this one down/delete it if you would so all will go there. Thanks "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

One of my buddys said that this should be posted this over in the Incidents Forum. I have it in there now so more can chime in on this issue. If one of the moderators reads this thread, please remove it from the S&T forum so the only one is in the Incicent Forum. Thx. "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/skydiver's-crash-landing-in-middletown Very sad situation and I hope the girl makes a full recovery. My thoughts and prayers go out to her and her family. I have voiced my opinion on the owner of this DZ as some of you know. However, as a skydiver none of us want to see this happen no matter how you feel about other DZ's. So, what happens now to Start and the skydiving industry? I know 17 it is 'allowed' by the USPA with parental consent, but should it be done....NO! 18 years old is an adult. Anything under 18 is just a child that is having their rights signed away. This has been going on since the USPA stepped aside and washed their hands of it. The USPA need to put their food down and say no one over 18 period!!!! Any thoughts? "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

I do.

Taken from the form that tetra316 posted: "Beginning at least as early as January 2004, Hart willfully failed to withhold and pay over payroll tax payments from SMS employees’ paychecks, failed to file Form’s 941 with the IRS, and no payments of payroll taxes were made to the IRS. From 2004 through 2006 Hart failed to withhold and pay over to the IRS approximately $678,644.79 in Medicare and Social Security taxes from his employees’ paychecks." I read it as those employees that he duped will not see those monies in the later years of their lives when they need it the most becuase he did not pay into SS or MC. Any money that the IRS is getting back will go to the Govt. not the employees he hosed. I sure hope I'm wrong on my interpretation, but I don't believe I am on this point. "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

QuoteIt could just as well said, "From 2004 through 2006, Hart used SMS corporate funds for expenditures including, but not limited to, charitible contributions, employee health care, and providing assistance to terminally ill children." Both statements are equally true.Quote Very good point. However that makes it even more sad to me. If what you say is true, he stole this money (or however everyone decided he got it

D.B Cooper....I live in Washington somewhere...no "home" DZ...and you're right. "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

I totaly agree. Especially when they don't put info like their full name...email....Home DZ....stuff like that. Gotta love it. At least some are willing to give their opinion and speak up, even if they do hide behind a screen name. "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

Scrumpot, My post was a general one to all, it wasn't directed to you. Sorry if it came off that way. My issue is with how the money was obtained to get the operation up and running and everything that the DZ has done with the money since. I feel for the employees/patrons that bought into all of Hart's "stories" as well. They were led to believe that he was an upstanding honest guy only to find out the opposite, in a very crushing way. They should not be punished for believing him. I just wouldn’t be able to work/jump at a place that was built on the kind of lies he created in the name of the greatest sport created. And before anyone throws out an “open your eyes” comment, let me say this isn’t my first rodeo, with this kind of situation. I have been jumping for a long time and have seen my share of shady DZ’s. That is why my radar went off when things started to go south at their last airport. When I jumped there I saw through the smoke screen he was creating and once he left Lebanon (which is a whole different lawsuit waiting to be resolved), I didn’t follow him. There are a bunch of DZ’s in that area that people can rotate to and from that is within a 3-4 hour radius on either side of the border. People will jump where they want with their money. I am simply saying that personally, I draw the line at that kind of behavior and won’t support him or any DZ he is associated with. "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

It may be correct but is misleading to most people. I have been sitting back letting everyone get this law suit issue out of the way so I can bring something else up. We all can agree that we are all turbine whores, and will go where the bigger, faster ship is...agreed? Agreed. My questions are this... How can anyone in good conscience go to this guys DZ again after what has happened? How can a person honestly go to jump his aircraft knowing that he blatantly broke the law to build this DZ? How is one ethically able to support a DZ when you know for a fact that the money in this lawsuit (that he pled guilty to) was put toward building Start Skydiving? As shiny new as it is, everything about this DZ is tarnished and he has given a black eye to the sport we love with his actions. I guess the old saying “Want to make a million dollars owning a DZ, start with two million.” Should be changed with “Want to make a million dollars owning a DZ, start with $679,000 of someone else’s money”. I am very disappointed with the actions, lies and deceitfulness of John Hart. Instead of working hard to get a great DZ up and running he took the easy way. Who knows what else will come of this whole mess, only time will tell. The DZ should be (and probably will be) hit hard to pay back the money from the lawsuit, and rightfully so. I for one will never darken the hanger door of Start Skydiving ever again. "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

This is not speculation or mud slinging it is a matter of public record. Pure black and white. I will let you call the southern district court of Ohio and they will let you know all the facts that are out there. Everyone knows how the news is. They show what will make news and sounds good to "the people" You can appoligze later. "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

I know some of his former employees and I am speaking facts. What is a very sad fact is that there are those that still think he is a good guy now that he has confessed and has been convicted. While all the time he was lying and stealing from his employees from selection.com just to build up a drop zone. Put yourself in their shoes and think about not having that money in your Medicare or Social Security when you will need it. He lied and stole from those that felt he was trustworthy. Ask those same people now how they feel about him. You will get nothing but negatives, I guarantee it. I jumped at the first DZ in Lebanon before he high-tailed it out of there because he was not paying the bills (fact). It was a nice place, but I too was one saying “where is he getting all the money for this?” Now we all know….he stole it from employees that trusted and looked up to him. He took from them and now the Govt. will be taking it back. I get it, nice facilities and turbines, trust me I get it. But, how can a person support a guy that ruins others lives like that and says “litarelly 10 minutes before he went to court "it's nothing but a thang!"? SERIOUSLY??? I just don’t get it. A moral line has to be drawn somewhere. "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

Their checks showed that all the appropriate taxes were being taken out so their take home was the same. But on the back side it wasn't beging claimed, so more money would be there to build the DZ and get it up and running. They had no idea that the money wasn't being put into their social security until the lawsuit put a stop to it. Not only do the not have the money now, they will not have it when they need it down the road in retirement. "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

The IRS sure likes to get their money down to the last cent. The link is from the article back in March when he pled guilty. When the IRS starts to collect their money through his assests, his "toys" at the DZ are the first that will go. The part that just stinks is the employees that lost their money in this whole thing will never see it again. When they hit retirement they will still be broke because of his actions. How anyone can look in the mirror at the end of the day after doing that is beyond me. "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

"Hart, a 90 percent shareholder of Selection Management Systems (SMS), pleaded guilty to one count of failure to collect and pay to the IRS Medicare and Social Security taxes from his employees’ paychecks. According to a statement of the facts included with the plea agreement, Hart failed to withhold and pay approximately $678,644 in taxes from 2004 through 2006." http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2010/03/01/daily52.html "TREE!" - D.B. Cooper 1971

To try to make people believe that he is going to jail and take the hit for someone that has passed away and is the true "guilty one" in all this, is just crazy talk. He is pouring some really strong kool aid as you put it.