EFS4LIFE

I am 6 foot and 180, not huge for sure, but a little bigger. My right foot goes out on the step too (the large flat part where theirs both are) That way if they move their feet off the step or whatever, we are pivoting off of MY foot. I have found this to be the best way to prevent a student collison with the step. In this postion my drougue, plus my secondary release handle (Vector) is angled close to the aft portion of the door frame. As we are angled to go out at a 45 degree angle. The back of my rig is all up in the pilo'st face lol. Damn those 182's are cramped! Anyway Doug, you have more experience than me. It is just the way, and things, I have been taught. I just want to insure you understand I am not trying to create a pissing contest or anything. Despite me and Dave butting heads serveral times in the past, I do value his experience and opinion. It has just been easier to swallow with me gaining experience :) That is why I asked, not to justify myself or anything. I just see safety problems with climbing back in. I full heartedly agree that "No means No." We both know that sometimes a little convincing and a go around is all that is needed. I have seen passengers refuse to go, but not while they are already outside of the plane out on the step. This whole question seems to be a highly "what if" scenario to me, but I do like to think about "what ifs?" Afterall forethought into these scenarios allows us to react easier and faster with a pre-determined recation. If you are 100 percent confident in getting that student back inside the aircraft safely, given the scenario, then I agree. I would be having one hand on my drogue for sure, but like I said "No, does mean No" and I don't dispute that one ioda. I just think once it reaches that point it is safer IMO to go then to fuck around outside of the plane. I am more confient in my ability to fly my body and land us safe under a canopy then to risk a possible plane crash. I am an asshole, but I am honest

Good points Dave. What is your view in regards to the passenger being out on the step of a 182? Going at that point or pulling em back in? I am an asshole, but I am honest

I read your thread and I congradulate you for making that decision, but even as you said yourself, it should have been made before getting in the door. The only point I have tried to make is once we are outside of the plane, out on the step, we are going as it is too dangerous IMO to climb back in. I would rather take someone that is balking out on the step than have a drogue go over the tail and kill everyone. A reserve pop or any number of things that could go wrong there. I find this situation difficult to imagine though as any student that summons the courage to put the body outside of the plane usually at that point goes. It isn't like we are spending a whole lot of time out there for them to reconsider anyway. I am a brand new TI so I hope I don't come off as dismissive to other very more experienced TI's. I take my job very seriously and safety of my passenger is number one. I have devoted a lot of mental time thinking about possible senarios, and my conclusions were stated. That being said it is interesting to hear the liabilty part of the "no refund" Hearing that, I would save that for after the students decision to not go. Not use it as a means to get them to go. By the time that is brought up we are landing with the plane anyway. Maybe Davelepka is right and that conversation should just be left out all together. Definitely food for thought there. I am an asshole, but I am honest

Are you serious Bill? Explain wrestling, football, or bodybuilding. The people who pay for it love it. Ignorance is not an excuse anymore. Everyone knows it is going on and they don't give a shit. Maybe I misunderstood you, but that statenment, prima facia, is ridiculous. I am an asshole, but I am honest

***ps thanks for the great post earlier. I'm not really interested in swooping, but they are great tips for canopy flight.*** The post Dave gave should be a sticky and should be practiced by every single jumper, whether a potenial future swooper or not. We ALL pilot canopies to survive, and those basic skills he mentioned are essential, swooping or not. I am an asshole, but I am honest

The only "experience" I have ever seen need to rodeo a wingsuit has been a nice set of tits Half joking here. Key word is half. I am an asshole, but I am honest

*** The NRA is one of the deadliest forces in our society. I know, "Guns don't kill ppl, ppl kill people!" So the slogan goes. But how many mass killings would happen in the US if the attacker were req to hack his victims to shreds, or suffocating them one-by-one? Hand-to-hand combat!!? And yeah, another 11 victims in NYC today. It's becoming a daily occurrence.*** So guns should be illegal? Please go on and tell me more about how these criminal mass murders would follow those laws. Wake the hell up. All you would be doing is taking the guns out of the citizen's hands that choose to follow the law. They aren't the ones I am worried about. I want those guys to be able to protect themselves. The bad guys would still (illegally) have guns. As a law enforcement officer let me let you in on a little secret.....Prohibition doesn't work. The war on drugs has been fabilous! (sacrcasim there) Kids today can get drugs easier than alcohol. I see it on a daily basis. All you do is push the market underground which actually makes it easier to obtain. Drug dealers don't ID card anyone. Meanwhile there is mass violence south of our border due to the suppliers fighting over the demand of said black market. I realize this is a drift from the NRA topic but I am drawing a parallel here. I am an asshole, but I am honest

That is explained to them before their waiver filling out during their initial arrival. I just "remind" them of the fact during my "efforts." It is better to have them land knowing and without any arguements. Is there a specific reason why you would avoid this "reminder?" I am an asshole, but I am honest

My question is does anyone really care? I don't. Doping, or not, it wold still be a grueling hell completeing a Tour De France, let alone winning it seven times. On top of beating stage four cancer. Sure there are the issues of fair competition and blah blah, but how many others in that same field were doping or having illegal blood transfusions etc? I bet my bottom dollar he wasn't alone. If your not cheating your not trying hard enough. No one likes to admit it but that is reality. Competition means trying to get any edge you can over your competition. That is why steroids are rampant in sports. The sceince of gaining an edge will always keep a slight pace above any detection methods. Even if he is innocent, I can see why he stopped fighting it. He has been fighting these accusations for YEARS. Even if they strip his titles will anyone ever forget he won seven times? (failrly or not) No. He will always be remebered as the guy that beat cancer, and went on to dominate the cycling world. The ICU or no one else can change that. His foundation is awesome and does more for cancer research than any other I can readily think of. Why WOULD he continue this fight? At some point you let go of the past and concentrate on the future. Lance doesn't have anything to prove to anyone. He proved it all to himself while the world watched SEVEN times. You have to be very mentally tough to even complete a Tour. No amount of doping is going to give you that mental toughness. That is all Lance. Anyone that thinks Lance was the only one doping or having blood transfusions etc are delusional. Competetive cycling is and always has been rampant with thses activites. I am an asshole, but I am honest

http://youtu.be/xrLAL8jXnak Not too bad either I am an asshole, but I am honest

I have 10-20 jumps on my buddies V3 with spacer foam everything and IMO it was the most comfortable rig I have ever jumped. It isn't like I can't stand mine without it, but I didn't know what I was missing until I jumped his. Mine next one will definitely have it. BTW the padded stabilitizers are the straps by your kidney area. They go from the back of the container towards the articulated hip ring area. If you got the cash get padded everything. I am an asshole, but I am honest

Just the way it works at my DZ. Not saying you are wrong in anyway, DZ rules I guess. If they are out of the plane, usually they are practically completely out of the plane with their feet on the step, then they are going. There isn't enough room for them and me between the pilot and door. Their butt may just be on the edge....barely. You can snag your drogue trying to get back in, etc. It is the ONLY instance where I would take someone against their will. I find it hard to imagine them getting to that point out of a 182 and refusing to go. I guess it could happen, but I do brief them on the ground that if we get to that point we ARE jumping, so they do know that before hand. I also have my leg out on the step. I haven't had one bounce off the step (seen others do it though) because even the big guys I am strong enough to pivot us off MY leg. I never rely on their legs doing the right thing. I personally find it safer to go in that situation then trying to climb back in. Any other scenario I completely agree it's their decision. I just let them know in my breifing what the point of no return is, and that is putting their body out of the plane. I am an asshole, but I am honest

I am a brand new TI and haven't had to deal with this yet, however I know how I would handle it. I would request a go around. I would attempt to calm the student down and get him/her to conquer their fear. If this fails, then I would politely explain that they would not be getting a refund and ask the pilot to land. It is the students choice, and you should never FORCE that choice. A gently nudge to get over the fear is one thing, but dragging a flailing tandem student out against their will is asking for trouble. That being said however I jump a 182 a lot and if the students legs are out on the step then "No,no,no!" sounds to me like "Go,go,go!" It is simply too dangerous to try to climb back inside the plane at that point, and they are going for a skydive wether they like it or not. I am an asshole, but I am honest

Excellent post sir, but you are wasting your time. I have stroked this guys ego (maybe a mistake but I believe in dreams) by telling him he could be the best in the world (his own stated goal) if he takes the time early to build the right foundation, which AggieDave generously gave him. He chosses not to listen because it isn't what he wants to hear. No one told him he was going to die under his Triathlon, but look at his last post. Explaining that swoopers by nature push the envelope and to take it slow, to him equals "you are going to die." His bullshit statement about "experience" and people "holding him back" says it all. I am done wasting my time with him. He will learn, unfortunately probably the HARD way. I just hope he gets it on video. I am an asshole, but I am honest

What have I done that was a rush? What do I need to slow down? Really? Your comment about "experience" and so many jump numbers speaks volumes man. Listen just like DocPop stated I was you. He was you. Hell I bet even AggieDave was like you at one time. Anyone that swoops by definition is a push the envelope kind of person man. You aren't any different or special......YET. If you want to be, I have already told you what to do. Print out Dave's reply on accuracy in the pattern. Do exactly what he said. Count on doing just that for the next 100-200 jumps before ever thinking about swooping. Build your foundation. You have NO idea how valuable that information he gave you is. People pay for it. At your experience level you don't know what you don't know man. Read Brian Germain's book the parachute and it's pilot. Get a coach that it is an experienced competetive canopy pilot. Even if you do all of these things you WILL find yourself in the corner one day. Every canopy pilot does. Will you even recognize it in time? Will you freeze? I did. So did Sangi. There are a ton of guys like Ian, Dave, and so on that will preach wringing the shit out of the large parachutes first. Trust them when they say it will make you a better canopy pilot in the long run. Those guys really do thrive off of competetion. No one will try to hold you back. They actually want to see you succeed. Your current attitude however just shows another statistic in the making. I am an asshole, but I am honest

It is the truth that apparently both of us have learned ourselves from lucky ass bounces. I have video of mine I would post if I thought it would do any good for the OP. Mine doesn't sound as bad as yours as I went nowhere near 100 feet but it still was a wake up call that I needed to slow down and learn the foundations properly. AggieDave sent me a PM awhile back with all the information he just gave this guy. Top notch stuff for FREE. If the poster is serious about being the worlds best one day he will slow down and take the time to learn that "boring" foundation work. If not he will be another Sangi. Constructive or not the truth is the truth. I doubt even Aggie's advice was "constructive" to the OP because from his displayed attitude it seems to most likely fall on deaf ears. It wasn't what he wanted to hear. I am an asshole, but I am honest

No problem Dave. Sorry to hear you are taking a break but I can't blame you. You are doing it for the right reasons and no one can hold that against you man. Thanks for trying to help us new guys. I am an asshole, but I am honest

I think AggieDave gave you your task for the next 100 jumps. IMHO it was the best advice I have ever heard given to someone over the internet for free. Usually guys with his "experience" get paid for it. I am an asshole, but I am honest

Hey guy I only have 550 jumps okay. Guess what I am a new jumper too, so I am not patronizing anyone. That's right 3 years in the sport, 500+ jumps, a tandem instructor, and guess what I am a "newer jumper." At least I still consider myself one. I guess it is all in ones perspective. Do the students consider me "experienced?" Well yes, I guess, but I know guys that were jumping before I was even alive. That is "experience" to me. I don't think anyone on this thread said you need X amount of jumps before you swoop. If they did I must have missed it, please excuse me. What was said is that you need to work on your accuracy in the pattern. Now from "experience" I can tell you that USUALLY will take a hundred or maybe even two hundred just get down consistently in all conditions. AggieDave told you the top guys are still constantly refining their accuracy....hmmmm. Remember that Nick Batsch guy I mentioned? Well he basically started to learn to swoop right after getting his A license. As a student he hit the peas EVERY time though. Are you? I am telling you he is a freak. He has rare, almost uncanny, talent. Do you? Hell I don't know, but what I can tell you is Nick used to wear pads and bounce all over the place when he first started. The guys around here swear he must be made of rubber. If someone with his talent has landed hard several times won't you too? You will and I just pray it isunder a larger parachute. He is the most competetive person I have ever met. Everything from his personality to his body's build is perfect for swooping. Well okay he is smaller so he does have to wear a shit ton of weight when competing, but that is irrelevant. I know I am not like that. I am happy just getting my turf surf on from a relatively conservative 90 degree front riser turn. Of course i don't have the desire to be the world's best like you though. Listen man, get coaching. Get it from a qualified coach, and take it slow. Trying to rush through the foundation will only end in a high speed impact with the earth. You really got some of the best advice I have ever heard from AggieDave. Take his post, print it out, do what he said, and get to work man. The google picture of the LZ lamenated is brilliant. It will take awhile but it will pay off ten fold if you ever make it to the podium. I would rather see you make it there, then in a wheelchair or worse. It's not about X number of jumps, it is about having the necessary tools in your toolbox to help you survive the most dangerous discipline in our sport. How long will it take to acquire the necessary tools? That depends on how hard you train, and your skill. None of us here know you, so that is what a coach is for. Get with one. If you do it right, and you have been truly blessed with some amazing skill you MIGHT have the chance to be as good as the guy in this video one day. http://youtu.be/1OzoB5kwQ3Q I am an asshole, but I am honest

+1,000,000 I am an asshole, but I am honest

Awesome post Dave!!! To the OP some on here are going to give you shit because of your lack of experience. Some are doing it, because they have seen the blood and guts first hand. They have seen friends die or end up crippled. Swooping is dangerous. And some are just assholes and take every oppurtunity to display it online.... As DocPop stated Dave and Ian are some of the few that take to heart helping younger guys do it right. The key is RIGHT. I am not qualified to give you specific advice in swooping. What I will say is take it slow and get coaching. Coaching really is worth its weight in gold so to speak. Just makes sure your "coaching" is from a qualified sorce, like a proven competive canopy pilot, not just some guy from your dz. Dave is spot on when he tells you it will take thousands of jumps. If it is something you want to pursue one thing I know is you will pursue it anyway. Just make sure you pursue your goals the right way. Get coaching and take it SLOW. I would highly recommend you search for Sangi in the incidents forum. Watch the links to his videos. After that, drill in to your head that if I take it too fast this WILL happen to me! You COULD have the skill within you to be the best. I don't know you and have no idea. In fact, with your level of experience no one knows yet. Nick Batsh came from my area. When he was starting off everyone thought he was nuts and going to kill himself. Now look at him. Unarguably one of the best, in my opinion he is the best, but I am a "homer" lol. You will never find out if you can dethrone the best if you break yourself before your time. The skills Dave described for the pattern are essential before ever getting to turns. You can't build a skyscraper without a strong foundation. It will just come crashing down, like Sangi. Seriously go watch, and yes it CAN happen to you. Be sure to read the descriptions too. http://youtu.be/tF578oSkrKk http://youtu.be/9YZHpdtQVMw I am an asshole, but I am honest

One trick on the lighter loaded larger canopies early on...depending on the canopy some are more sensitve to harness input while in brakes. Ealry on I would deploy higher on a solo pass from 5,500'. Clear and pull after 3 seconds. I would leave my toggles stowed after deployment and do exactly what earlier posters said with the legs. I would straighten one and lift the other. You may find you get a minor response even on a student canopy if you are a larger guy. That being said I must emphasize that you don't play around doing this too long, because you still will not have performed a controlability check as your toggles will still be stowed. So it is important to pull those toggles out and be able to decide if you can steer and flare it with plenty of time before your decision altitude. I am an asshole, but I am honest

+1 I am an asshole, but I am honest

That's funny I have about 80 jumps on a Pulse 190 at the same wingloading and I found it to be fast as hell (for my experience back then) It was the closest canopy to the Stiletto I ended up moving on to. It wasn't sensitive to harness input on opening like the Stiletto, but it was a flat flying, fast as fuck in the toggle turns, quick recovering SOB, with tremendous front riser pressure just like the Stiletto. That Pulse was hell of fun. I won't bash you because I would be a hypocrite. I was a fast starter too. I have since slowed down because I was lucky enough to walk away from a mistake or two. It is what you don't know that you don't know that will bite you. No offense but at 23 jumps there is a whole lotta stuff that you don't know that you don't know. Be safe. I am an asshole, but I am honest

Oh yeah Sangi off topic, but fuck it. I went and read your incident and saw your video. Props for manning up and not just disapperaing here on DZ.com. I have a bounce vid too, but nowhere near yours. Nothing was bruised except my pride fortunately. It was on a 90 when I first started swooping. Held on to doubles a little too long before starting the turn. Could have salvaged it by snapping the turn quicker, but I usually carve it slow. Probably could have dug out on the toggle, but found myself above my pay grade skill wise and hesitated for an instant. I was lucky enough to bounce and not get hurt. That humbled me and definately caused me to slow my role. I have spent an entire season perfecting my 90 and won't progress to a 180 until all three parties, my coach, dzo, and S&TA say I can. Anyway brother heal fast. For everyone out there please know I am NOT comptimplating downsizing. Really I am not. I know that I do not have the skill to push my Samurai to it's limit yet. Until then I have no business on a 120. I am not just yanking on a riser cranking out 270 thinking I am getting all she has. I am learning to perfect my 90 and taking my sweet time doing so. I just realize people will think 400 jumper asking about a Velo (roll of the eyes) I was seriously wondering down the road type stuff, and no my down the road is not in 100 or 200 jumps lol. I am an asshole, but I am honest