EFS4LIFE

Kallend we are not talking about teaching in an actual school, or the credentials required. We are talking about teaching a WS course. I highly value your opinion. You are an experienced WS, and you have shown the ability to think critically. Do you have any suggestions on how the USPA should handle this issue? I am an asshole, but I am honest

I think we may be miscommunicating here Jim. You are either unwittingly agreeing with me, or I did too poor of a job expressing my thoughts. That WAS exactly my point! I will be more specific in this post hopefully. My point is that any course that a current USPA instructor has been through, wether it be AFF-I, TI, coach, etc. contains a very prominent portion of professional develpoment where the instructor-to-be has demonstrated the proper profeciency on what and how to teach. Now, I contend that an "experienced WSer" - (I just pulled 200 WS jumps from my ass, I would like feedback from the WS community on that final number, but for arguements sake lets say 200 WS jumps defines this "expereinced wingsuiter")- that is ALREADY a USPA instructor should be able to teach a USPA standardized FFC. They have already properly demonstrated the ability to teach, because they are already instructors, i.e. AFF-I, TI, etc. and they are experienced enough in the subject matter, that being wingsuiting, that they should be able to pick up the standard curriculm and teach it. They already teach people that have NEVER skydived before I am sure that they would be fine teaching jumpers that have 200 plus jumps. Remember that with the WS BSR it is a 200 jump min. so this "expereinced WSer" would have at the very least 400 jumps. 200 prior to WSing, and at least 200 WS jumps. Add to that he must be an instructor (AFF-I, TI, etc.) and you are looking at most likely more jumps than that. Do you understand what I am saying? I believe this could work and there is no need for an entire WS-I/E and WS-I program. 1. Develop a standard USPA FFC. Just like the FJC only for WS. 2. Add to the existing WS BSR that a WS wannabe must complete this FFC. 3. Define that the FFC course can be taught by an "experienced wingsuiter" (200+ WS jumps?) that is a current USPA instructor. (AFF-I, TI, IAD-I, etc.) Just to be clear. I think bigbearfng was clear and was agreeing with my comment. If not I believe he will correct me. Jim are you mad? That is exactly where he MUST go to get it instituted! Where else could he get this mandated for all skydivers lol. Me being a LEO has no bearing on my opinion on this matter, however since you want to bring it into the equation, okay I will bite. Do you know what Prima Facie is? (not prema, what the hell is that?) Prima Facie comes from latin, it basically means at first glance. Litterally translated I believe it means at first face. In common law (which we practice) it means evidence that, unless rebutted, would be sufficient to prove a particular propsition or fact. Most all cases require prima facie to exist, then proceedings take place to test it. The speed limit on exit ramps where it is yellow is an example of prima facie law. The regular ones are absolute limits. I can site a person for breaking a prima facie speed limit and the onus is then on the driver to show that the speed he was operating at was safe under the conditions. Too fast for conditions. Per se law is something like the B.A.C. of .08%. The state says you are drunk per se at that level, even though some career alcoholics I know wouldn't even feel buzzed at that level. Further more you need some education on hearsay. Hearsay is where I attempt to submit evidence that I heard from somebody that heard something from somebody else. That is not what is going on here. This is all public knowledge and being discussed on an open forum, that DSE himself is participating in. So yes, Prima Facie, it looks like a power grab to me, and apparently I am not alone in that view. To have your handpicked 7 I/E's controling the entire discipline of wingsuiting in the US is a grab of power, PER SE. By the USPA membership voting yes, creating a little cabinet of WS Czar's that we must all flock to if we want to don wingies. Jim you could study war history and know a lot about what happened in the American Revolution, but you weren't there right? I don't think your THAT old. Please do not use statements like these. They seem a little condescending towards jumpers that haven't been around as long as you, and from experience it leaves a bad taste in those jumpers mouth. By all means please edjucate us younger jumpers as to your recollection of the history involved, but you can leave out that crap and I bet you would be heard better. I have heard from some guys that have been around since the start of the AFF program the same sentiment that bigbearnfg is referring to. It may have played out that way for some of the reasoning you gave, but it was still an issue. It is a valid concern in this issue as well. In DSE's own post he admitts it will hurt the potenital newcomers to the WS discipline at smaller DZ's. Small DZ's are the majority of places where people jump across this country. Not all of us are lucky enough to be near big DZ's. I believe this idea above could work. DSE of course does not. Apparently, he thinks that our current instructors can't teach, and he must evalute and pass anyone that is going to teach a FFC. That is nonsense. There really is not THAT much in a FFC. Go to one of the schools currently teaching. Hell I bet DSE's is similiar. Half the day on the ground instructing, second half making some coach jumps, bang your done. You are WS qualified. I see no need to institute a whole WS-I/E and WS-I system. It is overkill and will be costly. editied for clarification of prima facie speed vs. absolute I am an asshole, but I am honest

Looks like there is a current lawsuit going. http://youtu.be/-NaBun1D_WE I am an asshole, but I am honest

SOMEONE collected the data on tail strikes. SOMEONE omitted to find out (or failed to report) the detail that would actually make their case. One wonders why that was. Wouldn't it be great if this is how evidence actually worked? I mean I could go into court and say "The boogie man told me Johnny was selling drugs and that why I stopped him and violated his 4th admendment rights your Honor." I am an asshole, but I am honest

Thats funny because the USPA allows jumpers with only what 100 jumps that have proven effiecency by passing a coach course to teach first time jumpers the FJC. Hmm that STANDARDIZED. Seems to go together just fine so far. Oh ya but we have students bouncing all over the place right? Seems like a power grab to me. I will let others make up their own mind on this one. I have. I am an asshole, but I am honest

Sorry Spot but you never answered this question. Maybe you either didn't read up thread, or I was unclear earlier, however by "experienced wingsuiter" I was referring to a current USPA instructor with at least 200 winsuit jumps. The lowest common denominator of which would be a coach with at least 200 WS jumps. That would equal 200 (the current BSR for WS, plus 200 WS jumps for a total of 400 jumps, 200 which would have to be WS experience. I seem to have the opinion this would be more than adequate to teach a FFC. I mean we are talking about experienced jumpers with 200 jumps here. Not a FJC course where they have never jumped before, yet USPA currently allows coaches to those wuffos the FJC. How was the process conducted to pick these 7 I/E's and 40 WS-I's? Spot I wish you would stop being so defensive for a minute and realize a few things. One I have never made a wingsuit jump. I know that you have been in the WS game for a very long time. No one is doubting your credentials as far as that goes brother. Some people are just of differing minds when it comes to how this should be implemented. I am relatively sure that your curriculum as far as the FFC should be the standard, just not that we need a new examiner and instructor program for what are already experienced jumpers. Every other examiner and instructor program in the USPA is for the instruction of non licensed skydivers, not people with 200+ jumps already. So I ask you for the last time one simple plain sentence that really only requires a yes or a no. Would you Douglas Spotted Eagle support your FFC curriclum being taught by already current USPA instructors that have at least 200 WS jumps? If not, please tell us why? I am an asshole, but I am honest

and the Professor speaks wisdom. +1 I am an asshole, but I am honest

Come on Bill what wingsuiter that is another instructor and has at least 200 WS jumps would be teaching open wings on exit? Especially if the curriculum was standardized and spelled out? Really? I am an asshole, but I am honest

So I have been told Spot. Let me ask you something though. Would you agree with and support your standardized instruction FFC being taught by any Instructor that is an experienced wingsuiter? Why do you think it is necessary to start a whole new I & I/E system? It is not an attack on you personally that people are skeptical of the reasoning for what many feel is unneeded. If people feel it is unneeded then it is natural to question why it is being brought up and what motives there may be. If it is truly because you feel you can make the dicipline you hold dear safer and better, then I applaud your efforts, even if I disagree with the method you propose. I honestly feel that it is complacency amoung experienced wingsuiters that is causing the often brought up tailstikes. Yourself even said once the 200 jump BSR went into effect there were no new WSer fatalities. If it worked then what gives? I am an asshole, but I am honest

Gary usaully does, but sometimes we disagree To bring it back on topic and to further address the "I hate cops thing." I find that a lot of people are really unaware of their rights, rather I should say unaware of how to effectively stand up for their rights. When some asshole cop comes around and is willing to violate them, well of course you are going to be left with a bad taste in your mouth. There are ways to deal with these types of cops. This video shows some great ways to stand up for your rights, and deal with these types of cops. It is about 40 minutes long but worth it if you have the time. At about the 18 minute mark it deals with these stop and frisks associated with the OP's original video, so at the least skip to that, and remember even this lawyer in the begining says there are a lot of cops that are good and professional. http://youtu.be/s4nQ_mFJV4I I am an asshole, but I am honest

Thanks Wendy. Gary Peek was telling me this the other day. Not so much because he thinks I am a good cop, but because he thinks I would be unhappy skydiving full time. I think he is nuts lol I am an asshole, but I am honest

Have you "lost all respect for cops" or have you lost respect for ALL cops? I am a police officer. I was the LAST person you would of picked from my high school class to EVER be a cop. I was a knuckle head and going down the wrong path. Wisely, I decided to straighten my shit out and the best way to do it seemed like joining the military. That was before September 11, 2001. That day not only did I feel the shock as every American did, but I also knew I was about to embark on what can only be described as HELL. Now I wasn't so smart when I joined the Army. Instead of being a medic, or mechanic, or any other job where I actually would have been able to get a good career after my service, I was clueless as to what I wanted to do. When I was deciding on my MOS (job) for the Army I was asked "Well combat or non-combat?" As a young 20 yr. old I wanted action right, I mean combat sounded exciting, non-combat sounded boring. In my ignorance I wasn't expecting to actually have to go to combat. Most of America was asleep so to speak before 9/11. So was I. I said "I want a job where I get to blow shit up!" My recruiter showed me a video of EOD, explosive ordinance disposal, ya know bomb squad. I said "I think you misunderstood me sir, I don't want to blow myself up. I want to blow other shit up!" The next video I saw was of a Forward Observer. Now this job entails being out on the front line, or sometimes even behind enemy lines, using binoculars to call in and adjust indirect fire like artillery, mortars, close air support, naval gun fire, etc. I said " Now that looks badass!" So off I went and signed the papers. After my time in combat in Iraq I wanted out. 10 people from my battalion were KIA. I had an IED go off right in front of my Humvee. I had been shot at. I had shot back. It was too much. I finished my tour and recieved my honorable discharge. I was married and couldn't really afford 4+ years of college. I had to get a house, get a full time job to pay for it, support my wife, etc. What do I do? Law enforcement was the only thing I could come up with. Besides I could continue to serve my country, and still have the comradery, the two things I would miss the most. For the first time in my life the military gave me a sense of pride, and I liked that. I wanted to do something I could still be proud doing. One thing I want you to understand is it isn't about wether we should have been in Iraq. We didn't have a choice. We did our jobs. We didn't fight for country, mom or dad, the American way, or apple pie. We fought for each other. The men to your left and to your right. People can say they fight for our freedom, and all that crap all they want, but when the metal hits the meat, trust me we fought for survival and to keep are brothers alive. I have been on the police force for 5 years now. It pains me to hear your comments. It enrages me to hear that recording of those dirty cops. They should lose their badges. Some of us really do protect and serve. In my little town we have a program where we call or stop by and check on the elderly daily. We provide vacation checks on peoples homes when they are away. We have drugs and weapons collections where we ask NO questions, and we get good turn outs from the community. I receieved a life saving award from applying pressure to a gunshot wound until paramedics arrived. I had experience with that from Iraq. I also talked a suicidal subject with Bi-polar disorder into going to the hospital to get help instead of blowing his head off. Yes part of my job is writing traffic tickets. Yes I arrest people that have or are commiting crimes. This is usually a "negative" interaction with these individuals from their perspective that I don't really enjoy having to do, but it is a necessary part of the job. I try to remain professional and respectful, EVEN when I am being disrespected. Everything I do is recorded on camera, and by body microphone. I guaruntee if I did violate someone's rights my department would NOT cover for me. I would be hung out to dry without a job, and probably brought up on charges. The officer from my department that got caught lying on a report was. There are bad apples in every bunch. No more so in law enforcement than anywhere else. Yes there are power hungry assholes that abuse their authority. I bet you probably have had a boss like that to. It just gets highlighted more in a group of individuals that are intrusted with the power and authority that cops are, and rightfully so. We should be held to a higher standard. There are cops out there that refuse to stick up for those bad apples. I am one of them. They should be sued for civil rights violations, and brought up on assault charges. There is a legit reason for a Terry Frisk, however the officer must have reasonable suspicion of a crime or that the subject may be armed. From the video it appears the NYPD is abusing this in my opinion. Quotas are illegal for a reason. A department does have the need to enforce certain performance standards. You wouldn't want your tax paying dollars to be paying for some fatass to hang out at the gas station eating donuts all night would you? However, you can clearly see in the video from the testimony of the officers that this is being pressured onto them, and it is clearly a violation of rights to stop someone for no reason. Now gang flags, suspected narcotic transactions, etc are a valid reason to assume crime is aloof, and may justify a stop. I wish you would realize that there are a lot of cops out there that are good people. People with a strong code of ethics. People that do not abuse their power and won't stand for the ones that do. I have found a couple of videos of some "good" cops I posted links to. Maybe it will help you to realize we aren't all assholes. http://youtu.be/e-LnyNgXIx8 http://youtu.be/otOmIMiQXQI http://youtu.be/vyS7Qr58wkU and here is one doing the right thing http://youtu.be/2w8Nyp5DkN4 Those bad cops are part of the reason why I may choose to leave this career and skydive professionally full time. The other part is people with your attitude that don't appreciate and thank the good ones that are doing a demanding, stressful, and very necessary job for low pay. I am just trying to build my experience up and get all of my ratings in hopes of finding one of the big year round 7 days a week DZ's that will give me a chance to live the dream. Unitl then, I will keep doing my job the best I can and stay true to my oath. I am an asshole, but I am honest

Actually I believe that location is LEGAL I am an asshole, but I am honest

Excellent point SERE. In the back of my mind I knew something wasn't quite right, but just shrugged it off. I just got my TI rating and the money and jumps definitely influenced that. More than the jumps and money though I was just loving taking people for the first skydive and teaching them about our sport. That is what I love most. I just figured I would heal and it wasn't a biggie. Apparently I was wrong. I am an asshole, but I am honest

Nigel99 I know your reply was focused to Bill, however that is what I was saying earlier up thread. No FJC or FFC is going to fight complacency. However, I don't see a lot of up jumpers being onboard with some kind of continuing education and evalutation of theirs skills. Hey lets go tell guys like Nick, Ian, BG, and such that we think they could get complacent so they have to now go do X. Um yeah that won't work, rightfully so. The ONLY way to battle complacency is through CONSTANT SELF-VIGILANCE. Don't take my experience or word for it, just look at all the study and research that has been conducted by the military, the secret service, law enforcement, etc. Your "one off" course comment is what is being implemented. No one is really arguing about what should be taught in a FFC. People pretty much agree on that. But do we need a whole new I & I/E program to teach what has already been being taught? There is NO evidence to suggest that we do. I agree with Ron. We don't have I & I/E for Pro, a point I brought up early in the thread. Hell I would change the verbage there too. I would call it a Pro endorsement. We could have a Wingsuit endorsement system as well. An experienced wingsuit should be allowed to give you a FFC and a couple coach jumps and sign you off. DSE's own quote I posted early up thread confirms the BSR change worked. We do not need to make this more complicated and expensive than it needs to be. There is zero need for a new regime of I/E's just for wingsuits. USPA should set a standardized FFC sure, I can buy that, but to think a Wingsuiter with a couple hundred winguit jumps who is already an instructor in other disciplines can't teach me is ridiculous. I am an asshole, but I am honest

Thanks SEREjumper. I can't believe I have been doing tandems with this injury, and just making it worse. I honestly didn't think it was this bad. I am an asshole, but I am honest

+1,000,000 I am an asshole, but I am honest

Here is an image of the type of injury I sustained I am an asshole, but I am honest

Can you explain what you mean by a "one off" course? Edited to add: Do you even know the courses that Flock-U and DSE teach currently? I am an asshole, but I am honest

The story. Couch Freaks 2011. After doing an awesome head down coach jump with Kiwi Hamilton, one of SkyVenture CO guys, had a normal deployment. It was windy and turbulent. Guessing wind was probably 15 mph or so, and bumpy. Just like EVERY Couch Freaks seems to be. Coming in for landing I opted for my normal set up and approach which was finishing with a 90 degree front riser turn. I am just a baby swooper lol. BTW canopy was a Samurai 136 at or around 1.45 or so. I went to deep brakes, hit my initiation window, and started on double fronts to get her diving like I always do. After maybe a couple of seconds I hit a bump. I am guessing it was turbulance, or a fucking air gremlin, I don't know, but that is when the risers tried to rip out of my hands. Of course, my reaction was to not let that happen as I was mid-dive about to start the turn, so I pulled down a little harder to fight it. That is when I felt it. A little twinge in my left shoulder. I finshed the turn and even got a decent swoop for the strong winds I was landing into. I felt a slight burning sensation runnin down my left deltoid. Now on a scale of 1 to 10 I would call the twinge and burning a 2. It really didn't seem bad. I was 32 years old, fuck it I just pulled or strained something. I will be fine. Well the past month or so I have been waking up at night with pain in my shoulder. It really hasn't bother me too much except that. I finally say fuck man it was a YEAR ago maybe I should go to the doc. Well now I am scheduled for SLAP tear surgery on October 30th. I tore my biceps tendon partly away from where it attachs to the labrum in the shoulder. I will be in a sling and off work for 6 weeks. I will not be able to skydive for at the LEAST 3 months, maybe up to 6. The bright news is at least I will be rehabing over the winter up here. I guess my winterly trip down to FL is in the crapper though. Lesson to be learned. Hell, I guess if it is bumpy don't front riser? You can always swoop another day. I guess I shouldn't have resisted the pressure when I hit that bump. Maybe if I would have been further in my canopy progression on a smaller canopy with less riser pressure it wouldn't have tore. Of course then I would probably have been in over my head. Hell a year ago I KNOW I would have been. I don't know. Maybe some of the upper jumpers can lend their thoughts. It really sucks that I have to go through this shit. I have heard shoulder surgeries are HELL. Anyway not even sure there is anything to learn here, but I figured I owe it to the community to see if there is. I am an asshole, but I am honest

Yes. Or do you actually think all of humanity is going to somehow magically change? Life itself IS a virus and we are a part of it. Viruses live within the cells of their host. The Earth is a cell, and we are a virus adapting within in. The difference is our cell as the ability wipe us out. I love the environment. I grew up playing in the woods, camping, and have always loved animals. Personally I have a conservationist attitude just like you, however I am not niave enough to think that every person on the planet is going to change. Just look at the course of human history, and all the fucked up stuff we have done. The population has continued at a extremely rapid growth that this planet can not contiue to support. Good luck on changing the ways of billions of people, let me know how that goes. The best thing that could happen is somehow harnessing an unlimited source of truly clean energy that could cheaply or freely be distributed globally. But just look at what they did to Tesla. No matter what is done, this planet will either kill us off or we will move on. There is no changing that. The dinosaurs were wiped out too, as we will be in the future, unless we get off this rock. May not happen in our lives, or our childrens, but it WILL happen. I personally hope humanity can find away to escape before then, but maybe it is for the best of the universe that we don't. I am an asshole, but I am honest

I don't think many people seriously doubt the planet is warming. That is statisical fact. I think the debate lies in wether or not the warming is from polution. This planet has a long history of warming and cooling long before polution came around. The iceages were precipitated by warming periods and changing ocean currents. Anyone that argues polution is not damaging though IMO is an idiot. Of course it is. That being said however this planet has had mass extinctions before, and it WILL again. The Earth will shake off humanity like a bad case of the fleas, and that is probably unavoidable. We need to start looking for a new rock, and figure out long distance space travel otherwise we be f#@ked. I am an asshole, but I am honest

I agree and I would support adding a standardized course backing it by mandation through a BSR. I just can not support DSE and a handful of others being the only ones that can teach it. There are PLENTY of wingsuiters out there capable of teaching me the basics of wingsuiting safely. If a buddy that has hundreds of wingsuit jumps is willing to teach me for free then he should be allowed to. We are not talking about an ISP program here. We are talking about jumpers with at the minimum 200 jumps. Can you see a problem with a standardized course being mandated for new coming wingsuiters, but it being allowed by any experienced wingsuiter with at least a coach rating and say 200 WS jumps? This standard would include at least a couple coach jumps. I mean we let coaches with 50 jumps teach the non-method specific portion of the FJC to people that have NEVER skydived before!!! I am all for education and safety Bill. I have been teaching the FJC's at my DZ for two years. I am an instructror in other professions as well which helps. My DZO recently said I did a better job at teaching it then him, which felt like an awesome compliment. Although I can't speak for him Gary Peek would probably approve of my instruction too. I just think this regime of 7 is wholey unnecessary. There will be a significant cost to the USPA, and individual members, all benifiting a few monetarily. Schools like Flock-U and DSE's etc would still be doing their thing, and if qualified I would be able to seek my instruction from a mentor that is qualified. I had the benift of learning a little from a freeflier by the name of Sean Hutto. He has never charged me a dime. Same with Kiwi Hamilton at couch freaks, all I had to do was pay for the 5 jump tickets for him. That is the way it should be. I think there is a middle ground here that would accomplish the same thing, and I wish some of these supporters would just think about that. Many are just going to see the ballot and check yes because the figure "safety" when they haven't done their homework or considered the consequences of instituting this. Would current winguiters be grandfathered to this "rating" or will they have to go pay DSE? This is just wrong, not even needed, and not the only way to accomplish the goals. I am an asshole, but I am honest

This is DSE's quote from his Online opinion Poll sticky. Now correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't this prove the BSR worked? and if so where the hell is there the need for WS-I & I/E? I fully supported the 200 jump BSR, and I could support adding to it as far as seeking instruciton from an experienced WSer but this proposed regime is unfounded. Supporters need to open their eyes and mind instead of blindly supporting bullshit. I am an asshole, but I am honest

Connect the dots. Seriously it isn't hard to figure out who started the issue and the few that stand to benefit. It has been mentioned several times. I am an asshole, but I am honest