Will_Evo

Thanks for that After reading that post, I completely see where I was confused. When I was reading this thread, it sounded like the people for downwind landings were not only doing them for fun, but were landing them on their feet like they would a normal jump. I did not instinctively assume they were sliding it in, getting dirty, and like I did, hoping they don't break themselves. Now it all makes much more sense, and I understand the concept behind the downwind landing this thread it talking about and how to make it down safely...it won't be pretty, but hopefully you walk away. As far as making downwind landings a requirement, I am all against it. If training for a downwind landing means potentially breaking yourself, ruining gear, and being scared shitless(all of which either happened or nearly happened to me), count me out. This is something I feel like you learn as you go, because no matter the size of the canopy you are flying, if the winds are 15mph, you will land at 15mph with the wind, no if's and's or but's about it. To clarify why I landed downwind, both times were bad spots. First one I followed the first guy in, and he chose a downwind approach(there were no wind indicators, winter time, no leaves on trees and in the middle of a plowed field), of course I rolled, bounced, slid my way to a stop with no injury. The second time I knew the direction of wind and started my pattern to land into it, unfortunately I had not considered the large puddles(50 ft across) of water that has built up over the past week's large amount of rain in the fields. The end of my crosswind leg took me right over one of these puddles and I immediately felt a HUGE thermal that partially collasped my canopy.(This part was all my fault) In response, I turned to the fastest way away from the thermal, which put me at 150-200 ft up landing downwind. I sucked it up, flared, rolled bounced, slip doing again 15-20mph. Not fun, or exciting. Lesson here? don't set up over huge puddles, keep calm in an emergency, and do your best for a downwind landing lol -Evo Zoo Crew

So I feel like a fool for asking this, but rather be a fool than dead. I consider myself(as well as others) to be a decently competent canopy pilot for my experience level, and have made a few downwind landings(not on purpose) and gotta say I thought I broke my legs both times. Luckily both time I landed in a recently plowed field. What is the appropriate procedure for making a safe downwind landing, and what are the wind speeds we are talking here. It seems to be getting all muttled up as if a 5 mph down wind landing is a big deal, or takes any amount of skill that is not already present in a normal into wind landing. if you really want to get technical, the only real need for downwind landing would be in winds that are not safe to practice them and in a situation where a upwind landing was not possible. I know in my two experiences, I flared, and must have still been doing 15-20mph when I hit the ground. Not something I ever want to do again, whether it be on purpose or by accident. I got up patting my legs making sure I didn't break anything. You all seem to want to make this type of training mandatory, but unless you are training in swooping, what kind of experience can one get when the training required needs to be done in moderate winds? I don't know, maybe I am missing something here, but I don't consider landing with the wind in 5mph winds a big deal or a true downwind landing..on the other hand, 10-20, yes and I have no idea what I would do different besides what I did and that is flare and hope I don't break myself on landing. Like I said, I am pretty competent for my level of experience and have 10-15 crw jumps, a crw course and canopy course under my belt. No doubt I have a long way to go(especially since I apparently don't know how to land downwind safely) but this just seems ridiculous to me. The only thing I can think of doing is lengthing my flare, but if the winds are 15mph I am going to hit at 15, that is neither safe, nor fun. -Evo Zoo Crew

+1 on Transmission I use Piratebay.org to get the torrent files Zoo Crew

No joke dude, and props to Pat and Nick for an awesome job editing! Oh and those two dude busting out some CRW -Evo Zoo Crew

What the hell, where was I when these mysterious jello shots were consumed? bahaha. Zoo Crew

There, registration paid today. Very excited to attend Work Stinks again, last year was outstanding! -Evo Zoo Crew

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm16UMHd0YQ Check that one out and the relates "Zoo Crew" videos and then become a fan on the Zoo Crews facebook page -Evo Zoo Crew

Aw, Epic fail...well lemme see if I can get it put on youtube. I'll post a better link soon! It is an Awesome video :-D -Evo Zoo Crew

Enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm16UMHd0YQ -Evo EDIT to fix link! Zoo Crew

When did I say AAD's should be mandatory? When did I insist everyone have one? I do not agree with either of those statements. Why are you getting angry, I never said you couldn't argue, I said "don't argue against their use, as if its a black and white situation" Which boils down to recognizing the negatives AND positives and presenting that information on these forums and to new jumpers who are on the fence about getting an AAD. This way it IS a choice, not the result of an instructors personal opinion. -Evo Zoo Crew

I honestly don't know, I wasn't there and I was not in that situation. I would only argue that someone in a flat-spin, who you say "gave-up" , only had a few seconds to spare anyways, so he/she probably had no other choice but to hope the cypress fired, cause I'm sure in those few seconds they had, they were trying to fix the problem. I have heard of other instances where people waited, but again not because they wanted to, it was because they needed it. The other one I heard of pulled his/her main, nothing happened, then reserve, nothing happened, and without any other option, waited for the cypress. I wouldn't call that relying, Id call that a lucky deal.(I think there is a video of that save) I just read the list, and nearly 99% of those are not people relying on an AAD. Just because they didn't do anything to clear the malfunction(and that is what all of those say) doesn't mean they didn't do it because they "knew" an AAD would fire. You can interpret that list however you like to bolster your argument, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, those people are still alive, regardless if they did, or didn't rely on the AAD. I would also argue that even if those people relied on their AAD, how many do you think would have ended up saving themselves without a cypress? Enough to write off AAD's altogether? Lets not kid ourselves here, like Wendy said, AAD's are not perfect, they can be bad for a situation, no doubt, but when they are truly needed , wouldn't you rather have a 50-50 chance of living, than none at all? I mean, if I told you your reserve will only work 50% of the time, would you stop using one? Like I told Wendy, I don't really "care" if people use them or not, that is your decision, but don't ague against a piece of safety equipment, that has been proven to save lives. Regardless if it could possibly kill you, the chances of it saving you are greater, even if by 1%, and that is enough for people to use them, and enough to keep people alive, no matter the reason for their use. If you want to see people stop relying on an AAD like you say, then in-doctrine that training into an AAF course, make it clearly known the risks and benefits and that they are only back-ups and teach them that they don't work 100% of the time, but don't argue against their use, as if its a black and white situation. Help bolster the educated use of them, not breed blind absence of them. All of this meant in the kindest of ways, like I said I don't "care" if people use them or not, I jump with people regularly who don't, just don't agree with people arguing against their use.(it creates the image that they shouldn't be used at all by anyone) -Evo Zoo Crew

Someone is beign a bit of a drama queen haha no but seriously...lets be serious, nobody relies on an AAD, if we have an AAD fire, we needed it, not wanted it. I don't think you will ever meet anyone who regularly has a cypress fire, because they think it is fail proof, thats making a very gross assumption and overplaying the situation greatly. You guys do realize that you are arguing against a safety device...made for safety? Replace the word AAD and Cypress with the word reserve handle. Now how silly do we all sound. if you just don't want to spend the money, say it, but don't make arguments against a piece of equipment that saves lives, it sounds silly. -Evo Zoo Crew

I agree....AAD's aren't always on...they have an on and off. Just like an RSL. I have one, but when I do crw, it's not connected. The two compelling arguments against an AAD are expense, and multiple rigs. I can see that a jumper only making 10 jumps a month, would not want sacrifice those jumpers for many months to be able to afford an AAD. I can also see that someone jumping in excess of 3 rigs, having an AAD in each one would be extremely expensive and hard to keep maintained especially if they are a cypress. Also, I mean what are the odds of someone having a mal on one of 5 rigs they use, and it happens to be the one with the AAD. The chances just aren't there, they are more likely to need to deal with a bad situation than to be saved in one. So I can see this argument. -Evo Zoo Crew

I feel like this is being over complicated and or, things being suggested, would fail, especially when in a fast track dive with an experienced back tracker leading the dive. You can't sacrifice your cupped composure at any point in time in the dive, if you arched you would not only get below the dive, but you'd fall behind. All of the following suggestions include keeping your upper body cupped 1. Ahead & Level -Widen your arms and legs a bit, create a bit more drag. But be aware you can't see what is behind you. it'd almost be better to get higher first, then fall back, and rejoin the dive. 2. Behind & Level -Make your legs and Arms as rigid as possible while bringing them closer together and to your body, maintaing a "cupped" composure with your upper body. Should reduce the drag enough to give you some forward speed. 3. Ahead & Below -Don't try and recover from this position unless you first fall back using #1 and then get back level and catch back up doing each separately coming up and back could be bad in a track dive. 6. Behind & Below-Cup your upper body more, and bring your legs and arms in as far as possible and make them rigid so can catch up. 4. Ahead & Above - Again this instance you should fall back first, get level, and then rejoin the dive, don't just try and come down and back at the same time, you've got a blind spot behind you. 5. Behind & Above -Bring your arms and legs closer to your body and together, and bend your knees a bit. The knees will drop you and the closing of the extremities will speed you up(assuming you maintain a cupped composure with your upper body). In an extreme case that you were way high, you may think about dipping your head down a bit, but realize this is going to drastically increase the gap between your decent rate and the tracking decent rate. The whole point of tracking is to go as far as possible while remaining as floating as possible. Like everyone said Im still a newbie, but this what I was taught and what I use. Hope it makes sense. -Evo Zoo Crew

Holy Crap! Zoo Crew

All though that is not a response I would want if there really was a problem, I gotta tell ya man, I jump a Z1, and in 15 jumps, those scratches will dwarf in comparison to the new scratches you get. I promise noone will see those little scratches in the air. -Evo Zoo Crew

It is a bit of a drive, but I live near Alexandria as well and I am in the military, and I jump at Skydive Delmarva in Delaware. it's not the closest, but I went there once, and decided it was my kind of place. West Point is cool too, awesome people at both. Delmarva's safety day is Saturday March 27th if you wanna come out. Got a big crew of free flyers out there puttin in work if that's your thing. -Evo EDIT: In hindsight, I forgot you only have 6 jumps, so if free flying is your thing...something is probably wrong lol :-P Zoo Crew

Oh Cool! What an awesome opportunity -Evo. Zoo Crew

Who jumped into the stadium tonight? Anyone have a clue? -Evo Zoo Crew

Thanks for the jumps Z-Hills. Made my pre second chopper jump and my 100th there the past couple days. Rock on! -Evo Zoo Crew

2 Corinthians 6 (New American Standard Bible) 14Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? The Bible clearly warns us not to be in relationship with someone of a different faith. We always have choices and there are no guarantees in life. If both persons have the same faith then they have a common rule or foundation when troubles arise and, they will. Yea, no I can see your thought process there...same way Hitler felt about the Jews. Your religious conclusions absolutely disgust me. Do really think you are "better" than non-believers? You really expect someone to accept a faith that promotes segregation? Are you even listening to yourself? You sound like any other person who caused segregation in this country, I imagine people had this same mind set when the US was still a white black segregated country. Zoo Crew

Ill be there doing my 100 jump. Its funny, every time I go to Z-hills, something happens, last time it was my B license. Looking forward to the sunny skies. Zoo Crew

No. God did not present himself physically to the world, he did it through his creation. Examine the truth, would you even (especially in todays modern technological advancements) believe it was the spirit of God if he did show himself? Jesus warns that the anti christ will have great powers to decieve even the elect... forgive me, but it didnt even take a great power to decieve your mind, and yet you continue to speak adamantly against what was never revealed to you in the first place. I couldnt disagree more. God is not about explanation, he is about revelation. And right now, in this day and age, people would benefit greatly from the true meaning of Christ. To the first bolded section. The ten tablets Jesus walking the earth after his death Jesus(He is god) doing all the miracles Angles speaking to multitudes of people The Plagues of Egypt ...we can go all day, and those ARE physical things the bible says god did. To the second bolded part: All a god, has ever been in history, every single one of them, was to explain the unexplainable. Don't mean to burst your bubble but the christian god was not the original, man has been worshiping gods for as long as we gained the ability to reason...every one of them was an explanation for things people could not explain. man worshiped the sun for thousands of years, why? Because it controlled so much of their lives, they didn't know what it was, but they understood its affects on their daily lives so they treated it as a god. What i said about man and technology is a personal hypothesis, but I gotta say, the latest statistics are in my favor. Zoo Crew

Avoiding the point does not answer a question. The question brought a point, it was that in biblical times, according to the bible, god frequently presented himself physically to the world, and now, nothing. Its not a coincidence, men use this trait all the time, taking advantage of a situation when it is relevant, and ceasing the activity when people know better. Making god present himself physically in a time where the world was intellectually numb to modern ideas of science, was a genius idea for someone trying to promote the bible, I mean, the people of that day and age didn't know any better, you could have told them anything and they would have believed it. Of course these days you never hear anyone, ever say they saw an ocean split in two, or water turn into wine, or someone walk on water etc..because people know better. Its not a coincidence, we just happened to wise up a bit. I have said it before, and I will say it again, as man progresses through the ages, and man becomes more technologically advanced, there will be no need for a god, nothing a god used to be needed to explain, will need explaining anymore. -Evo Zoo Crew

Just wanted to point something out, landing off does not have to be a hard landing. Don't think that just because you must land off, that the landing will be terrible. You still have a flare, its the same landing youve done 25 times before, just not on the DZ. Recon up high, conduct a landing pattern if possible, and land into the wind like always. Of course there are circumstances where a hard landing cannot be avoided, but most of the time, you can pull off a smooth landing. Otherwise congrats, it'll happen again -Evo Zoo Crew