dudeman17

Congratulations on your first jump and congratulations on your new-found addiction. You should probably run now, as fast as you can, before all your plans for the rest of your life vanish in a puff of turbine exhaust. You have gotten some good encouragement here. However, there is one thing I am compelled to address. Regarding AFF training... No, no, a thousand times no. This is as bad a thing as you can tell a prospective AFF student. Please never tell one this again. Solo skydiving, even once, even the first time, is not Disneyland. It is not even skiing, surfing, or mountain biking. It is a total commitment, and a blatant act of self-reliance. A solo skydiver, even on their first jump, should be trained, prepared, and self-confident enough that in theory, they should be able to perform the jump alone. They should be able to exit, maintain their stability, maintain awareness of their altitude, perform their tasks, pull on time, deal with their opening, perform EPs if necessary, identify their landing area and wind conditions, fly a proper pattern and land - by theirself. Now to be sure, a student should never be allowed to actually do that. Freefall stability is a subtle thing and can be tricky to learn. So yes, instructors go with. They help maintain stability, they have hand signals whereby they can help trim up the student's body position, and prompt them along their dive sequence, including altitude checks and when to pull. And if the student has trouble with the pull, the instructors can assist, and often do pull for the student. And while under canopy, there is (one-way) radio assistance. But all of this should be considered by the student as assistance, and should never be relied on as primary function. Students do sometimes flail exits and lose their instructors, and radios do sometimes fail. If a student is not prepared and confident to see it this way, they should keep training until they are. If they can't achieve this, they should stick to tandems or reconsider what they are getting themselves into. Yeah... umm, NO.

Why were his examiner ratings suspended?

Of course. This is all just interesting conversation. Disagreement just adds more pieces to the thought puzzle. If there is anything personal in it, for me it is the camaraderie of the shared interest. --- Apparently I read it wrong, but... ...sounded like 'I am choosing to accept this as fact'. --- Personally, I would put 'proving' before 'knowing'. --- I would think that those insights would differ depending on whether or not it was real. --- It's just part of the curiosity, but... ...as something cool to say, I like the 'dirty thief' line better!

I will re-state my usual disclaimer. I do not independently research this case, I am not actively trying to solve it. I have my own reasons for being interested, so I follow along. I do throw in a few cents' worth about the logistics of parachuting, because that is something that I do know about. And none of this is personal argument for me, just interesting discussion. But... This is something where I have a fundamental disagreement with some people who do research, and are trying to solve the case. Some people want to take their opinion of a likely scenario, and move it into the realm of fact. I cannot follow this. Sure, taking a likely scenario and seeing where it leads is part of how research is done, and may well lead to some proof. But the likely scenario itself is not proof. If someone comes up with an ultimate solve, if any link in their chain is supposition and not fact, then their proof may go poof. My personal take is that there is so much about this case that we do not, can not, know for sure, and likely never will. If it has not been definitively solved by now it likely never will be. But I could be wrong about that as well, and it is certainly no reason to stop trying.

That's an interesting take. On the other hand, he might have kept his hand in there anyway to maintain the 'authenticity of the ruse'. On the other other hand, if the bomb was fake, maybe he might have left it on the plane so that the authorities would know that it was fake, so that if he got caught maybe his sentence would be less severe. Maybe this, maybe that... Another thing I wonder about is his 'grudge'. He had a grudge - not against the airline, but a grudge. So what was that about? Was he maybe expecting to get caught, then he could publicize his grudge? But then he gets away with it, or gets killed, and we never find out... Maybe the grudge was just personal and the money was his answer? So much about this case, and we'll likely never know the answers. I guess that's why we still talk about it after half a century...

For the sake of conversation and with all due respect, I'm going to rebut some of your essay. This assessment is not accurate. Cooper asked for four parachutes, two fronts and two backs. What he was asking for was two complete freefall rigs, mains (back) and reserves (front). I think it's a fair guess that he asked for two rigs to ensure that they gave him good ones for fear that he might make someone else jump. In those days there wasn't a whole lot of difference in freefall rigs. Containers were all of similar design and function. Same with main canopies. They were mostly basic round canopies with some pattern of drive slots in the back. They all performed similarly to each other. So for him not to demand a specific type means nothing. The fly in the ointment came when, instead of main parachutes, they gave him pilot emergency bailout rigs. But by then he was already agitated with time delays, so he wasn't going to send them back for more. He didn't 'choose badly', he made do with what he was given. This, too, is inaccurate. Sure, night, weather, and varying terrain are not ideal, but they're not certain death either. A while back you stated that you discount any suspect that was alive the next day. I asked why, but you didn't answer. Here is the reality of his jump. If Cooper has the nerve to go through with this heist, he has it in him to pull the ripcord. It's not that hard. If he pulls the ripcord, he all but assuredly gets an open parachute, regardless of his stability or lack thereof. I base this on decades of parachuting experience and working with first time and inexperienced jumpers. It is also consistent with Andrade's research on WW2 bailouts and 377's personal experience in his learning phase. The money bag is not all that dissimilar to a front mount reserve. He was prepared to jump with both, which would still be less weight and bulk than what many paratroopers jump with. But the bailout rigs don't accommodate the front reserves, so as long as the money bag was securely tied on and didn't flop around or trail him, it shouldn't cause any problems. Cooper's main risk is whether he is injured on landing and unable to hike out. And that is mainly dependent on exactly the type of terrain he lands in. And you can all correct me if I'm wrong about this, but it's my understanding that he had a fair amount of relatively flat open area below him. And while it would certainly be better to have a controllable sport main, even basic pilot emergency parachutes are designed to save pilots' lives, not kill them. I'm guessing he had at least a little bit of jumping experience. He blew off the written directions, he seemed to be familiar with putting the harness on, and he was familiar with flap settings and flying 'dirty', with the landing gear down. If he wasn't an experienced skydiver or paratrooper, I'm guessing he probably at least took a course and made a couple jumps, so that this one wouldn't be his first. I disagree with this as well. I think there was a good chance that the bomb was fake. Sure, I could be wrong, the bomb might have been real and he may have been willing to use it. But it didn't need to be real. In that era, there were a fair amount of hijackings, and I think it's fairly common knowledge that in any public hostage situation the companies involved and the authorities are going to meet the perpetrators' demands. They're just not going to call the bluff and risk innocent lives. So the bomb did not need to be real, just the threat of it. So if it was fake, then he put exactly nobody at risk. And the jump posed no risk to anyone but himself, and as I have stated, far less than you seem to think. As for scaring people, the passengers didn't even know what was happening until they were off the plane and away from Cooper. As for the flight crew, they work in an aviation environment. If they are easily frightened, they didn't think their career choice through.

Yes, I realize you were ribbing us. But it was sort of on topic. Nick indicated a while back that he wanted to make a Cooper style jet jump, and I just wanted to make sure he knew that Perris was flying it's jet again. I suppose the rest of it could have been handled in PMs. Sorry to disrupt the flow of discourse. Anyways, more on topic...

Good to know you're fine!

A bit off topic, but... Which brings to mind that we haven't heard from Rob in a while. His profile says he hasn't logged in since last September. Does anyone know if he's all right? ----------------- Does that mean that their fresh repair looked old and well-worn? hehe

Wow, ok, that's cool! Their original post said they weren't going to do that, but their instructors probably pitched a fit and said 'let us, let us!'. A bit of advice - if you're going to wear a suit*, do like Cooper and leave the tie behind, and wear a shirt with a button-down collar. The wind whips loose stuff around, and a normal collar will rake your neck! *(Edit to add - the exit speed of that jet is pretty high, you'll want to inquire beforehand whether they'll let you wear a suit at all.)

Curious if you went out, and what you found out. What you need to know is what license, experience level, and gear requirements they have. Your first license comes at 25 jumps, and people do that on student gear, before looking for their own rig. If you're going to continue jumping as a hobby, you've got some breathing room. If you just want to do what's necessary to do a 'Cooper' jet jump, you'll want to know if they'll let you do it on post-AFF rental gear.

Hey NickyB... I don't know if you saw this, but Perris flew a couple loads in their jet yesterday and are planning on flying some this weekend. I don't know what that bodes for the future, but I can't imagine them putting the cost and effort into it if they weren't hoping to make it a regular thing. It's a DC-9, not a 727, but it's as close as you're likely to get. They won't do tandems out of it, licensed jumpers only. I would've thought they might want a B or C license, but their Facebook page just says 'licensed'. The first license, A, is at 25 jumps. I don't know if you're still interested in that, but if you are, you should call them and ask what their plans are. If so, it would be time for you to get into AFF classes. Train with us at Elsinore!

Truly incredible legacy. ------- What happened with the carton of milk?

Actually he did ask me about it some time ago. But I don't independently research the case, most of what I know about it I got from you guys here and on Shutter's forum, so what could I say about it that you guys don't already know better than me? Meanwhile, Darren just made another 'with my good friend' post with no other comment. So either he doesn't read this thread or he didn't find the humor in my post. Oh well, sorry. hehe

Why do you only speak with your 'good friends'? I keep waiting for you to announce an episode where you speak with 'some random asshole who thinks they know something about Cooper'. haha

You only need 3 like-minded people. Maybe find people who are thinking of taking an AFF instructor course. It's good practice for them.

Ramble, Forrest, ramble!

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This wasn't hugely common due to the logistics, but happened primarily for a few years at the annual World Freefall Convention, earlier known as the Freak Brothers Convention. This was an annual event thrown by Roger Nelson, an early skydiving pioneer and marijuana smuggler. Roger was an interesting, colorful, and ballsy character. Those interested in Cooper-type adventures may want to read the book 'Sugar Alpha: The Life and Times of Señor Huevos Grandes', written from Roger's notes by his daughter Melissa Nelson. It covers his smuggling days and is a great read.

Hi Craig, thanks for looking in. I was hoping you'd remember more, but that's ok. If Craig Fronk was an aeronautical engineer and spent significant time at Perris, do you think that you'd have been acquainted with him? The first video of the Elsinore 50-way was Carl's, and the sequence was in 'Skydive!'. The second, Mirror Image video was BJ Worth's, with help from Rande DeLuca and others.

I have a couple questions... Pardon me if I have this wrong, but about Tina - Until the recent RS interview, and the movie thing(?), she was somewhat media shy, right? I know she appeared on at least one TV special, but after the event, she didn't like being associated with it? Didn't she at one point abscond herself to a nunnery? If that's right, does someone know exactly when that was, month and year? Olemiss, in the beginning of that stream thing you did recently with Nicky, you said you had a list of like 400(?) possible suspects? Where do those come from? FBI files, conjecture from yourself and others, some combination? Is there a way I could see that list?

Yes. I believe Craig spent the bulk of his prime competitive career with Mirror Image. For several years Visions and Mirror Image were cross-state rivals, both striving to unseat the formidable US Army Golden Knights, who's full time job was to win skydiving competitions. (Who was the guy that ran that team, Andy somethingorother?) I think it was after MI disbanded that Craig and Hod jumped with Visions, along with Al, for one season, perhaps Visions' last. I don't think he actually lived here for any time, or I would be more familiar with him. I've lived in and jumped So Cal all my life.

Huh?? Did you look at the video I linked to? The 2nd comment, someone names the team members including Craig, and he can be seen several times in the video. Jerry Swovelin could clear this up, but I don't think he comes in here anymore except when he has news to post. I'm not on Facebook, but if you are (or someone else who's reading), maybe someone in the Old School Skydivers' page can confirm one way or the other.

Again, it's been a long time and maybe I've forgotten some things... But the way I remember it, Visions ran for a number of years. I think the Coors sponsorship only lasted two seasons, then they went back to being Visions. I know Craig (and Hod Sanders) jumped with them for a bit, but I think that was only one season towards the end. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but your term 'move out' sort of sounds like 'hostile takeover'. I can't imagine any of those people having anything but the utmost respect for each other. Maybe Al sort of retired from it at the end, but I don't remember that. I don't remember a Visions that wasn't led by Al, and I was a regular at Perris through that era. I was kind of hoping Kleggo would chime in, because he was too. I'm certainly aware of Craig Fronk, but I'm not as familiar with him. But you might be forgetting and conflating the years he spent with Mirror Image in Pope Valley (where he might have took over for Jerry Bird?) between his times in WA and SoCal. (thanks, Wendy!)

Well it's been a long time, but I thought Al was running the team the whole time, even when Craig was there. If Craig was who got them the sponsorship that may well be, but the way I remember it... But it has been a long time and I could be wrong myself... Kleggo, you reading this? Do you remember? ----------------- On a side note, did you do anything to make that link a clicky? I don't know how that works, all I know is to copy and paste the url. Sometimes it embeds, sometimes it clickies, sometimes it does neither, and I don't do anything different?