dudeman17

What happened with Shutter's forum?

There is so much that is odd, conflicting, or doesn't make sense about obtaining the chutes. It's my understanding that the FBI didn't tell anybody what they were for, is that right? So the FBI asks, and people just hand them over, no questions asked? If they knew there was a hostage situation and they're trying to keep a criminal from blowing people up, I can see them cooperating, but otherwise? The flight service guy that gets Hayden's rigs, he's aviation oriented, you'd think that he'd know enough to say that those chutes are for emergencies and not really suitable for intentional jumps. And the chutes form the dropzone. Who did they talk to? Did they call Cossey? Did they call the dropzone? Emrick makes the comment about looking for older ones - if they called the dz and Emrick answered, he owns the place and knows his gear, he wouldn't necessarily need to call Cossey. Cossey mentions a skydiver staying at the loft - does that guy answer the phone, then call Cossey asking what to do? Whether he's mistaken or lying, Cossey's first description sounds like they sent a sport rig (with D-rings) and a good reserve, and a bailout rig (no D-rings) and a dummy reserve. If Cossey knows what's going on, is that his way of discouraging the hijacker from making Tina jump? But Cossey doesn't know, right? If I'm Emrick and I answer the phone and they're asking for chutes, I'm going to ask what they're for. People should know what they're doing with these things. And my thought would be to send student gear. It's nobody's personal rigs, and in that era they'd be basic military surplus gear, and the easiest to replace? And if they tell Emrick that they have back ones and just need front ones, isn't he going to ask about that? He would know that front ones aren't compatible with bailout rigs. Does he just keep his mouth shut about that so as not to volunteer two more of his rigs? And it says that Cooper had already opened the good reserve before Tina brought in the last parachute. Was that last one the dummy reserve? You'd think that if he had them both there, he'd open the dummy and get the lines out of that. But if he opened the good one before seeing the dummy, that may have pissed him off and be what prompted him to pitch that one out, out of frustration. And the FBI relying on Cossey's descriptions after the fact - even if Cossey was honestly mistaken, the FBI would know which ones they gave. Every time Cossey starts to describe his gear, you'd think they'd say no, we gave Cooper the Hayden bailout rigs, describe those (knowing Cossey packed them)? ???????

If he coiled several loops for each tie point it might likely have held. Especially with bailout rigs, which are rigger-packed reserve type gear, parachute malfunctions are rare, and even among malfunctions it would be rare to have a complete pack closure total or a completely uninflated streamer. Most malfunctions are 'partial', where they mostly deploy but get knotted up somehow during inflation, which results in a canopy that is partially or mostly inflated, and he would be significantly slowed down. In those days the reserve procedures usually did not involve releasing the main canopy, and with the bailout rigs you can not release them. So feeding a reserve out during a partial malfunction would not involve a full terminal opening shock, it would just inflate smoothly and add drag to whatever was already there. Also, he likely could have attached the reserve clips to the leg strap hardware. That would hang the reserve lower which would be an awkward point to be hanging from, but it would make more room to tie the money bag above it.

To specify, I think that setup only applies to front pack bailout rigs. As always I could be wrong, but I don't think there are any back chute bailout rigs that do not have integrated harnesses. The crewman would not be able to attach that by himself. Actually he would have. One, the dropzone would have a few for their pilots and people taking observer rides, and Cossey may refer to them as 'his' because he runs the loft and does the rigging on them. Second, I think he would have one of his own. When an instructor puts out static line students, he does not jump with them. Especially if he has another load waiting, it's more efficient for him to just ride down with the airplane. If he's wearing a full rig with main and front reserve, it's big, cumbersome, and in the way. It's easier to just wear a smaller, sleeker, lighter bailout rig with no front reserve, and that was a common practice. It is unlikely that the dropzone would have any of those independent harness with front pack bailout systems. That was a military aircrew item, and not prevalent in the civilian sport arena, either jumpers or aerobatic pilots. The front reserves they would have would be for reserves on freefall rigs with mains.

If you've seen the movie Ford vs Ferrari, the plane that Matt Damon as Carroll Shelby does that buzz job in is a Twin Beech. That airplane is owned by the same guy that owned the DC-3 that was in the James Bond movie Quantum of Solace. In years past, both of those planes were regular jump planes at Elsinore and Perris. I've got God knows how many jumps out of them. Here they are buzzing Elsinore. Ain't nuthin' like a radial...

Intentional jumps, therefore mains and reserves. ------- The standard has always been that main chute ripcords were on the right, to be pulled with the right hand. Front reserves, the ripcord was usually on the right side as well, but some had the ripcord on the top, the idea being that you could get at it with either hand. Bailout rigs, the ripcord has always been on the left side, you could do a normal type pull with the left hand or a cross-pull with the right hand. On piggyback gear (main and reserve both on the back), main ripcord on the right, reserve ripcord on the left. Something interesting with the picture below: You can see that some of them have the normal type ripcord handle on the right, while some of them have that kind of knobby looking handle coming over the left shoulder. That is also the main ripcord. That handle was known as a 'blast handle'. I remember seeing some of those, but on the right in the normal position. Those handles were a problem. They clipped onto the end of the ripcord housing. If you pulled it kind of off to the side and not directly off of the housing, they sometimes didn't want to come off the housing, and several people struggled with them until impact. My guess is that these here were mounted on the left and a right-handed cross-pull would get them more straightly off of the housing. They were eventually banned.

This is interesting thought, and would depend on Cooper's experience with parachutes. If he had sport or paratroop experience, I would think that he would want a main, because they have forward drive and controllability, giving him better control of a landing area. But if he was a crewman and more familiar with bailout rigs, he might see them as having more assured opening reliability, being rigger-packed reserves.

Did any of the front bailout rigs you found have integrated harnesses, permanently attached to the container, or were they all independent harnesses to which one would attach the separate container, like CooperNWO305 and I have described?

Parachutes are pretty basic, and especially in those days when they were all round canopies, they were all fairly similar. So anyone who was familiar with any type should easily be able to figure out any of them. Back chute harnesses are all about the same, so if you know how to put one on then you do. A few of them had slightly different chest strap attachments, but nothing that should befuddle anyone. Anyone making an intentional jump, sport or paratrooper, would have a back main with D-rings for a front reserve. A military pilot or crewman, or a sport aerobatic flyer (such as Hayden) does not intend to jump, so the back bailout rig they would use is a reserve, so they don't have D-rings. A sport jumper at somewhere like Elsinore would not use a bailout rig, but they would see them being worn by either the pilots or people just taking observer rides (and landing with the airplane). It sounds to me like he was asking for two rigs, mains and reserves. However, Flyjack presents other possibilities...

A youtube video about this was posted in Bonfire the other day. I believe Tom Cruise first learned to skydive while he was in Florida filming Days of Thunder, which came out in 1990. In that era I knew a jumper who worked with one of the major Hollywood catering companies that feed movie crews, one that Tom like to use. Tom knew this guy was a jumper, and a few times on location he had my friend find a local dropzone that he could sneak off to to make some jumps on off days. TC also did HALO jumps for one of the other MI movies, and while he was promoting that one he jumped along with James Cordon doing a tandem (not as the TI). That was at Perris, and I don't think Dan BC would sign off on that unless he was capable. I don't know if he stays constantly current, or how many total jumps he has, but he's certainly no whuffo approaching this stunt. Plus, as you said, a lot of preparation specifically for this. So yeah, hats off to him indeed.

I remember an old quote from Burt Reynolds where he said that any actor who does his own stunts is taking a check out of a stuntman's pocket. But it seems that Tom Cruise has built himself a movie star career specifically so he can do the funnest stuff he can think of. Good on him. And good on all the people who got a cool job and a fat paycheck helping him out. I'll paraphrase another old quote: Whosoever among us is not jealous may cast the first stone. Ha!

This is interesting. For all the idea of Cossey being mistaken about this and lying about that, this article would seem to indicate that Cossey knew the very next day that the chutes given to Cooper were not his, but the bailout rigs obtained from the local flight service.

I liked when those other two jumpers weighed in recently. They were around in Cooper's day, and by their profiles at least one of them was a rigger. I started jumping in '79. I went through my student training on that older type of 'gutter gear', back mains and front reserves, but quickly graduated to more modern piggyback gear, with both main and reserve on the back. And I'm not a rigger, because I've never been interested in that job. So I know generally how that gear was set up and how it works, but I don't know the finer details of specific gear of that era. That thing pictured certainly appears to be parachute container materials. Obviously there is no canopy there. It kind of looks to be the right size for a front reserve container, but if there's more folded behind what can be seen it might be a back container. Those two metal snaps are exactly the type that hook a front reserve on to the D-rings on a harness, but they could also be leg strap attachments on a back container. That pocket on the lower left looks like it might be holding a packing card. But that pocket should be on the outside of the container, so as to be accessible on a packed rig. But that looks more like the inside of the container, and that those clips seem to be attached to the other side is consistent with that. But if that was the inside, I would expect to see the risers there, and I don't. I also don't see any of the grommets, cones, or loops that would be the pack closures. The configuration of the straps at the bottom, and that the top right seems to show some kind of loop is more consistent with a back. I could be wrong, but I'm not familiar with any typical front mount container that had it's own integrated harness. I think there was a type of aircrew bailout rig where the crewman wore a harness that had no container on it, but it had the D-rings. I think the idea was that they already had the harness on, so they wouldn't have to fumble with that in an emergency bailout situation, but they wouldn't have to be wearing the whole rig, which would be bulky and cumbersome in tight spaces. There would be the front reserve containers stored somewhere, so if they had to bail all they would have to do would be grab the container and snap it on to the front of their harness. I dunno. That certainly appears to be a container of some sort, but I can't tell exactly what type. I made some edits, because I was trying to look at it as a front, because supposedly that's what McNally had? But the more I look at it it looks more like a back. I'd need to see it held up or the other side.

That's what it sounds like to me. He asks for two backs and two fronts, that sounds like mains and reserves, two complete rigs. I think the thought is that if he asks for multiple chutes, then they might be less likely to give him sabotaged ones for fear he might make someone else jump with him. (His comment to Tina, 'You'll like where we are going'... ??) His terminology... He might not know the proper terms? He might know the proper terms, but he's trying to simplify it? He might know the proper terms, but he's trying to hide that fact? You've mentioned about Braeden, that he was a badass and Cooper wasn't. I'm not advocating for Braeden, just speculating, but if Cooper was a CIA badass, he might well make efforts to obscure that fact. If all the witnesses were saying that they thought he was a CIA badass, that would certainly send the FBI in specific directions looking for suspects. Military gear... Yes, most military gear would have been set up for static line, which he wouldn't want, or bailout rigs, which he also wouldn't want or why would he ask for front reserves? R99 says that there was some military HALO (freefall) jumping in those days, but that would have been a small minority of gear the military would have available.

Well, in newer movies such things are often part of the story line, like someone going through a mid-life crisis or something, but in the older movies it's just sort of matter-of-fact, like it's just the normal thing, not even mentioned or noticed as out of the ordinary.

When I went through Yosemite's legal wringer in '82, Scott Gediman asked me, "Why are they so mad at you guys?" I replied, "I was hoping you could tell me", although I already knew. ------- On Jeopardy this week, there was a guy who looked a lot like Carl.

And on the other side of things, Piper Laurie was 47 to a 23 year old Mel Gibson in 'Tim'.

One thing that I've found kind of odd, is watch old movies from the 40's or 50's. They often portray significant age differences. It's common to see actresses in their twenties playing the love interest or spouse to actors in their forties and fifties. One movie I saw a while back, it was a true story about a backwoods hick who became a WWll hero, and at the end he goes home and marries his longtime girlfriend. I don't know if this was historically accurate, but the actor was in his forties and the actress was sixteen.

Pilot bailout rigs are reserves. That's why they don't have D-rings. The canopies are reserves, designed, built, tested and TSO'd as such. Required to be packed by a rigger, which is why they have seals and packing cards. None of that applies to mains. Did McNally just have a military airman's harness, with no back container, just the D-rings to attach the front reserve pack?

So was Cooper.

I always got a chuckle out of the shot that appears at the end of this video (5:00). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw8OJJQ_hgk

Well the bottom line is that if the front chute had it's card, and there were two other cards with the remaining back chute, then that eliminates Gryder's rig, because it would not have one. With the totality of things I've read, it sounds like Cossey had a bailout rig that he used when putting out static line students, and not jumping himself. That would not have D-rings. I have confirmed with an instructor/rigger from that era that that was a common practice, as a full sport rig with front reserve would be cumbersome and awkward. It sounds like he may have moved the ripcord handle in order to keep it farther away from a possibly panicked student who might inadvertently grab it. That makes sense. But that would not require some flailing, multi-directional arm movement, like you were doing semaphore or something. As a mechanical device, a ripcord could not be more simple. It's a thin wire cable with pins attached. The pins go through pack closures to hold the container shut. Pulling the ripcord far enough to move the pins, a matter of inches, will open the container. His description to the FBI sounds like Cossey Drama. It sounds like Cossey originally thought, or later claimed, or whatever, that he sent two back rigs, the above one and a sport rig. The sport rig would have D-rings, and it sounds like that's the one Gryder thinks he's found. But however that worked, the existence to the cards eliminates that.

Definitive evidence of the chutes is the existence of the packing cards. Didn't Cossey's description say that one of his chutes was his bailout rig (that he wore when putting out static line students and not jumping himself) and the other was a sport rig? The sport rig would have the D-rings to attach a front reserve, but it would NOT have a packing card. Sport reserves and pilot emergency rigs are required to be packed by a rigger, and thus have the packing cards. Sport mains do not. The dummy reserve would not have one. The real reserve, that Cooper opened and cut lines from, would have one. Both of Hayden's rigs would have one. A sport main such as Cossey's, or the one Gryder showed, would not. So that there were TWO packing cards left with the remaining back rig would indicate that the back rig Cooper used was also a bailout rig (Hayden's) and NOT a sport rig, such as either Cossey's described rig or Gryder's. The only other possibility would be if that second card was from the real front reserve. But if that one is accounted for, and there were THREE packing cards on the plane, then that eliminates Gryder's rig.

To clarify that a bit more, Georger, having the wrong ripcord will not result in a packed rig that you cannot open. It would result in not being able to get the container closed in the first place, as the ripcord pins would not match where the container pack closures are. If they were close enough to get it closed, then pulling it would get it open.

I'll repeat my standard disclaimer here. I am not a researcher, I don't read all the documents, I don't care much about diatoms, tie particles, or flight path variations. I have my own reasons for being interested in this case. Occasionally I'll throw in a few cents about parachutes or the logistics of parachuting because that's what I know. The things I say, I don't claim they actually happened, I'm just giving possibilities. If that helps someone define their theories, great, otherwise people are free to ignore me. As to your specific issues here... First, what's chaff? But, who knows who or how fast the FBI has access to. But it wouldn't really take a rigger long to do something with the chutes. He wouldn't have to completely unpack and repack the chutes. All he would have to do is open the container, add a pinger or cut some lines or whatever they wanted him to do, then re-close the container. I don't know how big the pingers would be, but if they're small enough you might be able to just shove one in through the corner of the container, where the flaps are separated. It would fall out on opening, but it would confirm the exit point and be reasonably close to where Cooper would land. I'll turn that challenge back on you. Find a civilian drop zone or skydiving community anywhere at any time in parachuting history that had only one rigger among them. Hard to say who all was among their community, but off the top of my head I can think of at least two other riggers that were active jumpers in that area at that time.