mcordell

Bolt on rings were not an option because the same rings were used for harness articulation. What they could have done is either shut their doors and done nothing or just said sorry for your bad luck and kept on with new orders. They also could have just said it was one ring and everyone else is fine and let people jump gear they weren't 100% sure about. What they did was incur the expense of paying for shipping and rebuilding entirely new rigs at no cost. That takes time. No other company has ever gone to such great lengths.

Just for anyone else's sake. You are welcome to reach out to me in the future for Parachute Systems gear.

[email protected]

all of my customers have theirs back except one that specified a custom fabric that has to be special ordered in. That will definitely delay the container but that's understandable too. They are running just a week or two behind current estimates, however they may be caught back up soon to the estimated date.

Btw, I asked cirrus about those. This is what I was told

Quote

We made the 1083 originally for Airborne Systems. It is not part of the 3 Ring system. It is used as a detachable / seperable ring.

So I wouldn't use them

I was put in contact with someone that had a pair they were willing to sell

I have received several of mine and my customers back and another is shipping in a few days or so. The ones with changes that require invoicing will take a little bit longer. Otherwise they are pretty much on schedule

Well that was fast. Got some ordered! Thanks!

Looking for 2 separable rings. Anyone have a couple they are willing to part with?

Message from Chris Dales, CEO of Parachute Systems:

Fellow Skydivers, Customers and Friends!

We are six weeks into the process of the recall. Thank you to all for the support, co-operation and assistance in getting your forms, rigs and information to us.

We, at Parachute Systems, have worked hard in this short time to get organized and place additional staff, machines, materials and plans in place to service this recall and replacement.

We will be able to release your place in the line and an estimate of timing for delivery by March 1st, 2016.

Blue skies and thanks

Chris Dales
Feb 22nd, 2016

MonsterMo

'Off the record' then, are there any ETAs on replacement containers? I think in the region of 'up to 20 weeks' was being speculated by one of the dealers over here...

Ash

They could be right and they could be wrong. See here's the reason those numbers are pure speculation. Without sharing more than I am allowed to, what I can say is the production time is going to take a certain minimum amount of time. That minimum amount of time is simply production. During any production week the factory can output a set number of containers. Of course the first in that stream of containers going out is going to be set back by the number of weeks it takes to produce the containers and then that stream of containers remains constant with X number of containers each week being put out from the factory until they are all remade.

Nobody can tell you when container z will be produced because it depends on too many factors. Some of that depends on when the recall notice was received by the factory, when the original container was received by the factory, and based on those factors, where the container falls in line. Even knowing where a container falls in line doesn't necessarily give you an idea. Lets say for example, your container is rig 100 in line for production. Lets assume, as an example (not based on real numbers) that being 100 in line means your will be put out in the 9th week of production. There are going to be other factors that affect your place in line. If 20 of the containers ahead of yours have requested changes, those containers may be delayed as the changes have to be invoiced and paid for before production can begin on them. That could hypothetically move you up to #80 in line and move you to week 8 of production. Likewise, if a sponsored team has to have all their rigs replaced, perhaps those 8 people are prioritized in order to make training and competition schedules. That could push you back a week.

All of that being a hypothetical situation of course, you can see that any speculation on when the rigs will be produced is simply that. Speculation. The replacement rigs are not going into the standard production line and the manufacturing time on them is not the same. There is no precedent for a dealer who is not directly involved in the process to base that estimate on. They could be spot on by chance or they could be way off. To simply state a number (like 20 weeks) is to assume that the first and last rigs off the line are all being produced at exactly the same time and leaving the factory on the same week. That's not even possible.

I really wish I could give you a better idea of production time. I am getting that question every day and I have no specific answer. I know some of my customers are currently in production and some are still in the cue. I can promise that neither I, nor anyone at Parachute Systems is trying to keep anyone in the dark. When you start speculating on timelines all you are doing is setting up possibly false expectations and none of us want to do that.

pchapman

***but lead time on new orders has nothing at all to do with the lead time on the remade rigs. They are not on the same lines and they have nothing to do with one another's manufacturing time.

That's good of course.
But how the heck do they do it?
It's hard for companies to suddenly increase production rate.

If it is correct that all rigs in the past 4 years of production (at a minimum) are grounded, and they plan to fix things by the end of 2016 for example, then they have 5 years worth of rigs to build or rebuild this year. Minus some percentage for rigs that are out of service or owners totally off the grid. Increasing production rates by hundreds of percent isn't easy.

One can hire new people with industry & sewing experience, skip non-essential projects, and work weekends. Or is there some extra capacity related to setting up US based production (while keeping the SA production open?).

Are the remade rigs truly on a separate production line, in a physical sense, and not just in the sense of a virtual queue for what has priority?

I obviously don't know what goes on at Parachute Systems, and they don't have to tell me, but it would be quite the business case study to see how they satisfy the recall without impacting current production in any way.

Well I can't really get into the specifics of the internal workings but there are new production lines in the physical sense. New equipment and increased manpower specifically dedicated to the remade rigs. Some of the remade rigs will be rolling out of the factory soon. I know how many total rigs are affected and how many they add to the production cue each week and while that information is not currently something I'm allowed to discuss publicly I can tell you the production time on them Is not quite the doom and gloom scenario some people think it will be. They have really gotten on top of things and the owner has even flown back to Durban from his home in SC. I've been impressed with their effort and I'm very optimistic that this will all work quite smoothly. I'll be at the PIA meeting in Scottsdale on behalf of the company here next week to discuss the recall as well.

Kiwiskydiving

I emailed PS a few days ago regarding the vortex order I put in by late December last year. It turned out that PS reopened their factory on January 15th, and lead times for new containers have lengthened from the previous 10-12 weeks to 12-14 weeks. I was expecting my rig in March but they said it is to be delivered by the end of April.. so I think you should also expect a lead time of 4 months from now. Sad news but guess we'll just have to live with it.

Please don't spread misinformation. It is true the factory closes for an extended time for the holidays which is apparently a south Africa thing, but lead time on new orders has nothing at all to do with the lead time on the remade rigs. They are not on the same lines and they have nothing to do with one another's manufacturing time. There are a lot of requests going into the factory and I am in communication with them pretty regularly. I can't quote times on the replacements, however I can tell you they are cranking out work very quickly.

pchapman

I had totally forgotten about those rings, thanks. Price check useful too even if not necessarily current. (And I'll also credit Andrew Hilton who posted about them a few years ago.)

The Cirrus rings can be found on this page:
http://www.cirrushardware.co.uk/vrings_orings_drings.htm

These would only work for your vortex however if the harness is not articulated as there is no way to replace those rings without picking the stitching on the harness.

Morg

Has anyone received their shipping authorisation yet? Im still waiting for mine, would be nice to know if everyone else is still waiting!

They are being sent out at this time. You should receive yours soon

sundevil777

******I am guilty of not appreciating that so many also have hip rings, as I don't have them. I'm not such a fan of the cost/benefit of hip rings except for the advantage they give for replacement of leg straps.

What is the cost of having them, other than the monetary cost when ordering a new rig?

The only cost is the upfront cost, unless they are a part of some service bulletin . I just haven't been convinced of their supposed benefits.

Full harness articulation is a standard and included feature in Vortex rigs and as such there are a lot of articulated Vortexes out there.

sundevil777

I think the good folks at Vortex should have specifically allowed for the use of the separable links as was done so long ago.

Perhaps master riggers in the US and equivalents in other countries are able to do this on their own?

any modification to the system just requires manufacturer approval and a proper rating. An alternate means of compliance could be to take your rig to a local master rigger and have them completely replace the harness, rings and all. All it takes is approval from the manufacturer. I don't know if they would approve it or not and I believe one thing they want by rebuilding the systems for every customer is to physically receive back the old rig to ensure they are out of the field. This keeps people from ignoring the service bulletin and continuing to jump something that is possibly unsafe. By physically receiving them back they know they are no longer in circulation. That's speculation on my part as I have only discussed the process for the recall with the owners and not alternative options or possibilities.

voidlizard

Quote

Each harness container must have its reserve, main, and AAD removed. All accessories should be removed and retained
EXCEPTthe following SHOULD BE RETURNED
with the harness container: RSL (if there is one),
Risers IF there is an RSL, Reserve freebag, Reserve Rip Cord
and CutAway Handle

Do I understand correctly that skyhook should not be removed?

What the hardware will be supplied with the new containers? DSF hardware again?

Daesung forge has been great at accepting responsibility and incurring expenses in the remedy of this situation. New, different hardware has been ordered and will be included with the new containers however I have been asked to not post brands and for good reason that I have discussed with the owners. The hardware will be stamped and it will be apparent what brand is used and I'm happy to answer that question privately but would not want to do anything to drag daesung forge through the mud when they are clearly as concerned for the safety of the jumpers as Parachute Systems is. I will pm you to talk about it and will gladly discuss it with anyone concerned about the hardware on the new rigs but understand that the hardware will be fully tested and from a reputable manufacturer.

photognat

***The replacement process is not a disassembly and rebuild of your existing container system. This is a completely new container being built and shipped at no charge to the consumer. As such, this is an opportunity for you to change your color scheme at no additional charge if you would like, however please note that changes to the container sizing will carry a fee of $150 as this will also require additional components to be manufactured that are not subject to the recall (i.e. deployment bag/pc assembly). You can also add rsl, skyhook, and custom embroidery for a fee.

Hey Mike, question: Is the $150 fee for changing the canopy sizes or the harness size? Just asking because if nothing else this is a decent chance for people who bought their Vortexes used and could use a small harness size change, which shouldn't cost PS anything extra as long as the canopy sizes are the same.

This charge is for cobrained size changes only. Harness adjustment is free. The reason for the additional charge is because a change in container size requires manufacturing a new components for the different sized container. Components from a 170 rig such as free bag and d-bag are not compatible with a 150 container.

mathrick

This is very impressive level of customer service, but wouldn't manufacturing detachable rings like UPT did with RW-6 be a cheaper and ultimately less painful option for everyone involved?

This was an option that was considered however those rings were somewhat unattractive, these rigs have up to 6 of the same rings, and the by the time the new rings were manufactured, tested, and approved they could have rebuilt the rigs with the proper rings which is what is in the best interest of the customer.

pchapman

So... I guess DSF hardware isn't going to appear on future Vortex rigs?

While everyone is stepping up and taking a huge hit, it is particularly unfortunate for DSF, and this all makes it sound like they have no clue how this happened.

While some problems are very difficult to trace, and one can't have records and data on everything, the situation would be so much easier if they would point to some goof up, some error or omission in a particular month.

It hasn't been explained whether any other bad parts have been found, whether they had some items from different production runs that could be pull tested (for material deficiency) or x-rayed (for cracks) or whatever. Nor what the problem was on the one part we know broke.

As it is, they have basically condemned years worth of production back to at least 2011 (from my experience, but not specified by the companies involved).

Wonder what DSF is doing about all the military hardware they make for, presumably, the South Korean military.

Tough situation.

DSF is in agreement with the decision to recall the rings. They could not determine with 100% certainty what caused it and narrow it to a particular batch. Everyone agrees it was likely a flaw in a singular ring, however without extensive testing of every ring on the market it would be impossible to say for certain this could not happen again and so in the interest of safety they are recalling them. I do not know which rings they manufacture for their military contracts or how this affects that aspect of their company.

samlee

It's a pretty crappy situation for all but that's quite exception customer service, kudos!!

Now THAT is the answer the other guy needed in the thread about customer service. It would have been much cheaper to take apart the rigs and do just the harness work but they are not pursuing that option because it's not what is best for the customer.

Quote

Parachute Systems has today posted the update to its Service Bulletin 2016-01 which was posted on January 4th, 2016, and resulted in the grounding of its Vortex harness containers which were manufactured with stainless steel hardware stamped “DSF”. (These are the ONLY Vortex harness containers that are involved)

After a week of investigation, research, meetings and consideration, it has been decided that rather than risk even one possible failure on a ring in use, to recall and replace all the Vortex harness containers that are affected. This means that all Vortex containers in use with "DSF" stamped stainless steel hardware are PERMANENTLY GROUNDED.

This has not been an easy decision to make especially given that there is no clear indication, in the absence of a quick and efficient means to test all the rings in use, whether this is an isolated incident. All the stainless steel rings were passed in terms of the AQL 0.65 Special Inspection Levels S-4 prior to delivery to us. The expert opinions in this field have stated this could be an isolated possibility, however neither Parachute Systems nor Daesung Forge, the stainless steel ring manufacturers (represented by their Managing Director, Mr Seong Uk Kwon), are willing to allow any potential risk to the safety of any skydivers with this hardware.

This decision, which we believe is historic and a first in the skydiving industry, reiterates our commitment to our customers that our Company has taken the ‘highest of the high roads’ when it comes to the their safety. Our mission statement to provide ‘safe, high quality and competitively priced’ products means what it says, even in the face of difficult, expensive and hard choices.

All means to produce the replacement harness containers are immediately being put into place, including increased production lines, additional staff, and the set up of administrative procedures to facilitate the return of each item that is to be replaced. We assure our customers that turn around times and replacements will be done in as fast a manner possible while maintaining a very high standard of quality.

Daesung Forge, the hardware manufacturers, have stood behind their part of the replacement procedure and acted with the highest integrity and honor in this collaboration to replace these harness containers that are affected and we are very grateful to them for their major part in assuming responsibility for the replacement of these affected products and the shipping to and from the factory to replace these harness containers.

While there will, undoubtedly, be customers who are frustrated and upset by the grounding of their gear and the wait to receive their replacements, we believe, unequivocally, that we would rather have all of our customers safe with a new product that does not have any possibility of failure on its hardware than risk keeping everyone happy with a less safe, more popular decision and the continued use of the products as they now are.

No Vortex harness containers with the stainless steel hardware stamped “DSF” are excluded from this decision to permanently ground them and they all need to be returned in order to receive the replacement which will give customers the new updated ‘skyhook ready’ design and magnetic riser covers, which are now standard. Claims for replacements must be received by December 31st, 2016 and follow the procedures outlined on the Service Bulletin. Any size changes or extras are set out on the replacement form and will attract the additional charges as laid out. Any color changes, provided they are the standard available colors (camo is not considered the standard range) will not attract an additional charge.

We apologize again to our customers for the inconvenience and we understand that it has been frustrating waiting for us to determine the facts and consider the options. We are very sure, however, that we have, in collaboration with the hardware manufacturers, made the best decision and are doing the ‘right’ thing and that in so doing we are able to show our customers what ‘our best attention at all times’ means and will mean in the future.

The updated service bulletin is available on our website (http://tinyurl.com/hnak23q) and under downloads you will find the ‘Vortex Replacement Program’ claim form (http://tinyurl.com/z434ffa). All queries in regards to this recall should be addressed to [email protected].

We thank you all for your patience and hope that as we value your safety and are committed to serving you as our customers, you will continue to support us and our products through this process and in the future.

We assure you of our best attention at all times and Blue Skies!

Parachute Systems Team

The replacement process is not a disassembly and rebuild of your existing container system. This is a completely new container being built and shipped at no charge to the consumer. As such, this is an opportunity for you to change your color scheme at no additional charge if you would like, however please note that changes to the container sizing will carry a fee of $150 as this will also require additional components to be manufactured that are not subject to the recall (i.e. deployment bag/pc assembly). You can also add rsl, skyhook, and custom embroidery for a fee.

Shipping will be done per the service bulletin instructions. I am willing to assist any Parachute Systems customer in making this process as smooth as possible, even if you did not originally purchase your container system from Flint Hills Rigging. If you need assistance, you can contact me via email at [email protected], on facebook at Facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging, or via PM.

UPDATE:

All affected Vortex rigs which were subject to this service bulletin will be replaced with brand new harness/container systems at no cost. The manufacturer of the rings was unable to guarantee this was an isolated incident and as such, the most viable option to address the safety concern is for the company to replace the harness/container assemblies.

Additional production lines have been added at the factory to handle these replacements in a timely manner and production time for orders currently in production as well as future orders will not be impacted. All current and future orders are built with alternate hardware and are not subject to this recall. Please see the attached updated service bulletin as well as the form necessary to have the harness/container replaced.

woppyvac

I've been reading this topic with interest. Any update as to what the initial issue is that is being investigated? Looks like most of what has been written is speculation. Regardless, talk about a blow to PS... :/

I have an update and will post it once it is made public and I am allowed to release it. Should be here in a very short time.