snowmman

Ralph feels ripped off? What an asshole. He got paid by taxes to be a government employee. I don't know if there's a pension or what. He feels ripped off because "he's giving them nuggets?" He ain't giving shit. He's got nothing to give. He's a loser. I feel ripped off by the USG employing guys like Himmelsbach. (edit) Tell Ralph you heard rumors there's a guy on the internet named snowmman who's making money off DBC hand over fist. And he's not paying a red cent in taxes on it, and giving the FBI, the CIA, the IRS, and anyone else he can find, the middle finger while he's doing it, because he knows he's untouchable because they don't want to put him on the stand and reveal the truth. It's like printing fucking money. Ka-ching. Damn straight Himmelsbach should feel cheated. I'm going to buy his place and put up a Walmart.

Just had a thought, Bruce. Larry Carr has told us (either rightly or wrongly) that he has no idea where the flight path map came from or how it was generated. it's apparently radar locations, at 1 minute intervals. All these FBI guys, if you could quiz them on if they ever saw the same flight path map (the picture is at the fbi site..it's marked with pencil)... We've seen the 1972 flight path marked around the predicted DZ, and the flight path on it aligns with the flight path on the larger map we have now. But still, people want to say we don't know the flight path, when it seems obvious we do. Anything you can add to that, including stuff like Ralph saying he never saw the flight path map! I suspect the full flight path map must have been available in 1972 But what did they use when they said they flew the flight path with planes abreast for a search? Did they just follow the airways or ??? (edit) How could the pilots have given any coordinates back then? I don't understand the off by 25 miles thing. The news accounts from then do have this idea of the ground search location shifting. I wonder if that's all related. They were apparently over by Woodland at first, right? at least news reports made it sound that way. Woodland is just off I-5 at the Lewis River. The columbia river is right there too. (edit) "radar reports" are mentioned by SA Manning as early as 11/29/71 here http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=OCYfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=s1gEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1835,7502435&dq=hijacking+woodland&hl=en

Excellent work as usual Bruce. I hope you're enjoying it, because you're doing real work for free, and as a reader I enjoy getting details that I've been curious about and especially the stuff that it is brand new and out of left field. Random things do occur! You said "when I told him that Ralph won't talk to me because I can't pay his price, although I think the bigger reason is that I ask too many questions ..." I never knew Ralph gets paid, still, for commentary on this case. Is that true? Ralph gets paid whenever he talks to anyone? That would be amazing if true. Did someone actually quote you a price? I thought Sluggo talked to him for a little bit (and the conversation was pretty lame, if I remember Sluggo's account). (edit) oh, and Bruce, do you know anything about what Jerry Thomas was saying? Did Jerry just not understand something, or was making a joke, or ??? I can't see any way that Jerry or H. had conversations with Pete in 1995. (edit) I think Pete was in China or Japan then? Is Jerry making something up? If so, why? Or is there something there? (edit) I wonder what the total amount is that's been paid to Himmelsach over the years on this thing. Is it just a little or ??

Hey Jerk! Once again you are factually wrong. Now dont throw a tit! Go suck your Jack Daniels. I'm wrong a lot. What was wrong about what I said above? Are you talking about supposed military use of flares or sport jumping use of flares or ??? If you know something relative to the question I posed, just say it? Then people will confirm it if they have info too. Why dump on me without giving the relevant info? What purpose does that serve? I don't see sport jumpers throwing flares at 10,000'. I've seen pictures of N-ways holding flares at night from the '60s. (I'm assuming everyone has seen those) I suspect nowadays carrying flames at night isn't SOP? ??

I second 377 on wanting to hear about 60's era night jumps. I don't think anyone has posted on that on this thread before. Galen Cook has spewed bullshit about flares, but I thought flares were only used to illuminate N-ways, either for docking location or photographs. Anyone have some personal experience with 60's era night N-ways? I don't know the exact experience Sheridan has, but might be interesting, especially in the context of this flare debate. I'd also like to hear about early flour bag stuff.

skyjack71 (Jo Weber) said in bold "Snowmman has stepped way too far and he has become a real Jerk" On this my 4465th post, I must say that now you have gone too far. I could put up with all the previous insults, but implying that I was not a jerk before, and am only a real one now....well that's the kind of internet bullying that Sluggo warned us about. I think I have always been a good jerk. Why defame me? I have to go sulk and plan a retort.

Jerry: I didn't know you knew Sheridan. When/where did you talk to him in 1995? Have you jumped with Sheridan? In an article I thought he said he did some jumps up in WA after returning to US. How do you know Sheridan? On an authorship level, Jerry: I wouldn't knock anyone who takes the time to try to capture his trip thru life in an interesting way on paper. It's easy to knock someone else's writing, until you've tried to do better. Writing is hard. Reading is easy. (edit) I've never read (heard) Pete discussing Cooper outside the visit he got from the FBI. Jerry: are you saying Pete discussed Cooper in 1995? I always wondered whether he wrote the book possibly incorporating Cooper themes intentionally, or not. (the book has many themes, from my reader's view). Can you explain more? (edit) I'm totally confused. How would Sheridan know Ralph? I thought the FBI were trying to contact Sheridan in 1971 and couldn't find him, and then someone in Seattle decided to contact him in 2002-2003. Was there intervening contact? (edit) Hey Jerry: I just realized you've never posted your USPA license. Are you D? what number? Just curious.

Maybe georger is implying that this thread used to be deeply serious, and only recently we've become clownlike? I never noticed a transition. Seems the same as its always been. I'm picturing the Joker 'why so serious?' 'Let's put a smile on that face' and... "Now, our organization is small, but we've got a lot of potential for aggressive expansion... so which of you fine gentlemen would like to join our team?" Maybe georger is talking about himself, not us?

I would only add that as far as I can tell, that really was Sheridan. I've read a lot of his writing, and the posts were dead on, if someone was going to try to imitate Sheridan. But I don't think any of you have read his stuff as much as me, and it would be hard to pull off matching the sentence choices and structure. And it wasn't me. I was pretty surprised Sheridan showed up. I suspect Bruce told him about DZ.com. But Sheridan is right about one thing. Even though he has an interesting life and we're curious, we should pull in our horns and stop probing about his family. Hope he comes back. He's an old guy with a lot of opinions, but he was there in Issaquah, (I guess probably around when it opened) there in Vietnam, there in WWII, there in smokejumping. Be great to get some firsthand flesh on stuff we've only read about. (edit) Oh yeah: Evidently (I don't have all the details) Pete wrote an article for Smokejumpers' magazine, detailing his visit from the FBI and explaining why he thought Cooper failed. It would be great if Pete could go thru his thoughts on why Cooper failed, here, also, since Smokejumpers is a print magazine, and they don't put all their articles on the web. Maybe Pete will figure out how to "upload attachment" to a post, and he can attach the actual article to a post. (edit) As far as I can tell, the FBI "probe" didn't go further than asking Pete about himself. Curiously they seemed to have totally missed the opportunity to ask Pete for information, since he was there in a lot of places you would think people would say are interesting.

It's pretty funny what an idiot georger is. Hey georger, you're an idiot! On the one hand georger posts "Everything you say could be true or not true, or partially or in some part true or not true. I dont know. I dont have any hard evidence to know anything about Mr. Petey. What I do know is: Good luck with your quest. I have minimal or no interest in it, period. Good luck, Georger " But then when Petey shows up, Georger has to stick his two cents in. So are you a liar when you post, Georger, or an idiot? (edit) Don't you love it when people spell out punctuation marks..like "period"...like that somehow adds value or strength to the sentence. Question Mark? (edit) Mr. Emo gives me a hard time because I joke that Tosaw was murdered. An 84-year old jumper comes on and says he has cancer, and what's the first thing that comes to Mr Emo's mind in response?

I just glanced at this, but Robin Moore wrote "The Green Berets" which led to "The Ballad of the Green Berets" which was kind of all image making stuff... Khaki Mafia was another novel of Robin's. If we're talking reality, why would anyone pick Robin Moore's Khaki Mafia? (edit) He also wrote "The French Connection" (edit) oh wait a second...is it supposed to be based on this real life thing? from wikipedia here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_O._Wooldridge In 1969, while Command Sergeant Major of the Military Assistance Command, Vietnam, Wooldridge was accused in a congressional inquiry of fraud and corruption related to the military club system. This resulted in Wooldridge being tried in the court of public opinion. In 1973 the Department of Justice and Wooldridge reached an agreement whereby Wooldridge pleaded guilty to accepting stock equity from a corporation engaged in providing merchandise to the non commissioned officers' clubs in Vietnam. The government did not find any wrongdoing on his part while serving as the Sergeant Major of the Army. "Although the investigation tarnished the final years of Wooldridge's career, it could not diminish his heroic wartime exploits or his arduous labours on behalf of enlisted soldiers and non-commissioned officers as the first Sergeant Major of the Army." (edit) I see someone on amazon reviewed it well: As always Robin Moore and his co-authors bring out a good military story. I knew the real events behind this and Moore brought them all to life. Worth reading if you want a look into military life in the late 60's and early 70's

Pete said "I'm both Grecco (Bertalini) and Grant." oh yeah, I forget when I realized that. Maybe it wasn't until the very end. I had to go back and re-read sections, to make sure whether you were talking about Grecco or Grant at the time. I actually liked the last three sentences in the book. What's weird is I think you had on the first pages "The Refugee Advisor, Part One"...which left me wondering at the end: where is Part Two? :) Not to belittle the serious sections, but tell me: did you really work on the Bubbleator? I have a side bet on this.

Thanks Sheridan. I know Bruce said he thought at times you weren't a coherent writer, but I've found you to be a very coherent writer. I am interested in the political stuff, but it might be a little heavy for the other posters in the thread (at first). I think everyone would enjoy a trip thru your skydiving career, just to get us more info about what it was like in the '60s. I know the outline, but anecdotes from someone who was there make it more cool. Think about it and come back tomorrow. There's plenty of space here, plenty of readers. No rush. We amuse ourselves here. We talk about most anything. Sure we talk about the details of DBC, but we've almost talked that out. So you here, can give us a bunch of new stuff to talk about. Starting with the skydiving stuff might help draw out some people who were there back in the day with you...who knows. I don't think a smokejumper has ever posted here. Not many transitioned to skydiving? In any case, think it over. A good place to pass the time here... Sorry to hear about the cancer. AND: we need to patch you up with your brother sometime! heck no reason to go to the grave with any regrets :) But who knows, I've not talked to my bro in a while..who am I to talk.

Hi georger. I run this thread, the CSG and the world. I am God. the Pope. The Messiah. Bow down before me. I have met the Buddha, and eaten him. Alec Baldwin channeled me here: "I have an M.D. from Harvard, I am board certified in cardio-thoracic medicine and trauma surgery, I have been awarded citations from seven different medical boards in New England, and I am never, ever sick at sea. So I ask you; when someone goes into that chapel and they fall on their knees and they pray to God that their wife doesn't miscarry or that their daughter doesn't bleed to death or that their mother doesn't suffer acute neural trauma from postoperative shock, who do you think they're praying to? Now, go ahead and read your Bible, "Dennis", and you go to your church, and, with any luck, you might win the annual raffle, but if you're looking for God, he was in operating room number two on November 17, and he doesn't like to be second guessed. You ask me if I have a God complex. Let me tell you something: I am God."

Amazon! I swear after I posted my quickie introduction to the usual gang of posters, I realized I left you out, but I get some slack..cause you've not been here in a bit (i.e. you have half a brain and rightly disappear when there's nothing to chat about) :) Let's see, there's no good way to summarize Amazon, I think. She goes way back (as you can see), ex-military, but seems to have survived with an open mind, still jumps a storm, kicks ass whenever needed. Turns all preconceived notions of what women can do inside-out, and has been doing that for years.... And: thinks the jump would be no-problemo for DBC, and wants to throw me out of a duct-taped bucket of bolts with a handshake and a thumbs up, to prove it. (edit) There's a guy who jumped with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club who I think jumped with Sheridan when Sheridan was a C license..And I thought now D-license needs 500 jumps? was it less way back? In any case, hopefully Sheridan gives us more on whatever he feels like. I know he's got lots of good stories.

Thanks for the response Sheridan (I don't know if you prefer Sheridan or Pete?) we usually just use the assumed names...your "eagleeyeWindsor" is kind of long..but I'll use whatever you sign. If you didn't get the $25 from lulu, heck I'll paypal you the $25 if you got stiffed! I actually thought I might be the only person in the world who bought it. I actually posted that thought here. Yeah, I can imagine its all a rush. This thread can be fun, or really really a pain in the ass to post to. Give it some thought and come on back. You can send private messages to people too, if you don't want to discuss stuff publicly. I think you'll like chatting with 377. He's one of the older-timers who posts here, and he's fascinated with history. Orange1 is younger but she's fascinated with world history, and well read. (edit) I realized they double printed pages in your book. I chopped out the extra pages in my copy, so it was no problem. (edit) I will note, that if you post here, you have the bragging rights of being the only skydiver that I know of, that has been investigated by the FBI with respect to DBC, and had DNA taken. A lot of people want to think they're cool because the FBI talked to them, but they're like kids from 1970, which doesn't make any sense.

Sheridan I saw you updated your jump profile. Is that D license number accurate? I didn't realize you were a relatively early D license. I thought maybe you had been PCA-only. (edit) There was someone who posted here recently, giving us crap like he was an oldtimer. He was D 5476! You got that beat, if the D-2024 is right. (edit) Oh: when you say "14 years".....I think most people here don't count years as "active jumping years"...14 makes it sound like you started 14 years ago, given the typical way people use that field? I think? Maybe someone else can comment. How do non-active jumpers fill in their "years in the sport" ??? Do you just subtract start year from current year? (edit) There are some people from your era at the site, but they don't post to this thread. Jerry Baumchen D-1543 for instance. There could be some old friends (or non-friends! :) from back in the day, here.

On your book, Sheridan. I purchased a copy from Lulu.com last year for $25 (the pdf). I read it and asked 377 to read it. I didn't post the pdf anywhere publicly accessible. I try my best to respect privacy, but curiosity sometimes makes me behave badly. I do have a lot of questions about your book, but I'll let you decide if you want to discuss that here. I'm mostly excited that someone I thought about a lot is actually here. Again, welcome.

Sheridan You and I have a common enemy in larry carr. (lower case, intentional. :) ) He is everything you can imagine in terms of being a dolt, too confident in the FBI and it's place in the USA. I have not posted my name here, because privacy is so hard to maintain. You won't believe me anyhow. I have no govt connection. I work with computers for a living. I read a lot. I just turned 50 last year. I have never skydived. There are a number of younger and older jumpers on this thread though. There is one military grunt from Vietnam days: Jerry Thomas. 377 is a lawyer but very fair minded. Jo Weber is here, and she is a little bit crazy (I'm sure you've read about her Duane Weber vendetta). I think there's a consensus here to ignore her, so don't get all riled up by any of her posts. Georger is a smart guy, but can be inflammatory, so don't get too worked up if he responds. Orange1 is a woman, cool, calm and collected. Very smart. Larry Carr used to post here as "ckret" but left around Nov. 2008. There are some others.

Sheridan, This is a sport skydiving web site, as you can tell. A lot of these guys talk like skydiving started in 1970. Sometimes it seems like none of them know anything about what was going on in the early '60s. You said that you experimented with "bat wings" then. What did you do? What happened? where? This is skydiving history/trivia....so stuff like that is cool to talk about also. But heck, you've been around longer than all of us. Anything you've got to say is more interesting than more spew from 20 year olds.

Sheridan, I'm assuming you actually posted the above, and if you did, I welcome you to the forum. I have read as much of your writing as I can find. I led this thread thru a painful (for me) look at vietnam. I am being honest, when I say that you caused me to have many a gutwrenching moment, realizing there was US and world history I was not aware of. You may be off the curve that some people use when they pick people to listen to. But I think you, indirectly thru me, helped get people to think about things they would not have thought about otherwise. Now after digesting everything, even though you have a very interesting history, that I for one would like to hear more about, I decided you weren't Cooper. However, 377 here, nagged that you were the best suspect, in terms of matching a theoretical model, that we ever heard of. Orange1 agreed. So we thought it would nice to have Bruce call you. We were flabbergasted when we found the FBI had investigated you and taken DNA. We have heard of such a small number of suspects, that it was an amazing coincidence. We all wished we could get you here, just to hear more. But especially, to tell us more about skydiving in the WA area in the '60s. Even if you weren't Cooper, you have a lot more relevant info then any other jerk that posts here, I think. Also, Vietnam was THE major event of that era. Cooper may have been connected to Vietnam in some random way. Other hijackers were, sometimes civilian. Hahneman for instance. Your civilian USAID experience was unique and I think not understood or well appreciated by people who think they understood Vietnam. The entire CORDS/USAID story in vietnam was not well publicized. I read a recent account, where the author claimed the programs were good and welll-intentioned, but that mixing the programs with ducking bullets was a recipe for disaster. If indeed you are Sheridan, I say "welcome". I'd like to hear your story. This thread is a weird collection of outcasts. You would be right to walk away. But there are a lot of experts. A lot of smart people, and it's a world-wide audience. Orange1, for instance, is in South Africa. Again, greetings.

Try "SCHLEMIEL" or "PUTZ". Sometimes they both apply - You're saying I offended your sensibilities somehow? How exactly? By my very existence, or something I posted? Are you another bandwidth bigot? Or just the bombastic georger of old? Explain.

I wasn't familiar with it, and it was misspelled, but there's a wikipedia entry for it. You learn a little bit of everything on the DBC thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quisling "Quisling, after Norwegian politician Vidkun Quisling, who assisted Nazi Germany to conquer his own country and ruled the collaborationist Norwegian government, is a term used to describe traitors and collaborators. It was most commonly used for fascist political parties and military and paramilitary forces in occupied Allied countries which collaborated with Axis occupiers in World War II, as well as for their members and other collaborators. The term was coined by the British newspaper The Times on 15 April 1940, entitled "Quislings everywhere." The editorial asserted: "To writers, the word Quisling is a gift from the gods. If they had been ordered to invent a new word for traitor... they could hardly have hit upon a more brilliant combination of letters. Actually it contrives to suggest something at once slippery and tortuous." The term was used by the then Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Winston Churchill during an address to both houses of Congress in the United States of America on the 26 December 1941. Commenting upon the effect of a number of Allied victories against Axis forces, and moreover the United States’ decision to enter the war, Churchill opined that; “Hope has returned to the hearts of scores of millions of men and women, and with that hope there burns the flame of anger against the brutal, corrupt invader. And still more fiercely burn the fires of hatred and contempt for the filthy Quislings whom he has suborned.” It subsequently entered the language, and became a target for political cartoonists. ... The term 'quisling' was also used by Max Brooks in his recent zombie-themed novel, World War Z, to describe human survivors of the zombie war who subsequently lost their minds, and would comport themselves in a manner that was indistinguishable from the actual undead."

Jerry: is there poison oak in that area? in 1971? Poison oak skin reaction takes multiple exposures to sensitize the skin. Jo: Did Duane ever get poison oak skin reaction? Poison ivy is more an east coast thing, but I don't think exposure to one, counts for sensitizing you to the other. Maybe there's a botanist out there who can fill in this blank. (edit) Jerry said: "Remember there was a lot of searcher's in the wood's that night. " That's new data. I didn't know there were searchers in the woods on the night of 11/24/71. That's pretty odd. Do you have more on this, Jerry? (edit) About making money off this case. I thought I've been very transparent. So far I've just made $23,000. I don't know about how much others are making hay with this. Not as much as I've bragged, but it's been difficult to get people to pay true value.

sorry for the off-topic stuff Jerry. Maybe you can get it back on track? (edit) What's the average diameter of the trees in the woods you've been looking in? I'm wondering about growth rate and how it applies to the Cooper case, and whether a fireball could ignite brush in the Washougal in 1971.