coreyangel

Really? A spam from the oil and gas industry? But ok, since safety is important to everyone, I'll bite....

Sheen, what input of value do you have that will make the sport of skydiving safer? I would also like to see your SafeDay website. Although I don't think it will have information that is directly relevant, it could very well spark an ember that could lead to an idea to improve the safety of our sport.

Again, although I think this was a spam posting, I do believe in making our sport safer and would love to hear from you.

Corey

dthames

***You make a good point, Dthames. We talk about beginners and we talk about experienced jumpers, but we really don't say much about the "average" jumper. That area is usually treated like it is just the area that new jumpers fall into while learning to be experienced jumpers i.e. free flyers, big way members). We don't emphasize much on the jumper that is content to fly solo or small groups.

You brought up a great topic.

Learning that is okay to be a slower learner and not pushing too hard is something that I feel can improve safety.

Thank you for your clarification. Based on a study done in 1972, it is estimated that our sport is 2:1 type A personalities and yes, I think that causes us to push the envelope. Would it be safe to say that we need to recognize our personal learning curve and accept the fact that we might not learn as fast as others. Additionally, experienced sky divers need to understand that others are still learning and not to encourage them to exceed their personal learning curves.

You make a good point, Dthames. We talk about beginners and we talk about experienced jumpers, but we really don't say much about the "average" jumper. That area is usually treated like it is just the area that new jumpers fall into while learning to be experienced jumpers i.e. free flyers, big way members). We don't emphasize much on the jumper that is content to fly solo or small groups.

You brought up a great topic.

Deimian

285 pounds is not a joke. I would tell him to lose some weight and come back. Reasons:

-Wingload: I am 190 out of the door. My first jump was on a navigator 260. That's ~0.8. Somebody in the 285 pounds mark will exceed the 1.0 wingload even on the largest navigator. I wouldn't do that to anybody on the first jump.

-Freefall: Unless he is 6'5 he will falling like a cannon ball. Good luck to any instructor catching up. Besides that if his performance is not that good, with his mass and volume it would be pretty difficult for the instructors to keep him stable.

-Health: This applies just if the 285 pounds are mostly fat, not muscle. But if that is the case, his heart won't be the healthiest one. Having a heart attack induced by the adrenaline might be a real possibility.

Now, if the guy is 285 pounds of muscle in a 6'10 body maybe he can try static line. That won't solve the wingload problem though.

Not to be argumentative, but there are a few flaws in your reasoning-

Wingload: There are many sky divers, students and experts alike, that weigh more than 190 out the door. There are other canopies than the Navigator for students. His size and wingloading are issues, but they can be overcome, he may have to pay more than other students for the proper equipment, but that is his choice. Give him the options and let HIM control his checkbook.

Freefall: Why does he have to freefall? Isn't static line or IAD an option? They might not be, but if they are then the argument of instructors keeping up with him in freefall is nonexistent. Now, there is another issue that I think should be addressed here and that is aircraft weight and balance. When a tandem instructor, student, and camera flyer all leave the aircraft it is more than 285 pounds. However a T/I is not climbing out on the strut and doing a poised exit. If the drop zone the student wants to go to is a cessna drop zone than the pilot should be consulted.

Health: You bring up a good point, however this is something that needs to be discussed with the student. And yes, this could be an area where the drop zone staff may have to make a judgment call for the sake of safety. You brought up a real good point here.

My bottom line is this: If the military can put out pallets of cargo on a static line, we can put out a human. The biggest issue is cost and if the student wants to pay it then let them. Just be honest and up front.

I'll be glad to be one of the peanuts (lol).

Let me ask you this (not being a smarty pants) but what are YOUR reasons for saying no? I emphasize the word "your" because your reasons could be different from someone else's. I am assuming you are the DZO/DZM so bottom line... it is your kool-aide stand and your decision. Because of that, I would just like to ask, "Why do you think you should answer no?"

I agree with you about new jumpers feeling "not good enough" and experienced jumpers feeling "too good". I did a lot of solo jumps when I was new in part because I didn't think I was good enough to jump with others. I thought I was the only one that felt that way, thank you for your input.

quote "coreyangel"]...I plan on deleting this thread prior to publication to help prevent someone being identified...

wolfriverjoe

[How do you plan on doing that?

I plan on pushing the button that says, "Delete" (see attachment). I may be wrong, but I didn't think it would be rocket science.

Thanks Gary,

I appreciate all the help you've provided me over the years. I'm honored to call you my friend and mentor.

Corey

I like your suggestion. And you are right about the multipliers, behind every accident there are many "almost accidents."

I have seen various forms of self-evaluation questionnaires over the years. If any one has any they would like to email me, may be we can find the commonality in all and create one that has reliable predictability.

My email is:
[email protected]

As the summer season starts to wind down, it is a good time to reflect on what we have seen and what might be good topics for next year's safety day.

I'm looking to write an article on this subject and I would like to hear form as many people in the sport, what have you seen this year that could possibly need training on next safety day. I will not identify any person or drop zone in my article and I plan on deleting this thread prior to publication to help prevent someone being identified. Of course, feel free to PM me if you want.

Some basic guidelines to remember:

1) I want to hear from everyone! New people, let me know what you think. I'm not a mind reader and your opinions matter too.

2) Old people, please don't attack anyone for their opinion or suggestion. We need free and open communication if we want our sport to be safer.

3) Finally, for all people: Please don't attack or use this as a forum to grind an ax. There are other forums for that. I understand that many times, safety violations are not nice and pretty, please just don't point a finger at any particular individual or drop zone.

I thank you all in advance.

DrDom

Wow, what a rough experience.
I was told before Jump 1: Ask ALL questions. There are NO stupid questions. Everyone learns at their own pace and there is a CURVE that you are somewhere on. If you have a question, it is likely something someone else also does not know.

Many other cliché things.

But nobody was ever felt to have a "stupid" question and every question was answered with kindness and understanding that just because our instructor (she had a few thousand jumps) knew it doesn't mean we should. If we know it all, why be taught?

I teach paragliding, and get some... amateur questions. I teach medical students, and get some as well. I also teach medical residents. I teach paramedics and EMTs. I taught in the military a variety of things that were technical involving land combat. I can say with 100% certainty the worst thing you can do is make a "student" feel disrespected. Then they turn off, and you can teach them nothing of use. And when I would send someone into combat, or into the sky, or off to save lives... I want to feel good about that fact that they are as ready as they can be. They start with vastly different understandings, but they should leave the door (literally and/or figuratively) with the same minimal set of information that will save their lives and/or the lives of others.

Find another instructor. For your safety and enjoyment.

Very well put and I hope all students and instructors see DrDom's comments. We, as instructors, are here to build up students; to teach them. We are not here to belittle them or to make them scared to ask questions. The reason behind asking questions is a simple one... it is because we do not know the answer. Period. We are not born with skydiving knowledge or a "skydiving gene" in our body. Many times when a student doesn't know an answer it is because the instructor forgot to teach about the subject in question.

As an instructor I am always happy when a student asks me a question. Why is that? Simple... They are coming to me for answers because they trust me and know I will give them an honest answer, even if it is "Let me find out for you."

Keep asking questions. Never stop learning.

Thank you very much! This is exactly what I was looking for!

Blue skies my friend

Actually, static line would be fine since static line is still a way to train sport jumpers.

It is understood that equipment and military tactics are definitely something not associated with sport jumping (I am also a retired Marine) i just need to contrast the two and I only need to be able to write 4 to 8 pages since this comparison is only a small part of my whole project.

My degree specializes in human factors and education. I am writing a lot on skydiving education and the section I am putting this comparison under is justifying why sport skydiving needs to go through a instructional design process and not just take a few pages out of the already established military syllabus.

I hope there is someone out there who can help me out. I am a skydiver and I held instructor ratings so I have an understanding of the First Jump Course, but I'm looking for for information on the military jump school.

I am doing my capstone project for Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University and part of it is comparing sport jump training with military jump training. My "Holy Grail" would be to get a copy of the military's first jump course syllabus. Any help would be appreciated.

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I cut Mike Mullins off one time when I had a two-out and basically was riding along with the wind. Landed on the grass runway. I had less than 100 jumps then.

With a two-out malfunction, I'm sure he understood that your emergency took priority over his quick landing.

That is a good point, John. We akways talk about the mistakes we've made and how other's have almost killed us with their stupidity, but we also need to be on the watch out for others in distress. Sometimes awhat appears to be a safety violation could actually be another jumper making an emergency landing. Would anyone like to comment on this?

Thanks for sharing Billy.

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You know damn well he was using the 45° rule, not counting before exit. I can't recall how many heated discussions I've had with others about this same topic.
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Wrong ... the jumper wasn't doing anything but succumbing to pressure from people behind yelling go and just left the aircraft too soon.

That remark was meant in jest. I should have put some sort of icon next to it. Apologies.

No problem

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You know damn well he was using the 45° rule, not counting before exit. I can't recall how many heated discussions I've had with others about this same topic.

Wrong ... the jumper wasn't doing anything but succumbing to pressure from people behind yelling go and just left the aircraft too soon.



coreyangel, that's a good question but in this case a rating made no difference. This is a dropzone I jump at only a few times a year. Our first conversation was right then after we landed.

He landed behind the beer line and was approached about it by one of the locals. I walked up and he was clearly sheepish. The local asked if anything was wrong and I said not at all and asked if I could take over from here.

Our very first conversation was as good as could be hoped for. He'd been doing a bunch of solos with out a lot of guidance. Later after jumping he handed me a beer and introduced himself formally.

Hope that helps

Hookitt, this string has shown something that I think happens more often than we as a community will admit. When something goes wrong, I feel that more often than not, people will jump to a conclusion and assume it is a fact. As we see can see in the above chain of events, someone made an error. If we would have tried to address the situation as someone using the 45 degree rule, we never would have taught this young skydiver a thing and this could have repeated itself. Would anyone like to comment on this? What do you you all think?

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You know damn well he was using the 45° rule, not counting before exit. I can't recall how many heated discussions I've had with others about this same topic.

May I ask, how do we know he was using the 45 degree rule? Did we ask? Maybe he counted fast or not long enough. You mentioned that you have had some heated discussions on this topic, would you care to share one?

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When I was young and stupid I was grounded about 5 times and disciplined otherwise on countless occassions.
Even though I had done stupid stuff the person actually grounding me was always polite but firm, there was no discussion, just them telling me that I was grounded , usually immediately in front of the whole DZ.

You said that you were grounded and there was no discussion. May I ask, did they try to teach you what went wrong or did you have to figure that part out for yourself?

Thanks Jakee, I appreciate your input. I understand that accidents will happen and some are unavoidable, but when he broke his femur, was this one of those one time errors in judgement, or could this have been prevented? If you think it could have been prevented, what do you think should have been done?

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I'm just collecting data anecdotes at this point

FIFY.

Do you have anything you would like to share with the group?

Jumper sniveled past the front of my canopy ... and I do mean RIGHT in front of my canopy no more than 12 feet away.

I introduced myself, "Hi, I'm Tim. Nice colorful parachute you have there. Soooooo, how many seconds separation did you give?" and then asked, what type of flying, etc....

After the conversation, the jumper understood exit separation (no matter how much the tandem masters in the back are yelling go), freeflying and directional control as a newbie skydiver. The best plus was the jumper understood that someone doesn't have to be a dick and yell at someone for making their first big mistake of their career that ended without consequence. It scared them enough as it was. I simply got a good very close up shot of a human falling past in terror.

Later, I was given a beer for the education and for not yelling. It was also for not punching. The guy was certain I was walking over to kick his ass.