Ckret

I have several doc's signed by Weber, his signature on the prints are different. The most likely reason for the difference is what I posted.

Wanted to make a note about the 1944 print card. I don't believe the signature on the card is Webers, he either refused to sign, which is common or they forgot to have him sign and the clerk signed it for Weber. If we book someone today and they refuse to sign admin paper you put "refused" on the line." I dont what the procedure was in 1944, there is an x placed above both of Weber's signatures, maybe thats what they did then.

Kinda like being able to attend your own funeral.

if you follow the Weber aspect of this see attached, if you could care less don't bother. I sent away for a copy of his master prints.

It's not insisting, its me telling you what the crew said, I have no idea if they are right or worng, I can only tell you what they said and nothing in the investigation points to them lying about Cooper wanting the airstairs down for takeoff. They were all interviewed the night they got off the plane so I highly doubt their memory would have lapsed on such an issue

I did good research on boom operators on refuel tankers that I was surprised no one jumped on. You can search back to find what I posted. I couldn't understand why no one responded. So I'm not going to research anything about load masters. It is my understanding boom operators are enclosed in the tail of the refueling tanker, I don't know how it would equate to a load master. "So I'm not going to research anything about load masters. Really????

Let's just say that a parachute dedicated to emergency use (a pilot rig) might be considered more reliable than a sport main. The emergency rig has to be packed by a licensed FAA rigger, while a sport main may be packed by the person making the jump. If Cooper had experience walking around the back of a plane dropping objects, he would have been wearing a pilot emergency rig, not a sport rig. The sport rig would have modifications unfamiliar to a load master. It makes sense to stick with something familiar. Sounds like you have background in this, thanks for jumping in. Can anyone confirm that load masters wear PER's when working. Of coures you have go back to the 50's, what did they wear in the 50's? Snowmman? the search king, can you get this. This goes to the theory then that Cooper chose the best chute base on Cooper's experience, but not the best gear available. This then proves, or adds another piece to the puzzle, that Cooper was not an experienced skydiver.

I am glad you brought up flaps at 30, I found another log that references 30. If someone is up for scanning the docs I'll fax it to you. The time line if I recall is aft light on at 7:42, wheels up was 7:36

Lets break it down this way, would we all agree that Cooper relayed to the crew he had advance knowledge of the flight operations of the 727. The crew answered this for us because they stated they believed from his demands and interactions he did. Since this is true, Cooper gave away a piece of his anonymity. If Cooper already blew the plan to keep his flight knowledge a secret, why would he decide to become evasive on a critical element such as the flight path. especially when he would know the only one that would be blind would be him. Everyone on the ground would know where the plane was but Cooper. And he would have known that he was blinding himself when there would have been no need to do this. I can't think of one logical explanation for this. It would be logical to do if Cooper had played dumb from the start and carried it through to the end but he didn't. It would be logical if this gave Cooper some type of advantage but it didn't, it actually only harmed him. We know that doing it to throw the investigation away from the airline industry didn't work because we chased leads after many a pilot based on Coopers words. And we know he didn't do it to hid his DZ because the plane could be tracked from the ground and air. The only thing left is he didn't ask for a flight path because he didn't care; get money, get chutes, put chute on, strap money on, stairs open at takeoff, jump while I can still see the ground, land and walk away to a new life.

Everything on the surfaces directs one to the conclusion you have made, Cooper planned to jump not long out of Seatac. -The Stews reported he had the chute on and attaching the money to his waist prior to or just after takeoff. -Wanted the stairs down for takeoff. -Cooper began his attempt to get the stairs down just minutes after takeoff. -No directions to crew where to fly so he can coordinate a DZ. Things went south because he had trouble getting the stairs down, his plan starts to come apart. Thinking on ones feet in this situation takes a moment and generally does not produce the best results. 1) he was focused on getting out asap and did not consider asking the plane to return, he had tunnel vision. 2) From Cooper's action we know he had never jumped from the airstairs. There is a learning curve. He just didn't figure the stairs dropped with body weight, then run off the back of the aircraft. 3) At the point he jumped Cooper was focused on getting out, where didn't matter, he (according to the crew and weather reports) couldn't see the ground so he wouldn't have known where he was anyway. At least with any accuracy for picking out a specific DZ. He jumped at his first opportunity

All DZ in the United States were investigated.

Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We have to get Ckret to jump. I see it as essential job related training. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes indeedie. There's Kapow and Snohomish nearby Seattle, since he seems reticent to coming down here to CA. ltdiver I looked into it but got as far as the web site and thought better. I have grown cautious as the years go by.

And.... McCoy got caught.... in what?... Three days? Sluggo_Monster McCoys interaction with the flight crew is not what led to his arrest.

Karma to you Sluggo, thats a large amount of work. Once your re-energized I look forward to our hour together so you can walk me through it the way you see it. Until then enjoy your grandson.

1) I would imagine they looked in trees, it would make sense but i don't know what the search instructions were. 2) It is my understanding from going through the file(may be wrong haven't checked) that the prints are not of AFIS quality. I have not found anyhting in the file that shows they were run through the system.

I go to bed early and the forum explodes, great discussion. I am racing out the door, don't know if I have any time today for Cooper. Two things: Don't think I am not being opened minded, we have little to no evidence in this case so we are creating facts based on reconstruction. Very tricky stuff in my world so it takes time and thought. On that path, a question based on what I quickly read through. V 23 seems to me an "all or nothing" situation, either Cooper plays dumb in every aspect or he gives himself away. Cooper configures the aircraft for the type of flight performance he wants. Relays to the crew he has knowledge of the aircraft (Tina stated Cooper seemed to know about the operations of the 727). Spots landmarks from the air and lets tina know (granted, not the end all be all but if you trying to hide your knowledge why say anything, there was no need). So basically Cooper runs his mouth enough that the crew felt he had flight experience and the FBI did as well. But then when it came to something so important for the success of his crime, the flight path, he then becomes evasive to throw off investigators? It has not added up yet, but I am waiting. Sluggo, as much as you would like to separate number crunching from knuckle dragging it can't be done in this case. Whatever your numbers tell us, in the end they have to overlay a human being. If the two don't mesh we have to find out why

Aggie, 377 Thanks for the response.

If by setting the parameters so there was no choice but V 23, why not just say, "fly V23" The planes path could be tracked in every way regardless of Coopers demands. So why not just say V 23? Cooper gained nothing by being evasive, he only set himself up for failure. By not declaring a flight path Cooper was the only one blind. Why, for those forwarding this idea, are you not answering this question? Why? why? why? would Cooper not just tell the crew fly V 23, for the love of all that is good in this world please answer the question.

"Doesn’t matter, consensus doesn’t make fact. Sluggo_Monster" Goes along the lines of, "perception is reality"..... to the sheep. Thats why you, Sluggo Monster, howl at the moon. Don't wolves eat sheep?

Bigsky, Don't mean to take you to task, but I think these are the closing arguments to the long debated subject of Cooper's jump experience. Are sport chutes not reliable? If Cooper chose the NB6 because it is reliable and the sport chute is not, you people have choosen one hell of a sport to participate in. Lastly, why do smoke jumpers use chutes today that they cannot effectivly control, as was the case in Coopers jump? Or, do they use rounds they can control, which then comparison to Cooper's jump has no merit. If smoke jumpers do use rounds that cannot effectivly be controled, why? That makes no sense to me.

We know the answer to this, the flight crew was going to take Cooper out over the coast, the crew made no reference to V23 until they were directed to that flight path.

Bigsky, I think we have found the answer about the chutes. From everything posted here about the chutes we know the sport chute offered better performance and would have been the better choice. So why did he choose the NB6 if the sport rig was a better choice for the jump he was making. The answer, I believe, is it was a better choice for Cooper the individual. Cooper chose it with no regard to the type of jump he was making, he chose it based on what he knew. So from this we know he had limited experience jumping. If he had experience, logic dictates he would have chose the sport chute. To support this theory we can use Cooper's very words, "I want two front and two back chutes." Cooper said this because it was what his experience told him to say, it is what he knew. Based on the experts here, we know that an experienced jumper would not have made the request in this manner. The actions and words stand as the evidence on Coopers jump experience. To counter that you have to have something that points in the other direction. This is where our DZ experts come in. Can someone make a logical argument that because Cooper made no specific demands for equipment and he chose the poorer performing chute, that this actually makes him experienced and knowledgeable? From the totality of whats been posted, no. There is no evidence to support this. So the answer then is that Cooepr was not an experienced jumper. Here's the real problem with all of this as it relates to this forum, indeterminacy. Of course this is good and bad; good because I get to fully vet theories, bad because it goes on forever. In the end though I get to take the good and take the bad, I take them both and there you have the facts...... As I see them. In regards to V 23, we will see?

"As a retired commercial pilot, aviation professional and skydiver for more than 30 years, I have to jump on the Sluggo Wagon regarding the V23 debate. If DBC was on his game as much as I suspect, his flight restrictions set the stage for V23 to be the most likely choice. "Perhaps he had two DZ's prepared, in case the flight took the coastal route. Sluggo, if you can continue on the course you're heading, I feel you have a big shot at moving this case forward. Thanks for keeping it fresh. 359 (My BASE#, not my DBC suspect #)" I agree with you and I agree with Sluggo, given the parameter's Cooper set in place, V 23 was the most obvious. In fact they would have had to work to make the other V's fit. Now we have to determine why Cooper would have not declared a flight path. What would he gain by assuming, given the parameters he gave, they would take V 23. It may seem like a well beaten horse but it is important because it clears the way in making a strong statement about who Cooper might have been as a person. I am sure all will be revealed soon. Snowmman, I figured out PA's, personal attacks (and some on here don't think much of my investigative abilities). Never has happened from me and won't for very good reasons. As was just recently pointed out I am an FBI agent, this is a public forum, I am here as an FBI agent. You took my sense of humor the wrong way which is a big problem in the 2 dimensional world of the net. I will use more smiley faces

Just for the record I don't believe, nor ever believed, Cooper landed in or near the Columbia. I have never come close to forwarding that idea.

Ckret, Okay, I’ll try to state my position without a lot of detail. First, a disclaimer… I have not yet proven anything (to my satisfaction), I have done a lot of leg work and I have found enough supporting information to make me feel it was worth my while to dig deeper. Here is the main thesis: Cooper gave the flight crew a set of instructions, That set of instructions defined certain parameters, altitude, airspeed, etc. Much like a magician (or more properly an illusionist) uses “misdirection” (asking for situation A, which sets up situation B, such that the observer thinks situation B was his own idea), Cooper used flight parameters to dictate that the flight would use Victor-23 as the flight path. Victor-23 has two distinctive turns that could be measured very well with even the cheapest of compasses. This allowed Cooper to locate and jump at (or soon after) the BTG VOR. The parameters that I have been investigating are such things as: His first stated destination was Mexico (or possibly Mexico City), whether it was Mexico City specifically, or just Mexico is immaterial because both are EAST (and south) of Seattle. (There is no point in Mexico that is west of Seattle). He would have accepted Phoenix, AZ (East and South) and he accepted Reno, NV (again, east and south). He would not accept San Francisco, Ca. He was going to jump, he wasn’t accepting a destination, he was accepting a ROUTE. The MOCAs* and OROCAs* for points in a direct line to Reno, Phoenix or any point in Mexico are too high for 10,000 ft. flight. Any westerly routes (Like V-27) just added more stops and more fuel burn. I hope to prove V-23 was the only option. I have much documentation. And, thanks to your high-res Seattle Sectional, I have a complete list of 1971 Victor Airways out of Seattle. I have a few more days worth of work to do. When I’m finished, I will make a presentation to you. Or, I will have discovered I was wrong, in which case, I’ll go on to something else. Thanks, Sluggo_Monster *MOCA =- Minimum Obstruction Clearance Altitude *OROCA = Off Route Obstruction Clearance Altitude Gottcha Sluggo but please address this in your theory. There is generally consistency in action within a given act. If a subject rob's a bank, he will use the same demand note or same words, dress in the same manner, hit the same type of branch, many times the same bank, over and over until caught. In Coopers case there is consistency in his actions on the night, Ordered chutes, left what kind up to the provider. Ordered money, left the denomination up to the provider. Ordered the direction of travel (south), but left the path up to the provider. Each of these demands was a vital part of whether he would be able to make a safe and successful escape, yet he left it up to the provider. His level of planning and execution set him up to successfully initiate the crime but he is consistent with a lack of planning the escape. This tells me that Cooper thought out the crime but didn't have the actual experience of jumping to realistically plan the escape. For me to buy into Cooper was planning an illusion you will have to prove purpose. Why do it, what benifit would it have for Cooper to risk the flight crew taking a route he didn't think was possible. Also, you have to reconcile the chutes and money with the route as like actions. In other words, the whole of the escape plan was to create an illusion of who Cooper was.