Ckret

Lisa, Wow, if my math is right (most of the time it is not) you post on average 282 posts a month, I thought Snowmman had much to say at 118 a month. Welcome to the thread, Yagerbombs!!! I guess that would be a jumpers drink. Snowmman drinks beer, he is quite funny once he "gins up." Can't wait to see what happens once folks start Yagering up.

Snowmman, In light of all of the new evidence against you I hate to inform you of this,... "as of this moment you're on double ckret probation."

wolfriverjoe: Thanks for takin up the brush, you'll find the bucket over there......: "Tom said to himself that it was not such a hollow world, after all. He had discovered a great law of human action, without knowing it – namely, that in order to make a man or a boy covet a thing, it is only necessary to make the thing difficult to attain. If he had been a great and wise philosopher, like the writer of this book, he would now have comprehended that Work consists of whatever a body is obliged to do, and that Play consists of whatever a body is not obliged to do. And this would help him to understand why constructing artificial flowers or performing on a tread-mill is work, while rolling ten-pins or climbing Mont Blanc is only amusement............." I don't really think like this but it fit so well; by the way, you missed a spot. baahahhaha. Sorry back on the cold meds.

I am a salaried employee, no overtime; not even on callouts during the night, weekends or holidays. We do get what’s called “availability pay” but to collect it we have to work 2 extra hours a day on top of the 8 hours scheduled. AVP adds 25% to our base GS pay. As for Cooper, the whole point was to have you fine folks take over the investigation. We are far too busy with other pressing matters. I am not re-opening the case, it was never closed. I am not re-investigating the case, it has already been investigated. I am providing as much information about the case (as I possibly can) to as many people who want it, so that they can investigate and solve it. Now go think happy thoughts

Ok............ (long pause while Larry thinks about them) There, I fell much better!!!!!!!!

Snowmman, Hit a few shots and come back with something better, let the hops and barley do their magic.

Say what you want carrot nose, but bottom line is the kid went to jail. What else you got?

Who's joking?.... and take that out of your hand, your palm will get hairy. Cold medicine, I blame it on cold medicine

Snowmman wrote "(I think you posted numbers but didn't give the source of them)." You don't trust me? I am from the government and here to help. How could you not trust an FBI agent; after all, I am the one that protects your rights as provided by the constitution of the United States. By the way, that book you checked out is two days late and at the moment your cell phone is off; just here to help. Oh, and that web site you have minimized right now, I didn't know people could do that, very strange.

Didn't Sluggo work on this as well? I posted the winds at some point on this thread or the old one. Attached are the forecast for 11/24/71. I don't know if you can read them, maybe print them off and use a mag of some sorts to read them. They are faded to begin with, just found these a few days ago.

"The Chute Had Knots" by Larry, I mean Ckret Agent When I pulled out all of the evidence, The chute was packed in a box. The chute had 36 years under its belt, The chute had lots of knots Taken out, put back in; again and again, The chute had many knots Laid out, gathered up, laid out, gathered up, There were lots of knots. Toil as I did to get them free, Just to put it back in a box. Didn't get me closer to Cooper Perhaps it was all for not. I am on sick leave today and bored!!!

In regard to the Boeing Jump club, it must have been an official un-official club for awhile. The files clearly reference members of the Boeing Jump club (1972) and that they were all investigated; as were the folks that worked on that project no one can talk about. As far as the cord goes, there is no mystery as to what he used, I have many feet of it. it is not smooth nylon, it actually has grip to it. Which is surprising given that you would not want it to knot. It took me hours to get the knots out when I wanted to measure the length of cord he used.

This is wrong too. Interpretations are always wrong to some degree by definition. i.e. the word "interpret" implies some subjectiveness being applied. This will change over time as new data arrives or old data becomes discarded. The error here is not the interpretation. The error is not using all of the primary data. The missing primary data is the crew debrief which I theorized was not part of the data used by the guy who predicted the DZ. Basically, this is an example of failure due to non-freely-available data. i.e. believing that experts can interpret data and pass it on only their interpretation. Here, the FBI had access to data about the crew debrief, and different people were involved with the test drop, and different people did the DZ prediction. It's not clear that all the people, and all the data, were ever in a single room together to hash it all out. (edit) I say this because we are not "smarter" about this in 2008, and there is no new data. The only difference is we're looking at all the data and interpreting one way. That strongly suggests the "wrong" interpretation in 1971 is due to the factors I describe. Process failure, basically. If it was NASA, and a mars lander had crash landed as a result, we'd have a much better post mortem. Since it's just Cooper, we instead let the myth of jumping into the woods live for 37 years. Good enough for government work! or Can't see it from where I live! I think that was the point I was making, The calculations were made on the information provided, however, the results were wrong because they had the wrong or incomplete information to begin with. It was done so by ommision and/or (lets say) "poor transmission of data" if that suits you better. We aren't building rocket ships here. "NASA?" you crack me up Snowmman

I had a longer reply but a short one will suffice. This answer is wrong. You can't move and have the calculations be correct unless the wind is exactly the same as calculated in the original spot. Also the plane speed (more precisely velocity?) is different at a different point south. (which means cooper's speed plus direction at jump is different. And heck we might not have the data but possibly the alititude at jump is different. Basically everything's different, and it's even unclear how accurate the original calcuation was, because of it's fuzzy use of error margins in the data...i.e. the idea of drawing a couple of straight lines is bad graphing of error boundaries I think. Basically, you have to start all over. Surprised Ckret thinks the old calculations/map can be reused, just shifting it south. It's like it's 1971 again, and bad use of data again? The 1971 data is correct when looked at from a "general" sense. There are far too many unknowns for any real precision. The winds a few miles south of the 1971 search are generally the same, the speed of the aircraft is generally the same, the performance of the chute is generally the same. When we can locate more specific data we can plug it in and hope for a better result but we don’t have that, “is that so wrong”

I would encourage all of you to stay away from the nonsense, of course I realize to some this is all nonsense, c'est la vie. Soon we will have really cool stuff to take about. I just doubled the daily rations of food to the guys locked in the basement so maybe that will get them moving. "it puts the lotion in the basket."

----------------------------------------------------- Reply> in order for something to "oscillate" you have to have some force(s) being applied where a sympathetic frequency is set up. The logical force is the wind, or cross winds. The logical event is the stairs extending into the air stream. But this happens at about 20:12 precisely when they make a left hand turn in the approach to BTGVOR, which changes the angle of the aircraft relative to the wind(s). So, it is not required that the stairs are being extended further, only that the flight angle of the (plane with stairs) changes with respect to the airstream. Also there is nothing in the transcript which says the oscillations increased or decreased after they began or if they went away? prior to the bump? The test which confirmed the bump also confirmed oscilaltions prior to the bump? And what exactly was "oscillating" Just an observation - Georger[/reply You are applying too much science, over overanalyzing, sometimes the answers are simple. From putting everything together, the crew was referencing the cabin pressure gauge when the statement of “oscillation” was made. Not that they were feeling an oscillation in the aircraft. Remember; in another log created at the same time as the one reporting oscillations the word used was “fluctuations.” Because the crew always referenced the bump as a pressure change it would make since that prior to the large “Pressure Event,” there were small events leading up. Now go back and get you’re Cooper “on.” You are gingerly walking down the air stairs because you have never done this before. With each step you take caution, take a step and see what happens, take a step and see what happens. As you are doing this, the cabin pressure gauge in the cockpit starts to fluctuate. The engineer notices this and reports the anomaly to ops, these fluctuations continue for a few minutes as you figure things out. Once you’re set you jump and the stairs come back to the body of the plane, causing the pressure event known as “the bump.” It is noticeable but not dramatic, the needle instantly spikes, they notice the change in their ears, things calm quickly. Because the small fluctuations continue (the stairs are still open to about 15 degrees) nothing is reported they just assume this is a continuation of what they have already reported. But they do take note, “wonder if he just jumped?” As they wonder this they notice they are just north of the Portland suburbs. I think the individual typing the teletype was being fed info from the guy keeping the hand written log. When the guy keeping the handwritten log said, “they are reporting some type of fluctuations in the cabin pressure; they said the gauge is bouncing.” The teletype operator then typed “oscillations” his words not the crews. Amazing how small, even seeming harmless interpretations can cause large fluctuations or oscillations in history.

Snowmman, Didn't open the jpg's to look at the report you were referencing, I was speaking to the jump (equipment used and how it would have performed in a high or low opening) which was calulated by a member of the Boeing jump club, of which all were investigated. The problem with the report is they used the time of the oscillations for the jump, which i think is wrong. i think when you put the whole jump together the oscillations were Cooper slowly moving down the stairs. The bump didn't occur until a few minutes later; when they could see Portland just from the north. So all of the calulations are correct, just have to move everything south a few minutes.

One file of several hundred; there is no "main" file. the main file number is 164-SE-81 "NORJAK" there are hundreds of sub-files. There are files that look like the one you posted that are summary files that contain all of the main 302's from the night of the jump as well as all main investigative efforts. If you could get your hands on just one file that would be the one.

We used flight data from NW, the person doing the calulations on the jump was a Boeing engineer who was a member of their jump club

Always here 3 to the double 7, just not much for me to add to the conversation right now.

I agree, the pills, not so much; the beer, keep it flowing I enjoy the humor. Snowmman, throw some shots in the mix and lets see what comes out I am hoping to have something completed for 11/24, the work may not be finished but the story of the work may be to the point of release. Then again it may not, so you may want to get some Ambien. It seems to be working for some, just not fast enough

Damn Quade, you have been away too long, nice to see you back in the mix. Snowmman, I say you keep pounding them down, not that your sober post aren't quality but your drunk post are excellent. Orange, I can't say that an abandoned car was not investigated, if it was, nothing of value came from it because it is not highlighted anywhere in the files that I can find. Congrats on your baby!!!!!

Solving the Cooper case is great and all, but what about the "pretty co-agent?" I mean, well.... you know, is there anything there or what?

Theory not a myth; I am not forwading as fact the money was in the bag, I am saying given the set of facts it is most probable. I didn't suggest the money was buried there by humans in my last post. I said the bag wasn't required for protection or transport by water. You jumped to the conclusion I implied human burial (although I have said that before). There's nothing that says the bag was needed for protection or transport by water. That's the myth you've created. You've assumed 3 bundles couldn't move together without the bag.

I agree with you to a point but you have to also throw the other factors into the mix. If the money was buried there it had to have happened after 1974. there is nothing that points to that having happened, for it to be so you have to add human elements. If you do that you have to develope further motives, additional facts and so on......