Ckret

"I fall on the bottom of the intellectual scale here and Night Clerk is doing well. I am having a hard time holding on to the bit and reins. If Carr doesn't do something soon I think Night Clerk
will come thru the gate without waiting for the buzzard..oops I think that is supposed to be spelled differently.


On a serious NOTE. The night clerk wants to go public, but I am the one saying NOT yet...let the FBI do what they have to do. Since Carr made his narrow minded statement about me - this indicates the FBI is NOT searching their records for the registration."

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I have already posted that I cannot find a registration with John Collins name on it. For the sake of argument let’s say that there was a registration with the name John Collins on it and the clerk says that John Collins looks like the picture of Duane Weber and he believes Duane Weber looks like Cooper. OK, now what? That would be great info to confront Weber with but that is not a possibility.

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Mr. Ckret, Sir,

I beg to differ with you!

On page 98 of (your) the file. At 6:21 PM, PST (my paraphrase):
305: We have instructions from the individual. He wants 1) To go to Mexico City 2) To fly with gear down and flaps at 15 degrees, after underway, all lights to be turned out in aircraft…

These request are essential to understanding what the knew, didn’t know or guessed about the 727. If I am interpreting it incorrectly, correct me, and offer an alternate interpretation…. Please sir.

Respectfully,

Sluggo_Monster

Creepy Uncle Sluggo is back!!!!!

I am glad you brought that up, ever play that game where you whisper a statement to someone and then they pass it along and then that someone passes what they hear along............ by the time it gets through 10 people what comes out the other end is not the original message. I believe this is what is at play here with a few issues.

Cooper makes demands with no real specifics to people who operate with specifics. I wrote about this some time ago; when you fly the 727 with wheels down at 10,000 feet what are the flap options?

My guess is 15 degrees is the most optimal setting, so when the pilot radioed the demands he simply added the “15 degrees.” I am sure to the pilot “flaps down” means nothing; especially when the pilot is communicating with others who speak his professional language. If the pilot said to flight ops “flaps down” well what does that mean? So given the parameters Cooper gave the pilot overlaid his knowledge so that it meant something, “15 degrees”

The same can be said about the pilots stating “chest” chute versus “front” chute. The pilots must have at some point had some type of instruction or knowledge transfer in regard to jumping and the equipment used to do it. So again front chute did not mean anything to the pilots but chest did. So when communicating to others that speak your language you will translate the meaning so that they understand.

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georger said:
Cooper's routine may have been simple because
he planned it that way or because he was capable of
nothing more, or some combination of the two.

Interesting thoughts, georger. But Cooper had limited knobs to turn. One could theorize, that he saw how prior hijackers tried to create new knobs, say with guns, weapons etc and failed. So he knew not to try that.

Sometimes the only knobs that work are very small ones, and time.

The mistake is in judging Cooper by the knobs he used. It assumes other knobs could have been more successful. All we know, is that the knobs Cooper used, worked. Therefore, Cooper was right.

We know hijackers who attempted to use/create other knobs failed. One could say we don't really know if Cooper succeeded. But unlike others, we're unsure if he failed.

Is the experimental database broad enough to deduce anything from that? No.

But that's life. So no use worrying about it.

I posted before, that Google is showing that potentially we don't need models any more. Models are always right to a degree but always wrong to a degree. Sometimes I wonder if you worry more about the model, than the result. Things like Google are creating the opportunity to say: "no models, just correlations"

No model can predict the future. If it could, people will change the future so it's not predictable.
We only use models cause we didn't have anything else.
It's getting close to the time to throw out models. They serve no purpose except to wrongly put a stamp of validation on bad thinking.

So while your thought above sounds good, it's better just to say "Who knows, doesn't matter"

Coopers choice of knobs were in large part only limited by his knowledge base and skillset. The choices he made provide some insight as to who he was. There were many options (knobs) for Cooper that night, yet he gave very little direction for what is in some ways a very complex situation.
That may say a lot even though he said very little.

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So if someone uses a behavior that is known to a small group, do we assume he just looked at something and deduced the behavior, didn't care and was a lunatic or willing to roll the dice on it, or had access to that information, or was stupid and didn't realize there was a question to be asked?

Cooper's flaps, altitude and speed requests (if accurately reported) argue against a couple of the alternatives above. They say Cooper knows something about planes. They hint Cooper knew about dropping stuff from planes.

377

Cooper never requested a speed or degree of flap setting.

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I'd go by Ckret's version of the note myself, keep in mind that Cooper didn't let Tina keep it, he took it back. Any "testimony" on the note is going to come from the interview with Tina after the fact. How well would she have remembered details like that under those circumstances? I'm a little different, I've trained a bit to study for important details under stressful situations, but I think Tina would have been mostly thinking about how to keep Cooper from setting off the bomb.

whatever. Why are you making excuses for how little we know?

No matter what, there has to be some consensus truth that we say is "The Note". All we have is a casual comment from Ckret on the text. I had other questions. Sluggo noted that the stew notes describe the original note slightly differently.

So all I'm saying, is that Ckret could tell us more about the testimony about the note. Maybe the interview didn't cover more detail.

I don't know.

That's all I'm saying. Anyone who says they know more than Ckret's casual post on the text of the note, would be interesting to hear from.

(edit) For background on uncertainty even around the text:
Per Crew Notes #2:
Miss -
I have a bomb in my briefcase.
I want you to sit next to me.

I posted exactly what Schaffner said the note said, she is the one who received the note from Cooper. I also posted exactly what she said Cooper dictated to her. Whether that is exactly what Cooper wrote and said I don't know, I was not there. I believe they are exacting, Schaffner wrote notes and kept a running log of what happened as it was happening.

In regard to handwriting samples, I have several hand written letters from Duane to his mother. Speaking of that, there was a comprehensive investigation into Duane’s life, from his teen years through his death. We tried very hard to link Weber to the Cooper case, we put a large amount of effort into the investigation. From our Seattle office to the Jacksonville office to our lab in Quantico and a few in between. We interviewed family members, colleted evidence and documents outlining his life; civilian and military. I have the file at my desk; from that investigation no leads were developed that could be followed linking Weber to the Cooper case.

Keep in mind this is not a member of the a victims family seeking justice or a family member seeking justice from a wrongful conviction. This is someone wanting to find justice by having her husband named as a hijacker and after a comprehensive investigation the FBI’s refusal to do so. That ranks very low on the “seeking justice” scale and my efforts to help. That is why I have encouraged those wanting further review to seek a private investigator. My mind is not closed, I just need evidence, not stories that have no investigative avenue. No one is hiding anything and if a private investigator, or anyone, was able to come up with something that could link Weber to Cooper (and we could prove it) so be it; case solved.

Orange,

The tie is a "skinny" black tie with no markings that could ID it to any one individual. I am sure millions, as in the many plural form, had one just like it in 1971. And the tie clip is a clasp, not the “stick pin” type. There are no markings on any of it that some one could look at the two items and say, “Those belong to..........”

Hope that helps

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yeah, I don't really like lurkers who freeload.
"ggjumpshot" sent me a PM with a nymag email address. A couple weeks back I think?? 11/3/08

He mentioned some stuff that I told him was novice level Cooper thinking...Level 0. He went away. I'm surprised he never posted here. I told him to go research when night vision goggles first arrived in Vietnam! (for 377).

He was on about Dan Cooper comics and NATO bases or something. Didn't talk much with him.

Why do random lurkers think I would care about keeping any PMs "private"? Is there some law of the jungle that if I violate I get constipation for the rest of my life?

It's like walking up to a crazy nut in the parking lot, ranting about Cooper, and thinking the nut will just forget what you just said.

It's like "Oh yeah, I have a nymag email address, so I get some respect" ...not!

Get a clue! the internet is full of kooks..don't send out your phone number!

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forgive me for waiting so long to contact you. i'm not a message board person, but have been following the case for some time and am now working on a book for crown publishing. (I know, another book, right?) anyway, i'm after pretty much everything in this thing but was particularly intrigued with your take on dan cooper the french comic. and other things. i have much to ask you. what's the best way? my email is [email protected] (xxx-xxx-xxxx)

(okay I had a heart and didn't include his phone number)

Another example of his "deep" thinking. He sounds more interested in getting a cutesy story than anything else...
Like duh, like we don't know who wrote the Dan Cooper stuff.

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i see a lot of things in the toast. Jesus, maybe, but also Albert Weinberg.

who? he's the creator of the dan cooper comic. he's from belgium.

i think the coincidence between the cooper name and the cooper comic is too great to overlook. agree?

if so, then how would the hijacker become acquainted with the french comic?

i think he's european misses the point. he could easily be an american, or maybe even a canadian, stationed in france or elsewhere in europe during that time. He could even be at an airforce base.

but now i am speculating...

my question is: if we agree the the dan cooper comic book lead is too good to ignore, have you taken it a step further?

i agree: this thing doesn't have to be so complicated. that's why the name he gave (dan cooper) seems like such a no-brainer lead.

I don’t want to speak for Geoff, but he was lurking here at my advise for research. So much good work was/is being done that I did not want him to miss it.

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Well, OK, CKRET. I guess I was a little fast to judgment. Besides, you seem to have a large cadre of buddies in here who are now chastising me for taking you on. Humble apologies. Anything that you can share, though, regarding locations on 467 where some of the prints were lifted? I'll watch my language next time.
ps. By the way, what beach are you sucking it up on?

None of the prints lifted in the original sweep of the plane were of value. When it was discovered that none of the lifts could be used, agents were asked to go back on the plane and try again. The prints recovered that are of value came from a magazine found in the row of seats Cooper was sitting.

Fast forward to 37 years; I cannot find any reference to Cooper reading a magazine. Agents did the best they could with what they had at the time. Whether that effort recovered Cooper’s prints I don’t know, but (Buzzard) if you send me the originals instead of copies I’ll run the comparisons.

As far as “buddies” go on this thread, I can tell you this, no one gives me passage here. I think it may have more to do with you having just joined the conversation in October, having 6 post and taking me to task without provocation. But then again I suspect we go back a ways, don’t we.

Regardless, apology accepted; you seem to have much to say, I look forward to your contribution.

PS Orlando

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Hello Everyone!

Tom Kaye from the news clip checking in. I have been watching this forum daily for months and have enjoyed your interchange very much. There was a lot of discussion within our team about going public and yes some of them prefer to remain anonymous for the moment. We did it mostly because it would help out Ckret and shake the trees.

I am most curious to see what Snowman can come up with about me so I will not say much more besides the fact I am not a Dr.. The guy has amazing skills..

Although I knew of the Cooper story for decades, I was never really a fan until this project came along. Hats off to Georger and Sluggo for the immense databank on this subject.

TomKaye

Tom:

I hope you don’t have too many skeletons in the closet, Snowmman is about to tell the world your life story. Great job on the story, you represented the project very well, I had no doubts.

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See the video about Dr. Kaye's work on the money:

H E R E

Thanks to Georger, Sluggo and the rest of you citizen sleuths.

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37 years to the day. Snowman says that Larry Carr is "full of shit." No, he's just full of himself. I heard today that Larry Carr is going to appear on the "History Channel" in a role as Ckret Agent for a tv docu-drama. So Larry must be saving all the good "shit" for himself. I thought Larry wanted us to help him solve the DB Cooper mystery. Hollywood Carr. Well, after over 500 posts (many on company time), I guess Larry is positioning for "something shit" of this forum. How come the audience here is getting smaller?

Well Buzzard, lets see, the investigative strategy from the beginning of my effort has been to get as much factual info to the public as possible. The belief is that if the public has the right info new leads may develop. The best way to accomplish this is to use conduits capable of reaching as many people as possible. In this day and age that would be the media and internet. To that end, I wish the History Channel would do something on Cooper.

As for your blurb about, “doing it on company time” I do believe I am the case agent. If the investigative strategy is to openly communicate to folks on the web and through the media when do you propose I do it. So you can rest a bit easy, the majority of my posting and surfing of this site and others about Cooper happens before or after work, or like now while on vacation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VY6jzgWJ7c&NR=1

This one is good, by the way the party is tonight if anyone can make it Aerial

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Yay! Do we have lift-off? Ckret, would there be some record of who the agents were who interviewed him originally? (Just trying to square his statement about the register with you having said you couldn't find a record of it being taken).

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Here's the issue i have with it. In the months after the hijacking there was no bigger criminal case in the Bureau. Every agent in the Northwest was helping run down leads, no stone was left unturned.

If a clerk had stated to agents that a man named John Collins checked into a motel the night before the crime and he looked like the hijacker, there would have been a massive effort to vett that out. Nothing in the files mention a John Collins until Jo steps into the picture in the late 90's.

I just find that odd, not saying that it did not happen and i am just missing it somehow, just doubtful; but that's my job. I will look a bit further to confirm my suspicions

And now the night clerk,

Yes a gentleman has come forward and I interviewed him, he seemed sincere and well intentioned. He essentially said to me exactly what Jo has said:

According to this individual, on Nov 23rd 1971, a John Collins checked into the motel where he was working as a night clerk.

A few days later FBI agents arrived with the sketch of Dan Cooper and interviewed him. He said the sketch looked like a man named John Collins who registered on the 23rd. He said the agents took the register.

At some point much later he was shown a picture of Duane Weber and feels the picture of Weber looks like the sketch, which looks like the John Collins he remembers checking into the motel.

I interviewed him via phone; he turned in his statement to our Portland office so I have not seen the written version yet.

Could this really be an odd time to go on vacation? In America, is this not the busiest time of year for travel? This is after all the Thanksgiving season.

As for Dan Cooper comic books in a US prison, no way. To my knowledge they were not sold in the United States. They were written only in French and sold through a French company. It was a very small circulation. Unless you were a collector, you would have had to been able to read French to want the comic. Unless you just wanted to look at the pretty pictures.

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Georger posted

"The guy who paid the ransom for Northwest was named John Ahlquist and was a middle manager with NW. He had to walk out to the airplane buck naked with the money bag his only protection from the elements. Anyway, John ended up as my boss at Airline X for a while, which led directly to my retirement from the airline. I did, however, come to understand why he was chosen to carry the ransom to Dan Cooper on the airplane. I am convinced that his bosses secretly hoped the hijacker would shoot him."

reply:
This is not the person who brought the money to the plane and he was not naked. There was a hijacking at SeaTac after the Cooper case where an FBI agent had to carry the cash to the plane in his underware.

hmmm... when one of you is in a playful mood, kindly go hijack an aeroplane (any old plane will do, seeing as you will not get to jump it). please insist that the ransom is delivered by Agent Carr in his underwear, with streaming to Youtube . When you get sent to jail, i will arrange for a subscription in your name to russian brides/asian brides/whatever brides you may be interested in

I could not imagine the grief I would take from those I work with if something like that should ever happen. As it is now everytime something hits the news with this case or bank robbery they get a few days out of it and thats with a suit on.

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Tell the night clerk he can stay in the USA and teach me.
My posts are no good.
My English is suffering.
Ckret thinks I'm an ass.
I need to be able to win friends and influence people thru English wizardy.
Tell the night clerk, he's my only hope.

I don't think you're an ass, I just think, as we all need to at times, you need to step away from the computer for ten minutes before sending some of you're posts. It's not the content, the content is awsome. It's not whether you agree or disagree, I'd rather you disagree, it's the tone.

KHAAAANNNN!!!

I think it is the only logical conclusion one can make. He grabbed the NB6 because it is what he knew. When he realized there were no D rings, he clipped the belly reserve to the webbing because it was his only choice.

There was no need to dismantle the second belly reserve for parts, he already had one open and cut apart. He already had tied off the money bag, so the money was secured and ready to go. The only use of the extra reserve had to be for its intended purpose. When he realized his only choice was the webbing that’s what he did.

And yet another point as to why Cooper was a novice at best. Cooper made no demand in regard to denominations. Your right, my "maker-of-small-pieces" friend, weight is very important in regard to load and rate of descent. Anyone with knowledge would have most likely asked for hundreds, decreasing weight (from approximately 20 lbs to 4 lbs) and size dramatically.

In fact, if he had asked for hundreds it would have all fit in the reserve container which he could have securely clipped to the webbing of the NB6 harness

There are certain attributes associated with decay, or its nicer cousin aging, that all humans experience in common. Therefore, we all have a common understanding of what it means when a witness states, “the person appeared to be in his 20’s.” Without going into specifics with the witness, a sketch artist is trained on what those are; as well as 30’s 40’s 50’s and so on.

The artist will automatically add those components to the sketch because they are generally the same for everyone, wrinkles, sags, thin lips, droopy or heavy eyelids…. Also the same for every one is placement of parts, two eyes where eyes go, a nose where the nose goes and so on. The details that are different in everyone are (macro) female or male and (micro) symmetry, color and size of parts.

So a large portion of the data is given in just stating male or female and age, from there the focus narrows. A rough sketch is developed and then shown to the witness who refines it until they feel the subject depicted in the sketch is the subject they saw or witnessed doing said crime.

In a case like Cooper, where you have more than one witness it comes down to weight and majority rules. If you have four witnesses and three agree on the sketch and one doesn’t; and the three that agree had the best view, then you go with the one that has the most agreement.

"Ckret always went on about the money, but I think that was secondary. I think the grudge was primary."

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You write it in past tense, I still go on and on about the money. If Cooper did this and his primary focus was a grudge it wasn’t much of one. If someone puts their life on the line to make a point they at least make one. Cooper never made his point; he never brought to light what it was he was so angry about. So then you have to default to the money making the point for him.

Well, that was not much of a point if it was solely a grudge. $200,000 to Northwest was not gong to be a blip on their radar. So if it was a grudge, then Cooper was not just an idiot, he was a flaming idiot.

Boy howdy that was fun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"The (I think second?) Dan Cooper comic book that was released in 1971. Amongst my crazy theories was whether Cooper might have seen it on a newsrack or something at the last minute, triggering a memory from his past.

The title of the '71 #17 comic was "S.O.S. dans l'Espace""

reply:

I think the comic is a great find and has several possibilities. I will be highlighting it as part of "new" evidence in the case. I think it can be used to narrow the pool of possible "Coopers"

Not saying Cooper got the idea from the comic series but that he may have been a fan or collector. His exposure was in a small area of Europe or Quebec.

So now one of the theories; we are looking for a male 6’, brown eyes, dark complexion, dark hair, would have been in late 40’s to early 50 in 71, no distinguishing accent, possibly served in the military as part of a flight crew and collected or read Dan Cooper comic books.

If I put that out to the media maybe a new lead develops or at least makes enough of a buzz that someone who knows something comes forward.