ChrisG

Well, Mike, to be honest- besides you and your son, I don't know many fun jumpers that WOULDNT like to attend a boogie. My definition of a fun jumper is someone that makes no money from the sport, and is not on a serious team. I know you like to do fun jumps too and by your skills you obviously have many under your belt, but from what I've seen, most of your jumps now are paid for doing video. Jared, I think, has his sights set on bigger things in this sport, and I understand (sorta) why you and others just dont like boogies. The idea here is to create a plan of co-operation amoungst local DZs to revive the boogie in a way that everyone could benefit from. I'm not advocating anybody closing their business down.

Yes, Jared, very good. You have added greatly to this discussion. As you may have noticed, my original provocative comments have evolved to produce some very honest opinions and sometimes firey discussion, Its an old 3 stage tactic- everybody vents, the conservation becomes civil (sorta) ), then solutions arise. (hopefully) So as this about the boogie winds down I would like to use one of your quotes "To restore the glory, it has to be a truly great event. One that everyone wants to go to because somehow they KNOW it's going to be awesome. If you build it, they will come." Imagine this: THE RICHMOND BOOGIE! Brought to you by: (in no particular order) SWC, Green County skydiving, Start Skydiving, Skydive Greensburg, ETC, ETC. (I know some wounds are deep, but even old rock bands finially get back together) We could have cooler planes, like maybe even a CASA! Think how cool it would be if Team Fastrax was there and jumped with us turkeys and did one of their fancy demos. That in itself would attract a lot of jumpers, wuffos, tandems, and recruits. The possibilities are endless- especially now that the WFFC is gone. Will this happen?- probably not. Could it happen? Yes. Wouldn't that be FUN! Chris

Hi Anders, " The “decreased nudity” at Richmond is, I suppose, due to the Christian Rockband at Start Skydive." NO, that probably increased the nudity. No girl that liked to show off her titties would show for the christian band. In reply to: "What I fail to see is how you figure that posting stuff like:" and "Seriously, seems to me that instead of being for The Richmond Boogie, you end up -in a sad way- being against all the other DZs as well as the regional director." I'm suspicious you dont understand the background of my comments, so I understand that you "fail to see". And whats that "in a sad way" crap, you _______? (fill in the blank) You dont seem to have caught on that a lot of us speaking here about the boogie know each other on a first name basis, so just let us duke it out , OK? I jump at all the DZs mentioned (or plan too), and a fact is that if DZOs got too pissed off at anybody that criticised them, a lot of us would have nowhere to jump. And so what if I criticise the RD, what the hells wrong with that? He aint my captain. I'm allowed to speak out.

Good post Brew, its OK, you always ramble like that.

That is a good suggestion, worth discussion. My personal view is it needs to be a 3 day weekend, as that makes it worth the drive for the many people that can't take an extra day off work. I made a silly response to a sarcastic question which was-- SO, you think everybody should just close down, huh? And I said Yea, I'll vote for that. I know thats stupid, and will never happen. I've heard stories from other DZs about DZOs making their instructors stick around,-or else! Well, I think thats OK, its their business and they can run it however they want, the good side of it is the instructor has the freedom to quit if he doesnt like it. I've had more than one boss order me to show up for overtime- or else, and I either showed or quit. I mostly showed, but once, I had to quit a job to go to the boogie for some pre-planned big-ways. DZOs have complained forever that they make little or no money from us fun jumpers. That still seems to be the case because you often hear things like; "You guys wouldn't be jumpin these fancy turbins if it wasn't for tandems" And that brings me to my point. Local DZOs should encourage their fun jumpers to go, rather than induce peer pressure and freebies to get them to stay. Its good for skydiving as a whole for everyone to get together, and a hell of a lot of fun. They dont make much from us anyway, right? So whats the big deal? They can still run the money making part (tandems and AFF) of their business as they please, and their planes wont sit around much more than normal. Theres always some left hanging around, that for some odd reason, just dont like to go to boggies.

Wow. A true wise man has spoken. You are much more eloquent than I am John, and I appreciate your insight. I also appreciate that you seem to have gotten my point. Yes, the boogie will continue, I hope, I just think it could even be better if the local DZs could get along, and promote it together. I remember it took a year for my wife and I to save for our first jump. $120 total. First jumps are expensive and that hasn't changed. The big difference was jumps after that cost a lot less, and It was easy to continue. Theres no way would I have been able to afford AFF. The lack of new fun jumpers may be explained away by the economy, but if thats the case then it only makes sense to find a way to lower prices. I feel the static line-delay thing is a way to do it. Whats your opinion on that? And by the way; it was 'BOGGIE' not 'BOGEY'

I normally don't respond to anyone that hides their name, but I think you're Jared, and you agreed with me on something, so I'll make an exception.

My knowledge is limited on that subject, but it seems to me that since the population is larger now, there would be more with that trait. Considering the number of tandems being done, it just seems to me that there should be more jumpers around. I think we need to simplify things and make it cheaper and easier. AFF is too complicated and expensive to the point that it excludes a large number of people. Its just my opinion, but I really feel that if DZ's would promote a cheaper static line-delay type of progression after a tandem, rather than just AFF, they would get a lot more to stick. Its so much easier to advance, and you dont have to stay real current to succeed. In fact, it is proven with this system that you can be almost a complete oaf and still progress, have fun, and most importantly- jump safely. Look at me! I'm still alive. I feel the obvious lack of fun jumpers is a serious problem to the future of our sport. Why do I care? I dont know, I just do. Bringing back the static line progression is my suggestion to improve things.

Well, yea, sorta. It did take some wind out of my sails though, when I heard it was a 'christian band' No, not that they exist, I just wonder what his agenda is. I vote YES on that. Except for tandems of course. 700 miles may be better though.

Yea Steve, I left smiling too. But you stated the problem-there was only enough nudity to keep you smiling for a mere month! My silly post about limp dicks and nudity, and my slash at Start, has a much deeper meaning. The first being- Dont screw with the Richmond Boogie! Its already standing on fragile ground. Join us instead! We'd love to have you! The second point is - Where's the young fun jumpers? Something is obviously wrong here. Maybe there is pockets of good activity, but without a doubt- The current tandem then "AFF only" system is a failure at retention. Im wary of someone on the BOD that runs a skydiving training school, whose agenda seems to be to promote more training. Military style or not. My opinion is- LESS training is what the sport needs, not more. I'm not an old fart just longing for the good old days, and things have changed, but it is undeniable that: The old static-line then 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 sec delay type of progression was HUGELY SUCCESSFULL at retaining jumpers. Its so simple and easy, cheaper too, and with a few modifications, can be modernized. To save the DZ you could require a tandem first. Maybe we made a mistake going AFF. It seems to lack the 'camaraderie' that the old progression had. AFF students are pretty much on their own, isolated, with sometimes 2 paid instructors. And they often seem to expect to be good enough to jump with the big guys. Jumpmaster training is also cheaper and easier. You dont even have to be good at RW to be an excellent static-line and delay jumpmaster. Thats been proven again and again. Also, the jumpmaster pool is already there. The swoopers! Ask one of them if they might like a free swoop jump just for putting out a couple students. Thats my thoughts, not all my original ideas, I've heard others talking along these lines. What do you think the solution is? More training or less training? By the way, I need to add for some of you military out there, I'm an Army Viet Nam vet. Pleiku- 69-70. (drafted)

I worked for the person in question, and sky-gods in question, for 3 months and I have to say that I have never met a higher quality of people running/sponsoring a DZ. Ever. The particular Board member, (and if you're going to put his name out, the one thing that's the most important for reputation purposes to anyone that works in skydiving at least learn to spell it right) has given everything he can to the sport. While most DZMs take their salary home at night, he goes to the trailer park and lives there with the rest of us common laborers. He gives up paid jumps CONSTANTLY so that other staff can eek out a living. He does this b/c he knows he has his retirement to live off of and others don't. He is a hard ass, and can be an ass... I don't agree w/ him about a lot of things. But his integrity and commitment to making the sport better are SECOND TO NONE.. so while he's sleeping in his trailer tonight.. think about that. As far as the coincidence to the richmond boogie, most DZs run something for labor day, and this being a new DZ especially had reason to.. anything to get jumpers out and check things out, then make their own decision about where they want to jump. This sponsored DZ is also good for fun jumpers. on any given weekday the team trained jumps for fun jumpers were 12 bucks and one week they were 8. so money is not what these people care about. LAY OFF dude. LAY OFF??? Who the fuck are you? What if I dont, you gonna come and beat me up or something? If thats the case, let me know and I'll shut up quickly.

Hi Dave, You hit the nail right on the head. Its the fun jumpers that lose. The following is not directed to you, I'm just venting on what I think is wrong with our sport. Since I do not know what his agenda is, I cannot comment on whether I think his ideas are better. Maybe they are, but I suspect his ideas are more oriented to money. Does his ideas include ways to retain all the young jumpers? Like lowering the costs so they can afford it? Or is he for expanding training programs to make sure they extract as much as possible from each person? Thats all these ex-military lifer types want to do. Train, train, train. "Excel at your highest level" type of crap. They want to train you up (for a fee) until you're an expert, just like the military. Forget about learning on your own, you must pay to be trained. Young jumpers cannot progress up the ladder the way the system is set up now, too friggin much training required. The cost of AFF is outrageous, and the progression is only about 10 times more complicated than it should be, preventing many from participating in the sport. Nowadays, it seems they expect you to be able to do 4 ways to get an A licence, where all thats really necessary is to be stable, do turns, and get yourself to the ground safely. An A licence is now where a C licence used to be. Why?. because of excessive training thats why. They fool people into thinking they will be good skydivers, if they only spend $3,000 to do it. How dissapointing it must be to the many of those that spent the money on AFF, with promises of being good, and then discovered they weren't. If I see my conference director, I may ask- "What are your ideas on how to lower training costs and to make it easier to advance, so we can get more fun jumpers to stick"? Or maybe Kip would like to post on this forum what his ideas are for advancing the sport and our most pressing problem- retaining fun jumpers. Back to the new DZ. They have spent so much money that to remain profitable, they will need to suck up all available tandems in the area. A Caravan and 10 brand new tandem rigs aint cheap baby, and this aint the Chicago metro area. I heard a rumor that they are buying an Otter too. Must be nice. Something will have to give. Big BIG changes are coming if this business model works for them. The future of skydiving may be in the hands of corporations, with only corporate financed Skydiving Mega-Centers to go to. What do you think?

Jen, Of course he's a nice guy, you're his customer. That wasn't the point anyway, and more than likely, he wasn't the one that made the decision. By your comments, I could tell you have a complete lack of knowledge of the local skydiving scene, and you don't understand the history of what is going on. One comment you made did ring a bell though. That being- "his willingness to piss off the BOD if necessary". Hmmmm, I thought the BOD was supposed to work together and reach a consensus on whats the best for the membership. Pissing people off is counterproductive. And, why are you even in this discussion Popsjumper?

UH, wake up , dude. I had a great time. Where did I say I didn't?

The boogie was fun of course for the 200 or so of us mostly 40+ hard core, saggy titty, limpy dick old farts that refuse to quit skydiving. There was some youngsters around, but their absence was apparent. Thats too bad for them, we KNOW how to have a good time. The only problem with that is our ladies (and men) are too embarrased to display their bodys around the fire anymore, and they have built up an incredible tolerance to alcohol, the result being decreased nudity. The whole boogie went by without one naked dance line! That sucks. It probably didn't help that our new corporate mega-buck DZ 30 miles away, with a below the belt sucker punch, offered discounted jumps, free dinner, free band, free SUPER-SKYGOD organizers and other goodies with NO registration fee. On top of that, the person running said DZ happens to be our conference director. Way to go guys, your stab at the Richmond boogie, the longest running tradition in skydiving, is contrary to the words you are speaking. You could be supporting it, for the betterment of skydiving, not trying to undermine it for the betterment of your DZ. Remind me to vote next election, we dont need that kind of conference director. One who didnt even take the time to visit the largest event in his conference, only 40 minutes away. Too busy I guess. I've heard them guys have grand dreams, most of which will probably be fulfilled, except one. They can never replace the Richomon Boogie, they can only destroy it. Good day, Chris