DBTECH

I have no problem with this as long as there is a small guide ring near the closing loop/grommet, as this will assure a cable pull on the same plane as the grommet. This will assure that the loop is not "pulled/lifted" during cable extraction. I would not depend on the cover flap for this function. Also--why do you feel you need a duel loop and cable? Also, the use of 1000lb Spectra for a closing loop would have great strength and longevity when used with a Teflon coated cut-away cable. Dave Brownell

Erez Yaron said> Being that I am that jumper from Israel, and I have just passed on to a different place, other than Eloy, it took me a while to see this and response. I have over 600 jumps, and a lot more pack jobs than that to my credit. I do not always set the brakes the way Dave does it, but seeing him do it before, and being it was his parachute I was jumping, I figured when in Rome... I packed the canopy when he landed, including the brakes, and jumped it. DB> You did not pack the canopy after I landed, as you would have had no idea of my prototype ram-air sleeve, along with it's anti line dump feature-or putting it the container. Erez> Everything was fine, and when I landed, as a habit, I set the brakes, though the canopy was not packed, but placed in the bag as Dave left for the day. I set the brakes exactly the same way as before, when I jumped the canopy, and they worked for me. DB> As I said, you never packed my canopy. (but you did flake and pod it only)(I set the brakes first)(I also put it in my prototype sleeve and also the container. The only thing that I can think of is since Dave has complained about the canopy flying not in a straight line, and talked about checking the lines at home, that he did something while checking the lines after he left that day. DB> Sorry, I never changed the brake set method when I got home, as it looked ok-then I packed. Erez> If it was my fault, then I do apologize, but I really doubt that I did something wrong. DB> Yes you did, but I never should have assumed that the brakes were set correctly--I have been setting my brakes this way for 1000 jumps with "never" a single malfunction--I never would have put the entire toggle/line through the passed through excess line loop with either toggle, let alone both! I do in fact forgive you, as you are obviously not familiar with this method. (You should have just asked. Dave Brownell

Alan asks Dave, I have a couple of questions about this. Does this mean you have a ring added to the top of your riser for this purpose or am I misreading something? DB--In the case of my "current canopy," I "do" have an RW-4 ring on both rear riser connector links, that's used to pass the excess line loop end through on it's way back down to the brake set/ring area, where the toggle nose is first passed through it before being inserted into the brake set loop. Without any added parts, you have two options/points for passing the excess line/loop end through. The point furtherest away from the brake set ring/point, is the area/point above the riser between the connector link. A nominal one inch closer point to the brake set ring/point, is the inside of the riser loop itself. The bottom inside of the riser loop is 1 to 1.5 inches closer to the brake set ring/point than the top of the riser/inside connector link. There is an "optional distance" between the "brake set ring/point," and the "area, ring, loop" that the excess line will pass through, that will give the least amount of slack between these two points, and still allow for the easy passing of the toggle nose through the excess loop first before being inserted into the brake set line loop. The ring I used brings the -excess line pass bottom point- below the top of the riser only about 1/2 inch, but above the bottom of the riser webbing bottom loop area. Note, that some canopies have longer or shorter excess line lengths-so, ideally you would want a pass area/ring in the optimal location, for the above said reasons. Alan--Also, what is the advantage to this method? DB--Very secure--looks very clean and logical--been doing it for 1K jumps, with zero malfunctions, "until I trusted someone else, that should have known better--if he was unfamiliar with this method, he should have just asked myself. Alan--Any disadvantages other than the one indicated? DB- None known Skies, Dave Brownell

cyberskydive said-- He passed it through the loop in the steering line that normally only has the top part of the toggle going through it? DAMN! What you guys smokin over there omri?-LOL must have either small toggles ot large loops! DB--I think you should reread my article, as this is not what he did. Dave Brownell

Brake set nightmare! About ten days ago at Eloy, I let a visiting jumper from Israel jump my Reflex that has a Cobalt 135 in it. After he landed I asked him the usual questions about the canopy performance/opening--his response was positive. It was at this point that I noticed that the brakes had been reset. When I mentioned this to him, he said that he was in the habit in doing so immediately after landing. I didn't give it any thought, as I knew he had 600 jumps, and "should" know how to set the brakes. A few days later I packed the canopy--I did look over the brake set/toggle area, and nothing looked out of the norm whatsoever. My brake set method is to bring the excess line/loop through a ring at the top of the riser, then back down to the brake set loop area--passing the toggle nose first through it, then into the steering line brake set loop. This method is not widely practiced, but known/done by many. (I first started doing it in the very early eighties) I made one jump yesterday at Marana, AZ (Saturday) After I opened, I first killed my slider, then released my brakes--so I thought! It was immediately apparent that something was terribly wrong! My toggles hung down about one foot below the brake set point on the risers! When I pulled down on either toggle, I was in fact pulling the riser itself down! Closer inspection reveled a complete overhand knot at each excess loop pass ring which are located at the top of the risers! I did a few riser flares via the toggles, and figured I was ok making a landing this way. There was basically no wind--I leveled out in riser flair-landing out-doing a slide in landing on the desert floor, with some resulting road rash. (no jump suit) During my walk back to the DZ, I rationalized what he had to have done. After he brought the excess lower steering line loop through the "riser top-excess line pass ring," he then passed the "entire toggle/line" through the loop! After this the excess lower steering line was brought down normally to the set point where the toggle nose was passed through it before being put into the steering line brake set loop. If you can envision this, you can see that it would look totally normal, with no "apparent condition" that would result in a knot forming around the loop pass ring, after toggle/brake release. Yes, as the packer of this canopy, I take total responsibility for this incident, for assuming that an experienced jumper with 600 jumps would know how to set the brakes! He never asked me about the excess line pass ring/method, so maybe this along with his "claimed" 600 jumps sent a subconscious ok message to me. Lesson again learned--Always question the validity of the obvious! Dave Brownell Mesa, Arizona

Brake set nightmare! About ten days ago at Eloy, I let a visiting jumper from Israel jump my Reflex that has a Cobalt 135 in it. After he landed I asked him the usual questions about the canopy performance/opening--his response was positive. It was at this point that I noticed that the brakes had been reset. When I mentioned this to him, he said that he was in the habit in doing so immediately after landing. I didn't give it any thought, as I knew he had 600 jumps, and "should" know how to set the brakes. A few days later I packed the canopy--I did look over the brake set/toggle area, and nothing looked out of the norm whatsoever. My brake set method is to bring the excess line/loop through a ring at the top of the riser, then back down to the brake set loop area--passing the toggle nose first through it, then into the steering line brake set loop. This method is not widely practiced, but known/done by many. (I first started doing it in the very early eighties) I made one jump yesterday at Marana, AZ (Saturday) After I opened, I first killed my slider, then released my brakes--so I thought! It was immediately apparent that something was terribly wrong! My toggles hung down about one foot below the brake set point on the risers! When I pulled down on either toggle, I was in fact pulling the riser itself down! Closer inspection reveled a complete overhand knot at each excess loop pass ring which are located at the top of the risers! I did a few riser flares via the toggles, and figured I was ok making a landing this way. There was basically no wind--I leveled out in riser flair-landing out-doing a slide in landing on the desert floor, with some resulting road rash. (no jump suit) During my walk back to the DZ, I rationalized what he had to have done. After he brought the excess lower steering line loop through the "riser top-excess line pass ring," he then passed the "entire toggle/line" through the loop! After this the excess lower steering line was brought down normally to the set point where the toggle nose was passed through it before being put into the steering line brake set loop. If you can envision this, you can see that it would look totally normal, with no "apparent condition" that would result in a knot forming around the loop pass ring, after toggle/brake release. Yes, as the packer of this canopy, I take total responsibility for this incident, for assuming that an experienced jumper with 600 jumps would know how to set the brakes! He never asked me about the excess line pass ring/method, so maybe this along with his "claimed" 600 jumps sent a subconscious ok message to me. Lesson again learned--Always question the validity of the obvious! Dave Brownell Mesa, Arizona

There are varying degrees to the "placebo effect." Dave Brownell

I never said there was a QC problem-read my post again--But if this person's claim is true, I would be "suspect" of a QC issue. Dave Brownell

Of course Precision still makes the Crossfire--just overlooked the line--wonder where this claim came from? Dave Brownell

Kelli said-- Actually, I heard this this weekend from someone who had to have his Crossfire sent back for this exact same problem. The seams were sewn about a 1/2 inch out of tolerance on his, it appears that Precision who no longer makes the Icarus' due to their own new line of canopies was not doing quality control or something like that. Kelli DB--I believe the jury's out on this for now--"if" there is a QC or design problem, I believe it will be resolved. I did "hear" there was a nose design change on the Crossfire some time ago-(don't know when or details. Dave Brownell

The following was posted on rec.skydiving, on the "Crossfire design flaw" thread, and the "Tube Stows/Line Dump" thread on which Rastro replied with a short thread ending with a personal insult aimed at myself. Rastro's post--as said-(posted originally on the Tube Stows/Line Dump thread. >Mr. Brownell, >You are of course right about the insult. I apologize. >(never drink and post at the same time) I have no problem in forgiving, as we are all in fact, only "little-nano-guys" in the total scheme of things. >I am however, somewhat bothered by some of the statements >that you occasionally make to the NG regarding equipment from >various manufacturers. The most recent being: that the Crossfire >has a design flaw. You offer no proof of your allegations and >jump to a conclusion that was very obviously >not supported by the reported facts. There has been no allegation by myself, as this "rumor" has been around long before the Ranch accident. >This type of rumor mongering bordering on libel, does nothing >but attempt to instill panic, fear and distrust. Equipment >manufacturers unfortunately have to deal with "know it all" >types like yourself on a regular basis. It takes an extremely >long time to design, build, test and market parachute equipment >of this complexity. It takes even longer for it to become popular >and to make the manufacturer a profit (if ever). It only takes > a moment and one or two unsupported off the cuff remarks >to do an immense amount of damage, as most jumpers don't >take the time to check the facts for themselves. You have >done this with Flitelines Reflex/grommet issue, >and now you are doing it with the Icarus Crossfire. A "rumor" is just that- a rumor--some are based on "alleged" accurate base line sources, and most are based on many other sources. As far as the Flight-Line grommet issue, I believe I made the correct call, insomuch as all in my circle agreed that Flight Line was dragging it's rear end way beyond the ethical envelope on a critical safety issue they knew was widespread. Maybe two fatalities, close together in time with the same grommet cause would have been a wake up call-but maybe not. I've always believed that over the "long haul" the best policy is at least a "timely" warning that there "may be" a quality control or design issue here that requires immediate attention. In other words-the "timely" grounding of all suspected rigs until inspected/repaired. (not--well it's been five weeks with no reported incidents, but we've been under much increasing pressure, so we mite as well send out a Product Service Bulletin, at least to riggers. >You seem to have a history of giving your opinions and passing >them off as fact, without knowing enough about a situation to >fully disclose the real facts. This is irresponsible and can harm >the manufacturers you target. You yourself are a small >manufacturer of after market components. >Imagine if this sort of thing were directed your way. >How much would you ( as "the little guy" ) suffer? As a matter of fact, vicious slamming has been leveled on myself on this NG many times from those that haven't a clue as to what my background is, or where I'm coming from regarding my alleged theories/claims. No, I'm not a Dr. or even a PHD, even though my father was MIT honor role, but let's face the facts guys, the consciousness of the parachute industry is a far cry from MIT, Cal Tech, or Lockheed Martin. I'm not trying to put down the parachute industry, but considering the above fact, I think it has evolved to the "relatively" high level of performance/reliability due to much hard work, and of course the tried and proven methods of trial and error evolution/fine tuning. (and of course, talent, and "some" edu) >Think about that the next time you wish to see your name in print. >It appears you want to play in the same league as the major >manufacturers by offering opinions on subjects that you seem >only minimally qualified to comment on. All manufacturers out >there would urge you to "get out there and do it for yourself" >to fully understand the ramifications of shooting from the hip. As far as going out there and doing it for myself, there is test jumping in progress on several canopies with my new design slider, along with other methods in my "physical slider model." I'm receiving good feedback on the openings. (eight new prototype sliders under construction this week-ten more soon) >I think you owe George Galloway and Icarus, as well as the >NG an apology for jumping the gun again. I do offer my apology to George and Icarus regarding the second paragraph in my topic/post; as in retrospect, I was jumping the gun. As far as the Flight-Line grommet issue is concerned, my earlier statement stands. As far as any apology to the news group ('s)--what about the apology ('s) it owes myself? Dave Brownell

Post deleted by alan

This could be a case of "all of the above." When I say all, there are very many factors as we all know, any one of which being slightly different, would have changed the outcome for the better--(or a worse crash. My sympathy goes out to Lisa's family and friends. I really wonder if this pond swooping thing is worth the risk? After all, the main purpose for a ram-air parachute is to deliver one to terra firma in one piece--preferably alive! Just my .02 worth Dave Brownell

Bob said-- Sounds like you are the one trying to start a rumor. One fatality which was related to rotors coming off the trees and you ASSume their is a design flaw. Real scientific approach you have there. DB> I said "there has been rumor" that there is a design flaw. It is yourself that is ASSuming I came up with the statement "design flaw," which is not the case. Also, what do you know about the source--nothing. GAL, Dave Brownell

Apoil said-- Nil wind doesn't mean nil turbulence. Funny things happen up there. DB--I agree--more input to this same topic/thread at "Skydiving Talk Back." Dave Brownell

Crossfire design flaw? There has been rumor that the Icarus Crossfire has a design flaw in the nose design which can cause it to collapse during very aggressive front riser turns. The accident/fatality at the Ranch last Sunday seems to confirm this. (almost nil wind/turbulence. Dave Brownell

Crossfire design flaw? There has been rumor that the Icarus Crossfire has a design flaw in the nose design which can cause it to collapse during very aggressive front riser turns. The accident/fatality at the Ranch last Sunday seems to confirm this. (almost nil wind/turbulence. Dave Brownell

It's a square round! db

My experience at Elsinore last year was great--did many points on 8--10 ways. Great people-staff-"except Monday morning." (after a good night sleep in my trailer) Story-- A few days before I towed my travel trailer from Phoenix to California, I had a local auto repair shop change out the trans and rear end oil in my Dodge Dakota to a synthetic oil that I supplied. (should have done myself) I then drove to LA metro with my trailer in tow with no problem. Two days later (Sat AM) I drove to Elsinore and parked my trailer at the DZ. Later that night I drove into town in search of a restaurant. It was at this time that I heard a low level "howl" coming from what I thought was the drive line. My first thought was that maybe low oil in the rear end as the result of a mechanic screw-up. I went to an 'almost closed' service station where I ran into a volunteer that went under my truck and checked the rear end oil. (I didn't want to get dirty, if not needed, of course) When he put his little pinky into the oil port he had to put it in all the way angled down to find any oil!--the oil on his finger was black and burned! We then added more than one quart of gear lube to bring it up to norm! I knew there was major damage-nitriting on gears-history--but I hoped it would "hang in there" from Elsinore to Phoenix via San Diego, which it did, with much noise at the end. (500+ miles!) Now, getting back to Elsinore on Monday morning. I got up fairly early, and was returning from the wash room when I came across a jumper on the porch of one of the trailers in the packing-creeper area. I have no idea who he was, but I did in passing "morning--how ya doing"--his response-ok--my response- I wish I could say the same--I've got a blown rear end in my truck as the result of a mechanic's screw up-hopefully it will make it back to Phoenix. His response was--not my fu&#ing problem. (I just walked away) His response just again confirms my belief that "most" DZ's have the element of low life, skygod dirt. The bigger the DZ--the bigger "percentage" of this element--sad for the sport-- Dave Brownell Mesa, AZ

As far as cut-away cable being used for a pin in a throw out system, I think it would be ok as long as there was a small guide ring attached to the flap close to the grommet. It's purpose would be to ensure that the cable was pulled on the same plane as the grommet, thus not lifting on the closing loop during pull, causing more loop wear. The required pull force would also be less with a guide ring. I would not depend on the cover flap for this purpose. Dave Brownell Mesa, AZ

Line stows-line dump--an earlier post I recommend no less than 2 1/2" bites for the locking stows and not less than 3" bites for the last four stows, with the bands wrapped twice if needed. As far as Tube Stows are concerned, you may want to do a Double Larks head knot, as this will make for a tighter stow without double wrapping the line bite. (see "tighter" or "tightest" on Tube Stow instruction sheet) Aside from poor line stowing methods, the other negative factors in line dump are large pilot chutes and light weight canopies, as both these factors will mean higher bag acceleration away from the jumper. This results in the stowed lines pulling on the stows harder during bag launch, possibly resulting in their premature release (line dump) if not stowed properly. Large pilot chutes also increase the percentages of fast/hard openings for other reasons other than line dump. I'm currently jumping an Atair Cobalt 135 with a 21" ZP pilot chute that I made. (400+ jumps on PC) I recommend quartering the slider. Dave Brownell Mesa/Eloy, AZ

I'd stay away from Skydive Snohomish, as the airport owners only allow D licensed jumpers to land in the main landing area--the alternate is several miles away! I'd recommend Kapowsin Air Sports, which is south east of Seattle. Also, Mount Rainier is less than twenty miles to the east--awesome view in free fall. Dave Brownell Mesa, AZ

The main problem/flaw with the FXC-12000 is the poor design of the aneroid controlled valve at the end of the hose. FXC can't be totally blamed for this, because they didn't design it. Dave Brownell

Round parachutes are like tail draggers--they never die! Dave Brownell C-180 jump pilot/skydiver

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