MyTwoCents

Hey, For fuck's sake people, it's not that hard. If you're going to take the effort to put an add up on the classifieds and sell your BASE gear, you need to take fifteen minutes to do a background check. That means you ask if they have BASE experience already. If they do, you check their references. You never have to go more than two degrees of separation to end up with a BASE jumper you know personally or has a solid reputation. If they don't have BASE experience, you need at least two of the following three things:A confirmation from an FJC provider that shows they have signed up for a course in the near future. A confirmation from a local mentor who is willing to teach them and has sufficient experience to be a mentor (which you check through their own background check). A quick phone call to the buyer's dropzone to ask what kind of person they are, and what kind of skydiving they've been doing for the past hundred jumps. If you can't even do these basic things do this, please don't sell your canopy. For all you know, you may sell a loaded gun to a lunatic. And I'm not concerned about them shooting themselves, I'm concerned about them burning my local objects. Common sense people...

Hey, For fuck's sake people, it's not that hard. If you're going to take the effort to put an add up on the classifieds and sell your BASE gear, you need to take fifteen minutes to do a background check. That means you ask if they have BASE experience already. If they do, you check their references. You never have to go more than two degrees of separation to end up with a BASE jumper you know personally or has a solid reputation. If they don't have BASE experience, you need at least two of the following three things:A confirmation from an FJC provider that shows they have signed up for a course in the near future. A confirmation from a local mentor who is willing to teach them and has sufficient experience to be a mentor (which you check through their own background check). A quick phone call to the buyer's dropzone to ask what kind of person they are, and what kind of skydiving they've been doing for the past hundred jumps. If you can't even do these basic things, please don't sell your canopy. For all you know, you may sell a loaded gun to a lunatic. And I'm not concerned about them shooting themselves, I'm concerned about them burning my local objects. Common sense people... Tom, can you make this sticky?

Me neither. I have friends that have never skydived (nor have an interest ever getting into BASE) that groundcrew for me. Not at all, but I expect other things from my groundcrew. Mostly, I need to know you well to be sure you can handle the situation it things goes wrong. Secondly, if you have even the slightest inkling of wanting to get into BASE yourself, you'll need to show a lot more than "having read BASE wiki" before I will let you GC or show you my "jump sites".

No offense, but what part of "

I'll continue the discussion about "Body Armor/No Brain Mentality" here, instead of in the Austria thread, since this thread seems relevant. Interestingly, Robibird and I had a similar discussion about a year ago, but with the roles reversed. In that discussion, it was me (jokingly) arguing whether or not our gear has made us safer: To which Robi replied: ***Following this theory we would be end up being in middle century time still

With all due respect Robi, your post makes me sad. Why are discussions on protection always presented as an either-or thing? Can't we have both? Armor and skill. You don't see experienced Nascar drivers get into their car without a helmet, laughing at the newbies with their confidence boosting protection. Instead, they collectively agree that protection is a good thing, and build comments like: "having experience and skill is a must" on top of that. You don't see free solo climbers laugh at those that use rope, making comments like: "if you were a skilled climber, you wouldn't need rope." Instead, the climbing community collectively agrees that wearing a helmet and using a rope is a smart idea. They also agree that skill and preparation are a must as well. I know of at least one recent fatality where body armor, a full face helmet and a vented canopy could very well have made for a significantly different outcome. I know of at least three people who came out of an object strike with zero injuries, thanks to their choice of gear. At least two of these jumpers had great skills too, but as many agree: sometimes, shit just happens. Allow me to rewrite your post a tiny bit, for the sake of argument... Sounds reasonable, right? Yet using skydiving gear for BASE jumps is considered a foolish choice by most contemporary BASE jumpers. What about the tailgate? Damn those new kids on the block who think they are invincible to line-overs and can't even properly use the Line Release Mod. We should make sure all beginners jump without a tailgate for their first hundred jumps. That way they won't feel invincible and learn to use the LRM. The thing is, we have many gear improvements that have been proven in the field. Body armor, vented canopies and full-face helmets are some of them. There is simply no reason to jump solid slider-down objects without body armor, a full-face helmet and a vented canopy. I know, you're making a point about people wearing body armor and using that as an excuse for their jumping behavior and sense of protection. But let's not blame the armor. Instead, let's assume the armor is a given and shows an intelligent choice. Once that's established, let's talk about attitude and beginner skills. Also, let me state that I think that certain jumps can be made within relative safety without body armor. You won't hear me judge if you do long slider up tracking flights without any armor. Neither will you hear me judge if you jump a friendly span in t-shirts and shorts. However, I cringe every time I see a new video on MySpace, YouTube or SkydivingMovies, with a bunch of high fiving yahoos jumping in t-shirts and shorts, all having a blast together. Put differently, anybody visiting my town and interested in jumping my local slider down cliff better bring a vented canopy and body armor. If not, you'll have to find somebody else to show you where the exit point is. Harsh? Maybe, but I don't want to have to drag dead bodies out the canyon. But can't you still die even with vents and body armor? Sure you can, but you have to try a lot harder. Let's try some made-up statistics. These are totally pulled out of thin air. They are meant to get people thinking. Jumper categorization: Group A: Unskilled jumpers without body armor: 30% Group B: Skilled jumpers without body armor: 30% Group C: Unskilled jumpers with body armor: 20% Group D: Skilled jumpers with body armor: 20% Chance of dying on object strike: Group A: 90% Group B: 30% Group C: 60% Group D: 10% How much damage can we expect: Group A: 90 * 30 = 2700 Group B: 30 * 30 = 900 Group C: 60 * 20 = 1200 Group D: 10 * 20 = 200 Total damage: 5000 If you haven't dismissed this as pointless math yet, what can we learn from this? First, what group should we worry about the most? It's pretty obvious; we should focus on group A, train them to be more skilled, and get them to wear body armor. However, there is a second lesson. Body armor is a much easier thing to obtain than skill. You just put down some money and you got it, no repeated training necessary. Most will discount this as a bad thing, but I'll argue that the stats above show that we can very easily reduce damages. How? Well, imagine everybody started wearing body armor tomorrow: Group A: 90 * 0 = 0 Group B: 30 * 0 = 0 Group C: 60 * 50 = 3000 Group D: 10 * 50 = 500 Total damage: 3500 Voila, just by putting on some body armor, we can reduce the amount of damage that's being done. Does that mean that we don't need to train people and require them to have certain skills? Of course not, we should all strife for perfection in our body and canopy flight skills. Does that mean that people jumping the Perrine or the tall European towers should all wear body armor and jump vented canopies? Of course not, those are different types of jumps. However, it does mean that we have an opportunity to set an example. And that includes gear manufacturers, instructors and mentors leading the way and showing that body armor can be a good idea. In fact, it's one of many good ideas a BASE jumper will have to make within a sound and conservative risk management strategy. BASE specific gear, tailgates, vented canopies, armor, full face helmets, sturdy boots, obstacle avoidance drills, skydiving experience, sound judgement, etcetera, etcetera. A dumbass wearing body armor is still a dumbass, even when he takes it off...

Can you elaborate on this Robi?

Try this for a while. "Contact the locals" is a well known rule for all BASE jumpers. I don't buy for a second that anybody can learn to become a BASE jumper and not have heard of this rule, or not understand why it makes sense. The BASE community has one of the lowest degrees of separation of any community. If you can't find the locals, you're either not trying hard enough or you're about to open up a new object.

Dude, it's a conspiracy. Somebody is trying to set you up.

I presume this is meant tongue in cheek? Armor saves lives. It saddens me to see so many BASE jumpers still jumping in t-shirts with shitty skydiving helmets. Body armor, a full-face helmet and a vented canopy ought to be considered an obvious thing for anybody jumping slider-down solid objects. As far as I've been told by eye-witnesses and the jumper himself, he didn't really have anything out beyond his pilotchute. For all intents and purposes, he hit as hard as he would have without a parachute. That's a bit of an overstatement. By all means his recovery was faster than anybody expected, but as far as I know it took several weeks before he got out of bed.

Isn't that part of the reason many of us jump?

As mentioned, Lonnie is the best guy to get in touch with (After Collin, but he's hard to reach. Talked to him on the phone about some Paratech pilotchutes about a year ago, but haven't heard from him since). Thing I wanted to point out is that there exist some older Paratech velcro rigs that have unstiffened side flaps. I had one for a while, but only jumped it once. If you go severely headlow and have a loose fitting packjob, the side flaps will just crumble along with the shrivel flap instead of it peeling off. Just something you want to check for (that the side flaps are stiffened, should be easy to fix).

I've done a few jumps on a Softcock and it's as comfortable as my Vision I'd say. Not sure if you'll be able to get one though, ping Ray Losli.

That's a little harsher than I think is appropriate at this point in time. Remember, people lost somebody they deeply cared about. Let us all take a few days or weeks to reflect on what happened, cry until there are no tears left, and look to each other for support. Although I believe in the black death factor this sport carries, I think it only applies a priori. Hindsight often does present food for thought, and I do hope that we can try to learn something from this in the future. To the UK crew; I'm sorry guys. This fucking sucks.

Don't watch the news much do you? Are you aware how many people are in jail for a long time because they smoked weed or did mushrooms?

In all fairness, I think Jeb's jump in New York City had probably more to do with the suggested law than the HIDGAF jump in California. I doubt the senator has ever seen the bike jump video, but I'm reasonably confident he has followed the aftermath of Jeb's jump. That doesn't make Jeb's jump worse than the bike jump in my book, but we shouldn't run and blame HIDGAF immediately either. I showed Radix to several non-jumping friends and we were all rolling over the floor laughing, similar to how I can enjoy Jackass in the theatre (judge all you want, but Hollywood choreagraphed stupidity makes me chuckle and if you disagree I'll just say you're a snob). I do think that the bike jump deserves higher penalties than jumps that follow the backpacker's credo, but if extrapolating the former results in higher punishment for the latter, fault lies mostly (albeit not entirely) with the legislators who can't see a difference between simple trespassing or damaging property. The question then is, is my chuckle and HIDGAFs video whoredom worth the risk? I'd say that it has so far, although I'll admit that more care may be justified in the future. I think Lifewithoutanet said it right. There's really not much happening yet, and writing letters is only going to add fuel to a fire that is almost dead anyway. Besides, I'm struggling to understand what would be in such a letter. How about this... Dear legislator, Please don't make trespassing a felony. I know it's against the law and not entirely appropriate, but I'm not harming anybody and just borrowing some altitude. Come one people, it's still trespassing at the end of the day and I, for one, am happy there are laws against it so I don't have to worry about people running around in my house while I'm asleep. What matters are the consequences attached to our petty crimes, and history as recent as Jeb's case has shown that most people still have the brain to put things in perspective. I get significantly more worked up over the existing law against aerial delivery than a D.O.A. proposal against BASE jumping in the middle of the night.

From the article: Comments like that make me sad. I know it's just one guy, and that there are plenty of people who think otherwise. But that there even exists one person who would say such a thing, it's mind boggling. Nobody that has ever seen me jump has had a reaction other than sheer joy and excitement about the fact that such a thing would be possible (cue sarcastic comment about how my poor jumping skills do in fact frighten people). Even the ones that weren't supposed to see me but just happened to be walking their dog in the middle of the night would come up and say the nicest things. These days, it seems I'm one of the few Europeans that loves America. I'm aware I have a romantic Randian idea of the United States, but nonetheless it's a country that has a special place in my heart. Sadly, the sheer symbolic impact of such a law, should it ever pass, would leave me no choice but to move to Davos. Luckily we still have Canada. That reminds me, I have a packjob to finish. I'm off to my legal cliff... From Nick's post: Can you elaborate on that? I remember a certain quote about having BASE all squared and hummed away like any other past-time such as bowling and horseback riding. What happened in between? For all the bitching and whining I do on these forums, I still think the BASE community on the whole is a great one that treats the sport with the historical values it deserves.

http://www3.telus.net/j_suter/img/018.jpg I'm still sad that wasn't jumpable. It's the perfect diving platform...

Total, and you know it. Note how I also pointed out I'm a shitty pilot. Glad to see you're still reading the forums. I hear Adam R. is looking for a mentor. Should I give him your phone-number?

Either. I've done both many times on skydives and BASE jumps, including the use of slider-up LRM on skydives to simulate full toggle releases (before I had WLOs). My second jump at BD 2005 was an intentional 360 line-twist to WLO toggle release on both sides followed by a rear-riser beach landing in the second circle, if it's worth anything other than bragging points. Alas, apologies for derailing the thread. To me the more important lesson is that I'm not going to tie my square canopy to a car, cut-away or not. Enough people have died doing this on a windy and boring Sunday afternoon.

I know. It's one of those days. There was a time when one jumper could call another jumper a fucking tool and both of them would listen carefully in the hope of learning something. When did we all become a bunch of sissies? Where is the Ray Losli wisdom when you need it? My point is; I can't believe people are still breaking legs over rear risers landings. There is no excuse for doing so except in a tremendously small amount of landing areas that 99 percent of jumpers will not ever have to land in anyway. Failing to properly execute a rear riser landing is failing to properly understand the history and motivation of the LRM is failing to give a sport the attention it requests. I'll add that the Perrine is not a good place to try a rear-riser landing for the first time. Try a dropzone.

Jup, and skydiving is different than BASE jumping.

Last I heard, combining square canopies with engine towing is asking for disaster. I'm sure somebody else will confirm this or dispel it as an urban legend. Sorry, but I consider that bullshit. I've said this a million times, and I'll say it again; landing a BASE canopy on rear risers is the easiest thing on the world. Anybody who biffs in at the Perrine while flaring with rear risers is a fucking tool and shouldn't have jumped in the first place. Btw, I'm a shitty pilot.

Hey, were you part of the crew that tried to corrupt me in a Bridge Day 2005 hotel room? I've had a great FDC since and Yuri has been excellent mentor, albeit remotely. I hope I'll run into you and the crew again some day, cause I got some pancakes that need powdered sugar. Unless, of course, this is a case of mistaken identity. Pipe and a pancake? Jaap

While I don't necessarily agree with the sentiment, I can somewhat understand where it comes from. BASE jumpers talk a lot about understanding how BASE can affect your life. If an injury affects your decision to jump, you wonder if you really understood what you got into in the first place. Personally I've come to the conclusion that no amount of thought, talking, experience and other preparation can get a person to understand what they're getting into, which is why I will have the utmost respect for somebody who busts himself up or loses a friend and says: "damn, I didn't realize it could suck this much. I'm done with it." But the question remains, getting hurt is part of BASE. Try to prepare and cope, but as long as you deal with it chin-up, no BASE jumper will look down on you.